mrjstudios Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 Not precisley, but with a speaker you don't hear the electromagnetic energy...but the vibrations of the air molecules excited by the speaker cone...we are using a similar effect here, but working directly in the electromagnetic realm, so we don't have the option of completley encasing the device to trap EMI (or it wouldn't work...seee above). This 'problem' you metioned is actually a good thing to me!! Think about it -- if we DID encase the ENTIRE driver in steel or computer speaker material, it would be rendered useless, right? Therefore, that shielding would be extremely effective at completely killing all EMI, (be it to drive the strings, or to stray outward towards the pickups.) SO, if we were to open the top side of this rectangular EMI eating box, the side that faces the strings, we would be unleasing all of the EMI right into where it is meant to go. Could this even help to "channel" the EMField to the strings? Just a thought.... Well my Dual Rail has just the one magnet, 1 pole on the top core, 1 on the bottom, my fullsize humbucker has two magnets though, but still both cores on opposite poles, which is quite important, i tested them on the same pole, and they're not as effective. What do you mean by the magned position, and "top / bottom" core? Is the one in the picture really a stacked design? -MRJSTUDIOS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 And by the way, Is this the general consensus on size and shape / configuration? I would use either 32AWG or 34AWG wire (about .2mm, .18mm). -MRJSTUDIOS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 This 'problem' you metioned is actually a good thing to me!! Think about it -- if we DID encase the ENTIRE driver in steel or computer speaker material, it would be rendered useless, right? Therefore, that shielding would be extremely effective at completely killing all EMI, (be it to drive the strings, or to stray outward towards the pickups.) SO, if we were to open the top side of this rectangular EMI eating box, the side that faces the strings, we would be unleasing all of the EMI right into where it is meant to go. Could this even help to "channel" the EMField to the strings? Just a thought.... No, it doesn't work that way (I think ?). If you have a box with just the to open, the sides and bottom of the box becomes a very attractive path for too much of the EMI to return to the opposite pole of the magnetic circuit - if you are using a 'cage' to control the path of the flux back to source, you need to be very careful with the gap between the cage walls and the magnets, and also have some gaps in the cage to help limit magnetic saturation and even out the flux... (not sure of the correct terminology here) Basically, we want the flux at the top to bulge out over the strings to vibrate them, if the cage is too efficient, it reduces the bulge at the top so not enough flux gets to the strings... The problem with this is that getting it right will be a huge job requiring the manufacture of many development 'cages' in order to refine the design and get the balance right between EMI reduction and device efficiency. Even if someone does decide to put in the work to get this right, for anyone else to use the finished design, they would have to use exactly the same formulation of steel (or whatever other material was used) if they try using a different steel with slightly different magnetic properties, then it will just be down to luck if it works at all let alone well. No guarantees that the steel in my old PC power supply case is the same as the steel in your old PC power supply case :-( It may be that a simple cage erring on the side of caution (worse EMI reduction but no worries about losing efficiency) would work, but I'm not sure that the benefits would be enough to warrant the extra work to build it or the space it would take up (not to mention trying to make it look professional) cheers Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 (edited) Yes...that's a good diagram...you see it is exactly the same structure as a rail pickup... Is this the general consensus on size and shape / configuration? I would use either 32AWG or 34AWG wire (about .2mm, .18mm). -MRJSTUDIOS The most professional looking driver, and easiest to make, would seem to be the "blocking" and rewinding of such a pickup rather than making your own...unfortunately parts to build your own are not available... I am not sure about the wire guage, I defer to Avalon on this...parallel drivers will need thiner wires to still be compact than the 0.2mm I used successfully in the single coil 8 ohm design...we really are changing the formula and what works best is up to experimentation... My next version is going to be bobbinless, on 2mm cores, with 0.18 guage wire (SWG 38, not sure what AWG that is), but the 0.18mm wire reduces the mass of the coil, and lowers the amount of turns needed, which together saves alot of space and has already been fully tested on my fullsize humbucker, that is working brilliantly. You can see from the pic its already quite compact, and that one is a bit of a butchers job, the mark 2 will be far neater, smaller, and as effective, the real trick will be getting it to work in my AV-1 guitar mid position, which may as yet prove near impossible, but on a strat type guitar, i think its a good design. Edit:Should also just add that my dual rail is 2x13.5ohm (3mm high)coils wired in parallel, where as my fullsize humbucker driver, is 2x16ohm (2mm high) coils wired in parallel, and that the Fullsize humbucker coils are still smaller then the DR. No, it doesn't work that way (I think ?). It may be that a simple cage erring on the side of caution (worse EMI reduction but no worries about losing efficiency) would work, but I'm not sure that the benefits would be enough to warrant the extra work to build it or the space it would take up (not to mention trying to make it look professional) +1 (good to see you back col ) Yet...both me and Col and other's have tried such strategies. The idea is sound, but like everything in this project it is a question of balancing the forces and effects to optimise the effects we want... Another example is the amount of power that we use to drive the string...some would like to use more power but success can only be acheived by an efficient EMI reducing driver design (that may end up being less efficient at driving the string) or less power than the circuitry can provide to the level of acceptable EMI. So, a less efficient EMI reducing design may drive the strings more effciently and in so doing reduce its own EMI... How will we find this balance...by building these things...fortunately with more people experimenting here, great leaps have been made in areas I intended to explore, without me having to do anything three cheers for the internet and PG for facilitating this pete Edited June 3, 2007 by psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 In addition to my post above, the first stage of my strat conversion is to rewire it so as to allow for a mid driver and compensate for the lack of the mid pickup in terms of tones... To that end I started a thread over at Guitar Nuts - strat wiring for psw This one from JohnH is a good place to start with more options from the two pickup strat than the common three...it does need a super switch however (which I have obtained) and another switch to activate coil splitting. This function may be incorporated in a blend pot or a push pull if wanted... There are of course many other options for rewiring, some of which I may well try over time with this guitar... Another idea that came to me (I'm full of them, aint I ) is the use of a dummy coil to help reduce noise when splitting a Humbucking Pickup...Guitar Nuts - dummy coil thread On a guitar like mine with an HB pickup, you miss the SC sound in the bridge and there is a big difference in tone and power between the bridge HB and the other SC pickups. You can easily split the coils and this can even sound quite effective (I used to split the coils all the time on my Les Paul, especially in the combination) but then you get noise. So, I thought, a thin wide non magnetic coil could be mounted below an HB's mounting plate to help relieve the problem...just a thought. Such a coil is very similar to the type of things we make, showing how the work we contemplate here can be folded back upon itself...or perhaps even branch out into other areas if you have a mind to... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donbenjy Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 p00p! I can't get my F/R working AT ALL! I can get a hissing out of the speakers, and if I turnt he gain up, I get weird feedback, but absolutely no input signal. I thought it may have been the board, but I took stuff off and went back to the proto board, and still nothing happens! :S I'm wondering if the chip may be fried, cos I've tried everythin else. Removing the transistor whilst the thing is squealling has no effect whatsoever, and connecting the input to ground doesn't do anything either! I do have some standard opamps lying around, wondering if I could find an alternative opamp type amplifier as a replacement for proto-ing the driver. Update on the driling idea: it doesn't work I used a rechargable/cordless drill, and it was liek using a plastic toy on the steel! not a scratch. I was contemplating a hammer drill, but I keep geting images of severed fingers etc. So I'll save it for another, braver day, or get access to an angle grinder or just use a damn bobbin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 wow! I like the saw blade core idea! Why's there 4 blades on juan's design though? it's not a quad winding right? Hi Don, yes, Juán's design is a quadruple coil......sorry, this is the first time I have seen the previous post to the one I translated of Juán's, but I am going to try and remedy that now....... David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 (edited) Hi Pete, nice to see you getting back into your projects, sounds as though things are picking up for you - I knew they would, just have faith and be strong...... There seems to be a viral epidemic with flu like symptoms, I didn't treat mine in time and it turned to bronchial pneumonia and has lasted nearly a month and has left me weak as a kitten.... Alright guys, apologies for letting this one slip by me, here is a translation of what Juán was explaining at the end of this post: (I realized that I actually did translate the post itself, so it's just a matter of looking it up, personally I'm not sure where to start looking for it) La bobina funciona perfectamente en la posicion media y cabe en la cavidad de una single coil. Saludos Edited June 4, 2007 by Truth_David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 I realize this is doubtlessly answered repeatedly throughout this thread, but seeing as how there are 191 pages, I hope you'll forgive me. So, here goes: What is the advantage of using multiple cores on a sustainer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Ok, so my driver diagram shown above is accurate? And the 6-7 TOTAL ohm driver is optimum and will work ok with the F/R? Just a few more questions before I start this one..... So as it stands I will build a "Dual rail driver" with: 1 magnet situated like a HB 30AWG wire (yes I know it is thick but I want it to be for other experimentation reasons) 2 x 2mm bar stock steel cores bobin spacing (winding depth) of 6-7mm 2 x 13ohm coils wired in parallel Potted with wood-working PVA glue NO SHIELDING (heh heh heh, good call PSW) Driven by a: Fetzer Ruby (with pins 1-8 soldered on full) Running on 9 volts -MRJ STUDIOS Oh, by the way -- My youtube channel is http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=MRJSTUDIOS . This is where I will post my sustainer test videos, and I'll tell you when they will be up. One of my single coil driver testing is up now if anyone is interested.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Welcome dude... What is the advantage of using multiple cores on a sustainer? Well..as is shown in the video link above, the single coil driver works perfectly well (a lot better than this video shows once fitted to the guitar and proper damping techniques can be used to control the thing!) and for a lot of people this will easily surfice... The dual coil concept uses the Humbucking like principle of pickup designs to try to tame EMI. ElectroMagnetic Interferance in this device is when the signal in magnetic pulses coming out of the driver is sensed by the guitar's magnetic pickups causing unwanted noise, or even uncontrolled oscillation (squeel). The simplest way to control this is with distance (as in testing it over the fretboard)...far enough away from the pickups, and the pickups wont wont sense the driver's signal. We need to get closer than that, hence the neck positioning of the driver and the sole use of the bridge pickup in sustain mode (other pickups must be completely isolated). The dual coil system works by each coil is reverse wound to each other and have reverse magnetic polarities. Each coil puts out roughly equal amounts of EMI, but reverse to each other, and so cancel eachoher out, the reverse magnetic polarity however ensures that both coils are driving the string. One advantage with this design is that you could use more power or more sensitive pickups before distortion enters the pickture, created by EMI. Another is the possibility of fitting the driver even closer to the guitar's pickups before there is a problem... This brings us to the current phase of the project...having successfully made dual coil drivers, we are seeking to have them fitted between the neck and bridge pickups...allowing the use of both or either and greatly simplifying installation (no tricky pickup bypassing for a start)... If you have been reading recently, you will have heard mention of "magnetic shielding" where magnetic material is used to try to contain the electromagnetic radiation of the driver to the area immediately around it... A few, including myself, have dabbled with it, but not had a lot of success...such passive strategies are not as good as the active use of opposing EMI signals I believe...though a clever use might help a little. The dual rail sustem can be driven by exactly the same circuitry as the other models...it may be a little more difficult to make... mrjstudios That's a good video you posted for a couple of reasons...mainly, it perfectly illustrates the testing phase of this device and where you should aim to be before even thinking about installation and such. This performs just like the sustainer in my guitar, but will be a lot better once installed in the guitar...less EMI and you will have more control through damping techniques. I linked it on the Guitar Nuts sustainer thread as someone asked recently about it. 30AWG wire (yes I know it is thick but I want it to be for other experimentation reasons) Hmmm...I am not at all sure about this...I wish you guys would convert to metric...AWG is so confusing, and inches are useless in this size...sorry. Thick wire is going to be bulky, and it is not simply a matter of size...for the single coil driver, I found 0.2mm to be optimal...I tried thicker and thinner, as have others, with less than satisfactory results. The driver needs to respond quicky (that is how we get away with such a simple circuitry, we don't have to overcome phase differences like sustainiac and fernandes do) and the driver will have it's own resonant frequency (its peak operating efficincy frequency) that is greatly effected by the coil, the core, it's dimensions and particularly the thickness of the wire and the number of turns it takes to make the required ohmage. Now...with dual coils in parallel particularly, this has to be reviewed and Avalon and Juan have gone for thinner wire. Col used 0.2mm 4 ohm coils (only 2mm thick) in series with success, modeled after my single coil design... Experimentation is the key, but I suspect that for parallel coil drivers, thinner would be the way to go, not thicker! Otherwise, your general plan is good, and you seem to have the idea down. Don't be disappointed if you need to take a few goes at this, I know I will most likely...I'm planning on two (dispite my experience making driver coils)...a tester and a special super sustainer version once I know the thing will work... Meanwhile... On the way home from work I dropped into the local $2 shop to see if I could find materials for this project...found cheap hacksaw blades for 20c each...so got me three to destroy...and found some craft magnets that look ideal...8 for $2...two per driver for a dual rail design, that's 4 drivers or 50c a go...not bad! With these magnets, the depth of the SC sized driver will be 10mm or less...so well within the range we were looking for and smaller than a typical pickup...neato... When I get some time I'll see what the grinders and files will make of those blades... used a rechargable/cordless drill, and it was liek using a plastic toy on the steel! not a scratch. I was contemplating a hammer drill, but I keep geting images of severed fingers etc. So I'll save it for another, braver day, or get access to an angle grinder biggrin.gif or just use a damn bobbin! No...blades are hardened steel, and although it would seem to be an easy way to access material, it may not be the best for performance and certainly easy working. A rechargable drill is not likely to have enough power and a typical drill bit may even be softer than the blade making it go blunt pretty quick. The risk is that if it gets part way through, it may well spin out and take off a finger...not good, especially for a guitarist... A softer steel is probably more magnetic and easier to work. Those PC card slot covers may make a good material to play with for instance. You could also layer thin steel...I may have to do this with the blades if one seems too thin... Anyway...buck in the hunt it would seem, and having some success... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 A softer steel is probably more magnetic and easier to work. Those PC card slot covers may make a good material to play with for instance. You could also layer thin steel...I may have to do this with the blades if one seems too thin... BINGO!!!!!!!! Thats the good stuff. Any computer case material -- especially the older (non-aluminum) beefier models have great steel in them. Heck, the stuff even magnetizes itself when you drill into it. I also measured and the standard thickness of the case metal is almost exactly 1mm thick on every part! Ok, sorry about my American measurement system..... But good news, the micrometer has a mm setting!! So, my milspec 30AWG converts to .25mm (actually measured) so that stuff is quite thick by the new standards. My only question is... how much performance will be lost, or is it even possible if I use a bobbin that has 7mm spacing, giving the coil a depth/winding height of 7mm? If it is not completely out of the question (as shown in my diagram) I think I will have a go at this whole dual core driver thing! And, you will be able to closely see my work and hopefully save time for yourselves by following my Youtube driver experiments. -MRJSTUDIOS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 By the way PSW, do you think my driver as seen on youtube will drive ALL the strings once it is installed? What kind of results did you get with yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avalon Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Ok, sorry about my American measurement system..... But good news, the micrometer has a mm setting!! So, my milspec 30AWG converts to .25mm (actually measured) so that stuff is quite thick by the new standards. Well there are two problems with this guage of wire mate, obviously its thicker, so it takes up a good bit more space to start with, but thicker wire has less Ohms per foot, here's a little example. 100 feet of 0.20 guage (AWG32/SWG36) is 17 ohms 100 feet of 0.16 guage (AWG34/SWG38 which is used on my full size humbucker) is 27 ohms 100 feet of 0.25 guage (AWG30/SWG33) is 11 ohms So you would need half as much wire again over the 32 guage, and about 2.5 times more then the SWG38, then add the fact that its thicker too. While we are on the subject of guages, my Fullsize Humbucker is made from 0.16mm wire (SWG38), not 0.18mm as i've stated previous, this is what happens when you try thinking with the flu lol, and one of the reasons i've not been working on it much (im mistake prone with the flu). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Ok...so I'm more of a "conceptual thinker"...a little loose on the details. That's why I have trouble designing circuits, specific values and such...but I do understand the concepts (self taught) and how I may wish them to be put to use...in my own way... So...I often think in analogies...for instance, on wire guages... Well there are two problems with this guage of wire mate, obviously its thicker, so it takes up a good bit more space to start with, but thicker wire has less Ohms per foot, here's a little example. 100 feet of 0.20 guage (AWG32/SWG36) is 17 ohms 100 feet of 0.16 guage (AWG34/SWG38 which is used on my full size humbucker) is 27 ohms 100 feet of 0.25 guage (AWG30/SWG33) is 11 ohms So you would need half as much wire again over the 32 guage, and about 2.5 times more then the SWG38, then add the fact that its thicker too. An excellent, concise assesment of the general situation here... I think in strange conveluted ways, so bear with me...I may get lost... Think of a wire as a hose pipe and the power as the voltage of that power as the amount of water, and the current as the pressure of the water. Mains wires around the house are thick so that they can 'carry' large amounts of voltage and current, if you like. A thick wire will be able to carry a lot of power with little resistance (measured in ohms), similarly the water mains. Running through a garden hose creates more pressure and less quantity, a thinner hose even more pressure but even less quantity. So, a thinner pipe is going to require a lot more pressure to shift the same amount of water through it...the resistance will cause heat in a wire that is wasted energy and possibly self destructive (as in a fuse wire to prevent overloading) So, as Avalon has illustrated above, a thicker wire provides less resistance and so will need to be longer to reach the same resistance of the thinner wire...it could carry more power, but that is not the aim here. It is the pressure if you like that provides the force (in electromagnetic energy) that moves the strings. You could put vast amounts of energy in there, to achieve the same results...at least at this simple level...but there is more... The pressure of vast amounts of water pushed through a hose pipe cause the pipe to expand and bulge...if you were to coil the hose up (causing more resistance) these slight bulges will add up as the hose of each outer wind of pipe provides more pressure on the inner pipes. With the thin driver idea, I have maximised the number of turns overlapping each other...consider... Now...the signal, or power we are forcing through our wires is alternating. We are pushing wire through the pipe one way, then sucking it out the other at high speed. The higher the note, the higher the frequency, the faster the power/water needs to change direction and flow the other way...obviously there is a lag as the water slows, stops and returns the other way due to momentum. If the lag in our device is two slow it falls out of sync too much with the physical vibration of the string and may still be trying to push, when it really should be pulling...it falls out of phase. In the sustainer patents, there are detaild all kinds of circuit trickery to compensate for these phase differences...I have tried to address the problem by devising a device that is efficient enough for phase problems not to be too significant... OK...so it is a balancing act...we need to provide enough power through the device and optimise the number of turns and how much they overlap (similar issues surround the magnetic properties and mass of the core material BTW)...too thick a wire and you will need a lot and more power to generate the same electromagnetic effect...you will also have trouble turning the flow around causing phase problems...these will be more, the faster you try to turn the flow around, hence the higher strings are harder to drive as they are moving much faster (the fact that they have more tension and a lot less magnetic material and mass only makes it worse). Avalon points out that to get a similar result in resistance with a thicker wire that you will need more of it....I am also suggesting you will need more power to achieve the same electromagnetic result and it will be more difficult to turn this around and so the driver will be slower to respond to the alternating current of the signal... It may not seem much...but the difference between 0.2mm and 0.25mm is a quarter more...that is significant in this application. A parallel driver means many more turns...there just simply needs to be more experimentation... Similar considerations effect the core material and bulk of it...how magnetic it is, how much it wants to hold on to it's magnetic polarity...but I will be late for work (it's 5am and I only just got up...time to go)... In short, in a parallel driver with many more turns, a thinner wire is more likely to get the results we need...less of it for the required resistance, but not so thin as to provide too much resistance. A thin coil (7mm is thick by our standards, avalon and col's drivers are only 2mm thick, a third thinner even than mine) meaning less overlap and more coil further from the strings...so much to consider... So much to consider, yet the final solution...a thin coil with many overlapping wires and a wire size that provides a balance between powerhandling and length yet still works at the speeds we are looking at...seems so simple. The formula is the tricky part...mess with that, and you will have to redesign completely (our drivers are very different from other sustainer drivers for instance) and may need to compensate electronically for it's short comings... It was the late great Lovecraft here that encouraged me to develop driver concepts further than to fret over my shortcomings in the electronics department...very wise advice... So...happy to discuss further, but must run now... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Hmmm, I thought I might need thinner wire. I think I'll get some wire in the .18mm - .2mm range, since that seems to be standard around here. By the way PSW, I use the hose analogy a lot when thinking of electromagnetic concepts. PROGRESS REPORT: I got the cores cut out of some 1.5mm computer case steel that seemed unusually magnetic.... and got another $1.50 garbage can for some good looking scrap plastic "bobbin/case material." Now I just need some of that thinner wire..... -MRJ STUDIOS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Ok, just ordered 1000+ feet of 32AWG .2mm Magnet wire!!!!!! So this dual rail driver will be done right!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 1000 feet....I don't think you'll need anything like that much, it must be $$$ copper is expensive... and 0.2mm is what I used for the single coil driver...it may turn out for the parallel driver, thinner is better,,,or esential to get a compact enough coil. You could get to 4 ohm coils in series which worked well for col, but then perhaps not in the mid position... By the way PSW, do you think my driver as seen on youtube will drive ALL the strings once it is installed? What kind of results did you get with yours? Well that seems very similar to the response I was getting...but it is hard to tell about the high strings...the low strings need to be dampened to get the high strings to sustain (difficult to do in test mode I know)...people who built it with thicker wire found that it was too slow or not powerful enough to get the high strings to respond. Light strings (below 10's) also have difficultise with the high strings... Things do improve with installation and it may well be worth installing the driver to see....the driver itself looks well made...remember, for all the current talk of dual coil driver designs, the single coil driver is tried and proven for the neck positon and is still what I and others who have followed this thread use. pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 The wire is new "old-stock," and was only US$6 (about the cost of a meal and shake at McDonalds for those of you who don't use US$$$). Plus, with a dual coil driver using 104 feet per each core, or 208 feet per unit, it would be good to have enough to make 5 of the things. I think the .2mm wire will work out fine, since even the .25mm wire would have worked size wise on a full HB sized dual-rail driver. Does anyone know the dimensions of a 13.5ohm or 8ohm coil made with .2mm wire? Thanks, -MRJSTUDIOS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Does anyone know the dimensions of a 13.5ohm or 8ohm coil made with .2mm wire? use this don't forget that winding by hand will mean your coil takes up a little more room than the result you get here, but it is a useful guide, and great for sanity checking your creative flights of fancy FWIW, the wire I used for my dual core driver is 0.23 (I think thats excluding insulation, but could be wrong) The cores are 2mm and the coils are about 3.5mm thick giving the wire bundles a roughly square cross section (I believe that this it optimal - at least for a rectangular cross section). Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Score COL!! Awesome site! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 The wire is new "old-stock," and was only US$6 (about the cost of a meal and shake at McDonalds for those of you who don't use US$$$). Plus, with a dual coil driver using 104 feet per each core, or 208 feet per unit, it would be good to have enough to make 5 of the things. I think the .2mm wire will work out fine, since even the .25mm wire would have worked size wise on a full HB sized dual-rail driver. Does anyone know the dimensions of a 13.5ohm or 8ohm coil made with .2mm wire? Thanks, -MRJSTUDIOS Ooops...I was thinking in metres!!!...I grew up with feet and inches down here and then they converted at a formidable age...now I think in inches and feet for large things and mm and cm for small things...grrr...a small real like I buy is about 25 metres or 100 foot...never mind me, carry on... Hmm...I better check I have enough wire to build mine.... Actually...no one has made a parallel driver with 0.2mm, yet. While we are on the subject of guages, my Fullsize Humbucker is made from 0.16mm wire (SWG38), not 0.18mm as i've stated previous... Avalon used 0.16 on his and made it the size of a SC without cover...watch the depth of the coil... Page 181...Its based on Juán's design from page 178, two 13.5 ohm coils, side-by-side, wired in parallel (first DPDT switch works serial/parallel). I must say the first signs are very good, in parallel mode, it runs in the neck position with the Ruby/Fet on full power siliently, thats a first for me (not sure about you guys), but also works well at the same gain level as all my previous drivers (easily equal to them at similiar levels), and as importantly, it works in the middle position at the same level of gain without interfearence. I must say it was abit annoying to build, i built the coils around a 2mm steel core (the thinnest i can find atm), and the coils just about take the 4mm (edit:width) i allowed for them (2mm either side of the core), but its a tight fit. Page 182...8ohms would have been far less hassle lol, it has 2, 13.5ohm coils, one on the north blade one on the south, 3mm high, 64mm wide (wrapped around a 56mm wide core) and 8mm deep per coil. It doesn't quite fit into one of my single coil covers, but is the same size as it (so just about fits our single coil size requirement). The down side of it is the construction, making the bobbin so small was quite tricky (and would probably benifit from being made from something alittle stronger then plastic if we reach a final design at some stage), but winding it was very tricky. I made each side as a seperate coil/blade ready to be joined to the other half, as i couldn't think of anyway to wind them joined, and winding around something so small and fiddlely as you can imagine is tricky. I think if i can track down some 1mm steel for the cores, this will take just enough width off it to fit it within my single coil casing, i might also try some 0.18mm (edit: 0.16mm???) wire, it was mentioned a couple of pages ago that this wire seems to work well on the thinner strings, and would also decrease the coil size ever so slightly (every little helps smile.gif ). If the thinner wire does help with the thinner strings, i might try a DR-HB with a 0.18mm wound north coil, and a 0.20mm wound south coil (both to the same ohms) to see if that has any merit. Still not sure what depth of coil Avalon made, but if it is to Juan's design it is possibly 3mm...can you confirm A? Here are some details of Juan's construction again... It's good that you mentioned all this again because I am working on my mid driver today...and certainly the planning stage is underway...I tend to plan a lot, but am prepared to improvise... I got some new mags and hack saw blades as previously mentioned and these magnets look ideal for the application. I hope I can cut and grind these blades without too much trouble as they seem to fit the bill and the price is right. These things are brittle (if you've ever snapped a blade) and you can appreciate that cutting a blade with a similar blade of the same material is going to be a battle of material wills. If anyone else tries this, make sure you have the means to hold the blades securely...I have a big heavy anvil vice for this kind of thing, and may need an angle grinder to cut it successfully...but I fret about these things too much, it will probably be easy enough... The mags are about 4mm wide and three will stretch to the width of the single coil cover...as ceramic magnets like this can't really be cut...I will be extending my blades a little beyond the strings...should look cool anyway for my eventual design idea...and the extra little length in the coil means it could be thinner for the same resistance. I will be looking into slightly thinner wire (if I have it) and a depth of 3, maybe 4mm and a coil width of 2mm either side of the blade is vital if they are to fit together...see above... I am going to attempt my own idea for supporting, winding and compressing the coil...similar to the ideas I thrashed out with Tim and resulted in his fabulous jig (remember that animation!) What I am proposing is cutting a groove in some plastic or wood with the blade so that it press fits the driver blade above and below. I will make some paper bobbins I suspect that will fit in the space left to wind on...this will help the glue keep the coil in place when set and protect it, but take up little space...I have worked out a way to cut the paper so as it protects the coil from the blade also (when I have tested this stuff and it is successful I will post all the details)... So I hold the two temporary formers and wind the blade between the paper with glue...I will then press these formers gently in the vice and also press the sides to condense the coil as it dries...the paper, which will obsorbe the glue and driy first, should help to keep the coil condensed and then the formers can be removed leaving a neat coil around the blade, protected and held together with paper....well that's the plan... The final stage is to fit the magnets and join the two blades and mount this by epoxying to a base plate (possibly aluminium) and somewhere to attach the drivers wires (possibly a small piece of veroboard)... Anyone see any problems or have suggestions, feel free... The result will be something smaller in depth than a SC...it may just fit within a cover (length is the likely problem, detirmined by these magnets)... If this works out ok, it is likely that I will modify this, or make another with "special features" that will look a lot more "professional"...or at least, unusual... A lot is detirmined by the depth of the coil and how neat I can make it...wider than 2mm and the thing wont fit together...it may take a little trial and error... My single coil on a 3mm core and 3mm deep was a lot wider with 0.2mm wire...so If I too use this, I will have to get it smaller and perhaps 4mm deep...I really don't want to go any deeper, but I have made SC drivers this deep that seemed to work fine, so that is an option...I have in mind though that this is twice the depth of col and Avalon's recent creations... Anyway...it's kind of exciting to be trying this out, but I won't have that much time to do it this week...so don't expect too much too soon... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IbanezFreak666 Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 what wire should i use for a single coil sustainer? iv never done anything like this so i dont know what the different codes mean. and does anyone know an online store where i can order it from? as for the core does this have to have a certain shape/thickness. im thinking of sawing a bar from the inside of a door handle mechanism in half for the core...will this work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Thanks col...good timing... 14 ohms, 0.2mm wire, 4mm depth So...using this 0.2mm with a 0.1mm bobbin and a 4mm depth may fit...but at over two hundred turns...you are sure to get some bulging...at least from overlaping wires caused by hand winding...hmmm Still...we don't know exactly how acurate this calculator is for this kind of application...it may be a little tricky... things to consider... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 (edited) Actually...no one has made a parallel driver with 0.2mm, yet. Then mine and yours will be the first ones.... uh boy, pressure -- better get it right then. Uh, real quick PSW -- your design is 2 x 14ohm coils wired in parallel with .2mm wire correct? If it is, I was thinking this size consideration would be safer and is what I'm using 14ohm Coil with .2mm wire *remember that .2mm wire is really more like .202mm - .210mm* I just want to be on the same page as you for comparison / testing purposes later. -MRJSTUDIOS Edited June 5, 2007 by mrjstudios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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