Sustainer Ideas

[thisbirdyoucannotchange]

I don't know if these are stupid questions or not. I'm sure they've been discussed, it's just that 180 pages is a lot to read through.

I've already made the amp and driver but how to I circuit it into the guitar?

What do I do with the - side of the battery?

One side of the driver is connected to the output on the amp, but what is the other side grounded to?

What does the input of the amp connect to?

I guess once I got the system made, I've been having trouble figuring out how to actually install it. Could someone please point me in the right direction

[Avalon]

Well you can input directly into the Ruby/Fet from your guitar jack (i have my imput on the Ruby/Fet as a 1/4" jack socket for ease of use), but it works better if you bypass the guitar controls, i did this by adding a second jack to my guitar.

You need to take the signal straight from the bridge pickup, the best way to do this is from the pickup selector, where the pickup is wired into.

You'll need a spare 1/4" jack socket (or two if you want one on the Ruby/Fet), and some single core shielded wire.

Soldier the wire to the same contact your pickup hot wire is connected to on the selector, and the shielding wire to any local shielding point (like the case of the pickup selector (if its metal lol)), then put the 1/4" jack socket on the other end of the wire, same again, wire to the input of the socket, shielding to the shielding contact.

If you need anymore help, just ask mate

[thisbirdyoucannotchange]

I was thinking it was something like that. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

What about the driver? I've got it connected to the ruby/fet, but does the other side need to be ground to anything in partictular? What about the negative side of the battery?

[Avalon]

The negative side of the battery also go's the the ground on the Ruby/Fet.

The driver go's from the output and the ground, the positive go's to the output of the Ruby, the negative to the ground.

[psw]

Welcome... thisbirdyoucannotchange

Another one on the way...

I'm sure they've been discussed, it's just that 180 pages is a lot to read through.

Well, yes...but with every one who shares there experiences we get a little closer to standardising this project. I don't think anyone should attempt to read the whole thread

Avalon is right, however, always test with the controls full up and use an amp to listen for distortions and such that you might not hear acoustically...

Also, test the system thoroughly, holding the driver over the strings away from pickups. In the end, when it is installed you will be taking a feed directly from the bridge pickup and this will work a little better. Also, you will be disconnecting any other pickups completely when the system is on so that you will be able to get the driver into the neck position...

Test the circuit as well, with a small speaker to see that it is working before testing with the driver...

Good luck, let us know how you go... pete

[thisbirdyoucannotchange]

The ruby/fet works fine, but there's something wrong with the driver. I tried to make it out of an old pickup because I was to lazy to make my own. I'm just gonna try and make another one.

[Innoeliopate]

Hi!

do I need to build driver if i got one pickup which i don't use? it is a single coin made by powersound... nothing special but i think that i can't build nothing better at home

[psw]

Welcome Innoeliopate

A picku-p is very different from a driver and can't be used for a sustainer (otherwise they would, right). Unfortunately, you do have to make one, fortunately it isn't quite so hard as it looks. Perhaps you can get a little help. Alternatively, if you have an old pickupo you can build the thin driver on top as I have done, or strip the wire from a pickup, block up the bottom portion to leave 3mm at the top, and wind the driver on to this. You will need 0.2mm winding wire to do this...

I know the principle looks simple, and it is, but the details (wire, depth of coil, etc) are very important to making it successfully, and most will need to try a few times to get it right...

The circuitry is the other thing, and then installation...how will you be with these aspects?

pete

[Innoeliopate]

wow, so it will be quite harder to do than i thought but I think that I try to make this.

Circut don't look as hard to build, but I'm a beginner in electronic world so we will see

Instalation is the part of construction that i don't think yet. If I done the sustainer without some big problems, then I make a new slot on he back of the guitar body.

Thanks for help psw. If i done my sutainer I'll post some photos and infos 'bout works.

sorry about my english.

[Avalon]

Hi guys, here's the first pics of the Dual Rail Humbucker i've made:

And

Its based on Juán's design from page 178, two 13.5 ohm coils, side-by-side, wired in parallel (first DPDT switch works serial/parallel).

I must say the first signs are very good, in parallel mode, it runs in the neck position with the Ruby/Fet on full power siliently, thats a first for me (not sure about you guys), but also works well at the same gain level as all my previous drivers (easily equal to them at similiar levels), and as importantly, it works in the middle position at the same level of gain without interfearence.

I must say it was abit annoying to build, i built the coils around a 2mm steel core (the thinnest i can find atm), and the coils just about take the 4mm i allowed for them (2mm either side of the core), but its a tight fit.

I finished winding my stacked HB version of the above a couple of hours ago, so i'll be able to see how both designs compair soon enough, but im very impressed the Dual Rail design so far.

[psw]

I must say the first signs are very good, in parallel mode, it runs in the neck position with the Ruby/Fet on full power siliently, thats a first for me (not sure about you guys), but also works well at the same gain level as all my previous drivers (easily equal to them at similiar levels), and as importantly, it works in the middle position at the same level of gain without interfearence.

That's great...you are doing all the experiments that I hoped to do for me...

It does look like it is possible to get the mid-driver going but only if enough skill is used in the building of the driver and the driver is of a good design...

Looking forward to having a bit of a go myself...keep up the good work... pete

[tubab0y]

quick question- does the driver have to be in the neck or would it work fine in the middle or bridge as well?

[zeppelinchld]

tubaboy, i think that you could technically put it anywhere. but i believe the best results were in the neck position but its easier for the magnet to pick up the strings, and you need to keep it away from other pickups. i would put it in the neck pocket and preferably dont use a pickup in the middle, but if you need one in the middle, put a single coil, a humbucker would be to close to the sustainer. you do this because i believe it has something to do w/ EMI. i might be wrong though so i would wait for another responce to your question.

while im here i would like to ask why we are trying to make a humbucker sustainer? whats wrong w/ the single coil. i think that the humbucker version looks way cooler. i like the look of avalons by the way. i know that you guys hav been working a different humbucker styles, but why? is there a major flaw w/ the single coil? i dont think it hums or anything does it?

[Avalon]

Well the humbuckers cancel some of the EMI, in the last one i made (Dual Rail style), which runs in parallel mode, its silient compaired to a single coil pickup, abit trickier to make though.

Also while im here, I've been testing my 2x13.5ohm stacked HB last night, and it doesn't work half as well as the Dual Rails, not even as well as my previous Stacked HB, which is a shame, but this particular design might not suit the stacked format, i'll have to do a few more tests before i can right off the Stacked design.

But for now atleast, the Dual Rail seems the way to go.

I should also add my Ruby/Fet is now modified to incorperate the extra parts from Pete's "Champ" circuit, which i think helps too.

Edit: my circuit now looks like this:

Edited April 28, 2007 by Avalon

[col]

But for now at least, the Dual Rail seems the way to go.

As I suspected, but it's great to know for sure - a real life comparison is always better than 'theory' (hunches and guesswork).

cheers

Col

[psw]

Well the humbuckers cancel some of the EMI, in the last one i made (Dual Rail style), which runs in parallel mode, its silient compaired to a single coil pickup, abit trickier to make though.

I wonder how it really compares as the rail has two 8 ohm coils compared to the stacked drivers 2x4 ohm...or do I have that wrong?

Anyway, I am amazed that you were able to make two 8 ohm coils in the rail size even thinner than my single...any tips?

Otherwise, some valuable research all the same and bodes well for future development. The added filtering in the LM386 circuit is designed to address possible high frequency oscillation within the circuit and is specified for high output applications in the chip's application notes.

For the new comers, this thread explores all kinds of sustainer ideas and lately, refinements on our working DIY model...

tubaboy (welcome ), i think that you could technically put it anywhere. but i believe the best results were in the neck position but its easier for the magnet to pick up the strings, and you need to keep it away from other pickups.

When in operation the bridge pickup is used so the driver needs to be as far away fom this source as possible, obviously the neck position, but it is conceivably possible to reverse this scheme for the device to run from the neck pickup and have the driver in the bridge position. It has been suggested but not really tried yet, and there may be some problems such as the need to run it with more power, if it were tried...

while im here i would like to ask why we are trying to make a humbucker sustainer? whats wrong w/ the single coil. i think that the humbucker version looks way cooler. i like the look of avalons by the way. i know that you guys hav been working a different humbucker styles, but why? is there a major flaw w/ the single coil? i dont think it hums or anything does it?

The single coil sustainer is the simplest and easiest to build and works pretty well. The desire to improve the device has been in the area of EMI reduction. Most find that there is a little distortion (fizz) with the single coil design, however it is easily masked (listen to the recordings) and so the single coil driver is an easy introduction to building this and worthwhile if you wanted to convert a single coil neck pickup for instance. A dual coil driver is more difficult to make but offers better EMI reduction meaning that potentially you could run it with more power and or closer to other pickups. One hope is to make a mid pickup driver on say, strat type guitars. There are lots of benefits to this scheme, one that I am attracted to is the possiblility of easier installation (wherein the need for complicated bypassing and pickup isolation is eliminated) and the potential to use the bridge, neck or both pickups in sustainer operation...

Even if the sustainer is to be kept to the neck position, the dual coil designs are probably superior, though far more difficult to make and you will loose the pickup/driver possibility with single coil neck pickups. Most, if not all experimenters have built a simple single coil to get started and practice driver building, the circuitry remains the same, so it is easy to try out different designs and compare them as Avalon has been doing...

pete

[zeppelinchld]

though far more difficult to make and you will loose the pickup/driver possibility with single coil neck pickups.pete

would it be possible to adapt a normal humbucker to a humbucker driver, using the same technique as the single coil/driver?

[mrjstudios]

A few very important questions:

1.) Is the best placement for the sustainer right under about where the 24th fret mark would be (about the midstring point lengthwise)?

2.) Can 2 single pickups be permanently wired and stuck next to eachother so that they act as a humbucker? (and cancel out hum, etc. and essentially become 1 humbucker?) (I know this sort of thing is used on modern strats of all types on switch settings 2 and 4 to reduce noise, but the singles are not right next to eachother.)

Thanks in advance!!!

Once I get my sustainer guitar body done (except paint) and playable I'll post some progress shots. (I just need to route out the pickup / sustainer cavities and the rear access panels.)

-MRJ STUDIOS

[Avalon]

Well the humbuckers cancel some of the EMI, in the last one i made (Dual Rail style), which runs in parallel mode, its silient compaired to a single coil pickup, abit trickier to make though.

I wonder how it really compares as the rail has two 8 ohm coils compared to the stacked drivers 2x4 ohm...or do I have that wrong?

Anyway, I am amazed that you were able to make two 8 ohm coils in the rail size even thinner than my single...any tips?

pete

8ohms would have been far less hassle lol, it has 2, 13.5ohm coils, one on the north blade one on the south, 3mm high, 64mm wide (wrapped around a 56mm wide core) and 8mm deep per coil.

It doesn't quite fit into one of my single coil covers, but is the same size as it (so just about fits our single coil size requirement).

The down side of it is the construction, making the bobbin so small was quite tricky (and would probably benifit from being made from something alittle stronger then plastic if we reach a final design at some stage), but winding it was very tricky.

I made each side as a seperate coil/blade ready to be joined to the other half, as i couldn't think of anyway to wind them joined, and winding around something so small and fiddlely as you can imagine is tricky.

I think if i can track down some 1mm steel for the cores, this will take just enough width off it to fit it within my single coil casing, i might also try some 0.18mm wire, it was mentioned a couple of pages ago that this wire seems to work well on the thinner strings, and would also decrease the coil size ever so slightly (every little helps ).

If the thinner wire does help with the thinner strings, i might try a DR-HB with a 0.18mm wound north coil, and a 0.20mm wound south coil (both to the same ohms) to see if that has any merit.

though far more difficult to make and you will loose the pickup/driver possibility with single coil neck pickups.pete

would it be possible to adapt a normal humbucker to a humbucker driver, using the same technique as the single coil/driver?

Well im pretty sure it would work, just not sure how well, the distance between each coil and core is a possible reason it wouldn't be that effective, as the coils might be working against each other instead of with each other.

But the is nothing stopping you trying it, if you wound 8ohms on each core, wired them in parallel it would be of a similiar setup to the single coils, and if it doesn't work that well, just disconnect the south coil and you have a 8ohm single coil driver on the north (like in the guide).

A few very important questions:

1.) Is the best placement for the sustainer right under about where the 24th fret mark would be (about the midstring point lengthwise)?

2.) Can 2 single pickups be permanently wired and stuck next to eachother so that they act as a humbucker? (and cancel out hum, etc. and essentially become 1 humbucker?) (I know this sort of thing is used on modern strats of all types on switch settings 2 and 4 to reduce noise, but the singles are not right next to eachother.)

Thanks in advance!!!

Once I get my sustainer guitar body done (except paint) and playable I'll post some progress shots. (I just need to route out the pickup / sustainer cavities and the rear access panels.)

-MRJ STUDIOS

1.) Yes in theory, i think the closer the driver is to the fretboard the better really, atleast until a fully working driver is developed for any possition, there are exceptions to the rule (as was being discussed a couple of pages back), but generally speaking, the closer to the 12th fret the better and the futher away from the bridge pickup the better.

2.)Not cetain on this, but i think in theory yes , both coils would need to be the same rating (or very very similiar), and wired to work as a humbucker obviously, but as i said, not 100% certain on this.

And best of luck with the guitar mate

[col]

i might also try some 0.18mm wire, it was mentioned a couple of pages ago that this wire seems to work well on the thinner strings, and would also decrease the coil size ever so slightly (every little helps ).

actually, it should make quite a noticable difference - compared with 0.2 wire, 0.18 should be about 0.8 x the size...

compared with 0.23, 0.18 is roughly 0.6 the size.

My reasoning when I originally suggested having two parallel 16ohm coils was that 0.15 wire would give about the same overall mass of wire as using two 0.23 coils in series - whether this is significant or not is another question, but I reckon going as low as 0.15 wire should be ok for parallel wired 16ohm coils... maybe the reason Juán ended up with 13.5 ohm coils was because with the slightly thicker wire he was using, 16ohm was too much mass...

13.5 ohm using 0.18 wire is just slightly more wire mass than 16ohm using 0.15 wire.

2 x 16 ohm coils 0.15 wire

2 x 13.5 ohm coils 0.18 wire

2 x 4 ohm coils 0.23 wire

All 3 of these use almost the same mass of copper wire !

Col

[JoeUK]

I think if i can track down some 1mm steel for the cores, this will take just enough width off it to fit it within my single coil casing,

Hi Avalon,

I'm building Juan's twin core, parralel driver (just trying to find the right size magnet to go between the blades), and used some pc blanking strips (the steel panels you use to blank off the expabsion slots), which were 1mm.

I was thinking (yeah...could be dangerous), could you use Juan's parralel design but in build a stacked single coil driver configuration. Or do you think using 1 core for both coils may re-introduce emi?

Ideally I'd like to make as thin a driver as possible and buid it into a body at the end of a overhanging 24 fret fretboard, so it would almost look like the last fret and be pretty inconspicuous.

Joe

[zfrittz6]

Hola a todos os subo algunas fotos de lo ultimo que he hecho.

bobina cuadruple de 13,5 ohmios cada una con hilo de 0,1 mm.

La bobina funciona perfectamente en la posicion media y cabe en la cavidad de una single coil.

Saludos

[psw]

Some great work being done here...

Juan has done something I tried too...using saw blades (I tried cheap hobby coping saw blades) for cores. These are very magnetic but usually hardened and a little hard to cut (may be able to snap them in a vice though). There must be a limit to the thiness of the core I feel, you have to have some mass to them I imagine...an air coil definitely doesn't work...

Another possible design would be to have an inner coil with some thin steel separating it form another coil around the outside. So, an active inner coil around a magnetic core and a secondary core on either side with another coil over the top of that, if that makes sense. This would make three blades and the outer coil would be smaller for the same resistance because it would be wrapped around the larger inner coil...just a thought...

A few very important questions:

1.) Is the best placement for the sustainer right under about where the 24th fret mark would be (about the midstring point lengthwise)?

In testing, the driver will work in a wide range of positions. The harmonic drive is effected to some degree by it's placement along the strings length, but this changes too with the fretting of notes anyway that changes the effective string length. In some ways a bridge driver would be more predictable, but perhaps not that practical.

The main reason for the neck position placement is to maximise distance between the driver and the source (bridge) pickup. The effect of a driver close to a pickup is exactly the same as putting a mic into a speaker cabinet, uncontroled microphonic squeel...not good. Some distance is essential, but improved driver design and efficiency will alow closer proximity and less chance of distortions.

2.) Can 2 single pickups be permanently wired and stuck next to eachother so that they act as a humbucker? (and cancel out hum, etc. and essentially become 1 humbucker?) (I know this sort of thing is used on modern strats of all types on switch settings 2 and 4 to reduce noise, but the singles are not right next to eachother.)

Yes...BUT! This kind of thing has been done in the past with varied results. A typical single coil pickup is quite different in magnetic structure to a humbucker. As soon as the two SC get close like this, their magnets (they will need to be reverse polarity and reverse wound to eachother for the humbucking effect) will be attracted to each other. This will effect their tone (even if one coil is turned off) and they wont sound like a humbucker either. That is not to say it is going to sound bad. The other thing is that single coils have a magnetic field that is aimed directly at the strings. If they get too close they will effect the vibration of the metal string, causing "wolf tones" typical in strats if the pickups are adjusted too close to the strings. Humbuckers usually work well close to the strings and because the magnetic fields are attracted to eachother and the placement of the magnet between the cores below the pickup allow for this.

Thanks in advance!!!

Once I get my sustainer guitar body done (except paint) and playable I'll post some progress shots. (I just need to route out the pickup / sustainer cavities and the rear access panels.)

-MRJ STUDIOS

Beware...many have tried this and have dramatically jumped the gun. Always build the device before committing to an installation or a specific application. The routing out of a guitar for a device that isn't made and fully tested is sure to be problematic. So, build the proposed device and fully test it on another guitar before making this commitment...

I tried with the hex designs to make a very narrow driver that could fit next to a pickup but have abandoned this technology for now in favour of these more conventional coils. I was interested in the possibility of stacked designs as I felt that it could offer some hope for a narrow compact driver. A single coil driver can be made quite a bit thinner than a single coil, as Avalon's dual coil rail driver and Juan's work shows, but it does take some skill and experimentation. Another option for a stealthy approach is my technique of combining the driver with the pickup. That way you get the driver and the pickup where you want it, it looks like a pickup, is adjustable and shares the same magnet/s and so adds no more magnetic force upon the strings (effecting vibration) and reduces costs and size.

It is great to see all this work on new designs and reassessing things like the wire guage for these new designs. There is a lot of trial and error to come up with something good. We are however getting closer to things like the mid driver, and I am just wondering now which approach I will be adopting for my new strat when I finally get around to it. Then there is the circuit, I really want to make a new preamp with switching of harmonic function before the poweramp...anyone with ideas on this, I think col had something at one stage...

Keep on sustaining... pete

[mrjstudios]

Don't worry -- the routing I am doing is standard, so any sustainer shape that I end up using will fit. By the way -- I do have a working sustainer, so it HAS been tested extensively on another guitar, so I am about 99% shure that is the final shape and size anyway.

I'm thinking that if I adjust the magnets on my 2 single strat pickups to point at eachother, glue the 2 singles next to eachother -- and with you guy's help wire them so that they cancel out eachothers' hum, I might be able to make a "mock humbucker." I know the tone would be unique -- (possibly horrible) but do you all think a device like this is a possibility?

Also, to address PSW's idea of the harmonic switch / mode before the poweramp: that sounds like a great idea. I may be able to figure out and test that mod on a Fetzer / Ruby amp. Other than increase 'stability' in the harmonic mode (kill some distortion), what would be the other benefits of this mod though?

I was also wondering, could a delay (or any other effect) be added into the signal chain either right before or right after the power amp to create some "sustainer effects" that would ultimately change how the thing makes the strings vibrate? As long as the frequency remained constant, wouldn't even a pre distorted or flanged sustainer signal vibrate the strings?

If this would work, this could definitely make for some interesting new sustainer sounds.

-MRJ STUDIOS

[psw]

Don't worry

ok I wont, and having done the tests required, you are well on the way. For alkl the work I have done I still use a basic single coil driver and preamp/amp combination (though not the fetzer/ruby), there isn't any hocus pocus there...

Also, to address PSW's idea of the harmonic switch / mode before the poweramp: that sounds like a great idea. I may be able to figure out and test that mod on a Fetzer / Ruby amp. Other than increase 'stability' in the harmonic mode (kill some distortion), what would be the other benefits of this mod though?

OK...I have some other ideas that haven't been fully explored but recent work by you guys have made more and more approachable...

Col has made a circuit/preamp that incorporates a "feed forward" compressor that increases efficiency and evens out the response of the device which is pretty cool. It also adds 4 different "modes" instead of the two on the basic circuit...

There is also a need to develop a basic circuit to replace the F/R solution I believe...

The reasoning behind the preamp with harmonic/phase control rather than just swaping the driver leads around with a phase switch is this... The driver leads are effectively an extention of the coil. As we know, the coil gives off EMI (bad) and so too do the leads to some extent. You don't want these high current leads to be threaded through your control cavities or anywhere near your pickups ideally. But, while there harmonic switch and typically the circuitry is located there typically this is in part unavoidable. In my guitar for instance, I have made a separate cavity behind the output jack and threaded the driver leads through the trem cavity...

Now, if the control is all done with at the preamp, the poweramp could be located separately near or even incorportated inside the driver itself, adding to efficiency and keeping the guitar free of EMI potential wiring. Also, the preamp will be smaller and moduar as a result and easier to fit into a guitar...

Combine this with a mid driver and you could have a driver/poweramp combination with a small preamp and controls mounted inside the guitar or in a compact box with the battery and no need for bypass switching and complicated wiring. You will also get the opportunity to source a signal from either and/or the neck pickup which is likely to give a range of different responses and harmonic effects just via pickup selection...

So, my motivation is to provide a preamp that is basic and allows for a modular approach for the above reasons...

I was also wondering, could a delay (or any other effect) be added into the signal chain either right before or right after the power amp to create some "sustainer effects" that would ultimately change how the thing makes the strings vibrate? As long as the frequency remained constant, wouldn't even a pre distorted or flanged sustainer signal vibrate the strings?

If this would work, this could definitely make for some interesting new sustainer sounds.

Well, this is something I held some hopes for and did some experiments with. It can easily be tried, just add an effect before or after the preamp...

I have to say, the string will only vibrate in it's resonant frequency or a harmonic of it. For instance, running it through a distortion effect creating a square wave signal will in no way make the string vibrate in square waves, it's just not going to happen. On the other hand, running it through a flanger, will make the string sweep through its harmonic frequencies as the sweep of the harmonics coincide with the vibration harmonics of the string...makes a weird kind of bird chirping kind of effect, not entirely useful...

So, I am not really sure that it holds as much promise as you might hope for, but experimentation is easy to do, especially in the testing mode, with simple stomp box effects. It is worth noting that this is a feature of the Sustainiac Model C "acoustic" (vibration) sustainer which offers an effects loop in it's outboard amplification system...

The real effects potential is that with the ability to sustain very long notes and to sustain notes much higher than is typical with the guitar, effects processing can be used in different ways...you could use very long modulation sweeps, rythmic tremolo effects and the like for interesting effects. But the main one and which can not be simulated with effects processing is simply feedback. This is a very organic effect that is very musical, and with the sustainer, you have quite a bit of control over it that you typically don't have...

Anyway, all interesting stuff, I hope I can do a little more on another sustainer guitar and contribute myself with some further experiments in the near future...mean while, keep up the good work... pete