psw Posted June 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 There have been a few approaches to tuning mechanics over the years.... Steinberger trans trem... hipshot d-tuner.... and I'm sure Ive seen an article about a mechanical system with digital memory control, but nothing came of it. Actually...Jimmy Page uses one of these digital controlled things....saw him in concert with Robert Plant and worked really well...very complicated and expensive and only abble to be fitted into a very hollowed out Les Paul...the guitar, not the man But the most amazing use I can think of is by a guitarist called Adrian Legg Yes...I have been amazed...although that music is his, the application to any music is tremendous. The banjo pegs are a little unwieldy...my idea was a system of push buttons to operate the levers...I even wanted to retain the tremolo for standard tuning so was working on a locking system and...a surface mount leaf sprining system...again, way to adventurous to be really practical...the fabrication was quite difficult and was eventually abandoned...I still have a perfectly good strat copy that needs to be refitted back into playing condition after testing these bridge designs out...some things are not really suitable for DIY...nor so practical in application if you did it... On LEDs: My feeling as I've stated in the past is that if you have to look at your guitar, than there's something wrong with the layout, or you need to memorize it better ... as far as seeing if the sustainer is on, if you use a toggle switch, its pretty damn easy to see if its on or off, but you should be able to feel that anyway ! Yes...I totally see your point and it has merit. As I say, I am divided...I am prone to excess at times and can regret it later. As people can see, a debate on the aesthetics of LED's or not are really just a distraction from the device itself and what it is intended to do...so perhaps we could leave it there for now... I think what does have far more merit is the idea of momentary control. To do this effectively and easily, the mid-driver idea (or a single pickup guitar) is probably essential. If this thing works as a mid-driver...or when I or one of you build it...it should only be a matter of connecting power (a SPST switch, which could be tiny) to the circuit...perhaps col's guitar could already be a candidate . As I say...the next step is to modify the guitar and see if this thing will in fact work in the mid position...build the circuitry, I may even try col's preamp at some point...and sit back and enjoy playing the thing again. I am fairly pleased with the construction techniques developed, but am still unsure of the "formula" for this particular type of device. There will come a time when I will have to put experiments and such on hold...but for now there are windows of opportunity to be exploited while my life is in something of a holding pattern... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 There have been a few approaches to tuning mechanics over the years.... Steinberger trans trem... hipshot d-tuner.... and I'm sure Ive seen an article about a mechanical system with digital memory control, but nothing came of it. I feel that so far no-one has really come up with a tremolo system that works satisfactorily, at least for me. That is probably also why guitarists like Allan Holdsworth eventually abandoned them, even though at one point they were so much an identifiable part of his sound and style. The amazing thing is that he still somehow manages to get the same notes, just with his fingers. Speaking of Jimmy Page, who I must say I find utterly repulsive as a human being (if you are not a Satanist yourself, and know anything about his magickal dabblings I think you might agree) - I remember in the late '70s when he was at his playing peak - he used to produce very effective string bending just behind the nut. I would add the Parker Fly tremolo system to your list, but even despite such advancements I was still not happy with the feel of the tremolo itself. I think is is the fact that the springs introduce an un-natural tension that somehow counteracts the springyness of the strings themselves - that plus the fact that the more the strings are bent, the more the tremolo unit raises, thus rendering the balance between the strings unstable. But for me it is a very expressive tool nonetheless. There is a new tremolo on the market now also, which requires a little routing and is still not stable according to reports I have read, but it seems to be one of the very few designs that addresses the issues I just outlined. Here is a link for anyone interested: http://www.tremking.com/ I may have mentioned it before, so forgive me if I did, but some years ago I assisted in a project called 'The Beast', an 18 stringed electric guitar built out of solid oak in the shape of an Ankh, and with eliptically wound p/ups (s/c), and an amazing tremolo system based upon a rubber ball and a screw-in tensioner system with a large knurled knob to the rear of the instrument. Believe it or not, it worked and stayed in tune. But most importantly, the tension, being fully adjustable, was just right and extremely precise. If he had got around to fitting a similar system to a Strat, he would have had it made! (And I would have been satisfied). The guitar (if you can call it that) also had an incredible action, and the sound was truly amazing. We used and H&H system for the sound, so the output was crystal clean, the guy wasn't into distortion. If I remember correctly there were 6 courses of 3 strings, sort of like a 12 string with an additional string for each of the courses of 2 strings. If memory serves me, the first 3 sets of courses were all strung with 010 guage strings. Makes me wonder how some of the modern two-handed approaches to playing of guys like Phil Keaggy, Andy McKee and Justin King might have translated to the instrument. I am developing personally more and more towards such forms of expression, which is also why I would like to see more development of the sustainer project in the area of acoustic instruments. Before you laugh, try out an e-bow on a steel string - you might be surprised.....true, the response is a little slow, but the tone cannot be compared to its electric counterpart. The guy who invented it also had me collaborate on an amazing speaker, which was parabolic, like a tube taurus, with the top considerably wider than the bottom ellipse. I still remember how we built the mould from strings over fibre glass, and it took literally days to complete. But the amazing thing about it was the fact that the speaker had no housing, it was just a baffle, yet it amplified the amplifier's signal greatly. I don't know what became of the guy, and some 25 odd years have passed since then, so I no longer even remember his name, only that this was in London. But I do clearly remember the guitar, and can still almost hear it in my mind..... On LEDs: My feeling as I've stated in the past is that if you have to look at your guitar, than there's something wrong with the layout, or you need to memorize it better ... as far as seeing if the sustainer is on, if you use a toggle switch, its pretty damn easy to see if its on or off, but you should be able to feel that anyway ! Yes, but feeling a switch is not going to tell you if your battery is low, which is one very good way to employ an LED circuit, and Pete's idea of having a momentary contact switch for instant sustain on any given note would probably also need some way of visually indicating when the circuit was active...... I really like the LED idea on the Hex p/ups, presumably they would light up when a particular string was being affected by the sustainer circuit for that particular string? God bless, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 There have been a few approaches to tuning mechanics over the years.... Steinberger trans trem... hipshot d-tuner.... and I'm sure Ive seen an article about a mechanical system with digital memory control, but nothing came of it. I feel that so far no-one has really come up with a tremolo system that works satisfactorily, at least for me. That is probably also why guitarists like Allan Holdsworth eventually abandoned them, even though at one point they were so much an identifiable part of his sound and style. The amazing thing is that he still somehow manages to get the same notes, just with his fingers. If Alan Holdsworth can do without a trem what Jimi Hendrix, EVH etc. do with one, then I will eat a whole stack of hats ! At far as not using one, many Guitarists have guitars with and without for tone reasons - EVH is a good example - the majority of the guitar work on some of the van halen albums was recorded with hardtail guitars - trems were only used for the fancy stuff, and its interesting that he prefers the tone of fender strat type trem over floyd rose, although the floyd wins for purely practical reasons for live work. Basically, its well known that trems kill tone - no surprise really. Speaking of Jimmy Page, who I must say I find utterly repulsive as a human being (if you are not a Satanist yourself, and know anything about his magickal dabblings I think you might agree) - I remember in the late '70s when he was at his playing peak - he used to produce very effective string bending just behind the nut. please don't bring religion here ! (FWIW, if you want to do a top 20 of religions based on the pain and suffering and plain 'evil' they have caused, the various strands of Christianity rank way higher than 'Satanism' (whatever that is)) Yes, but feeling a switch is not going to tell you if your battery is low, which is one very good way to employ an LED circuit, and Pete's idea of having a momentary contact switch for instant sustain on any given note would probably also need some way of visually indicating when the circuit was active...... When I say you can feel when its on, I don't mean feel the switch, I mean feel the guitar/strings... If you have the sustainer switched on and the battery is not dead, you will feel it Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 THE .2mm WIRE ARRIVED YESTERDAY!!!!! So here is my early morning progress... They are wound on temporary bobbins (yes, I use a much different winding/building style than the other guys) and the system came out to be about 7.2ohms - 7.8ohms, but I haven't physically tested it in parallel yet, just calculated. As for the pickup winding website, add 50 turns to whatever they say! You can always take off a bit later, and they seem to estimate low.... Also, this .2mm wire's resistance over a given length is much more varied than .25mm. Oh yes, if I was to add a standard (not micro cell phone) LED as a power on indicator, say directly hooked up to a 9v, what would be the circut involved? -MRJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 Tim...so well said... Product design is a practice for the chronicly dissatisfied..(just like custom guitarbuilding or any 'creative' act for that matter), which is as much a blessing as it is a curse. These things keep you up at night and chances are that if you are perfectionistic/obsessive/undecisive in this area; then you are also in other areas of life, which translates into how you deal with persons and situations. To some you're genius, to others just...weird. in both cases you're misunderstood. So in essence it's a very frustrating way of life (more a 'way of mind'); I heard only about 1/3 of working, finished prototypes actually make it into production, with no guarantee for succes (or return on investment). But you need those setbacks and frustration to get to the good stuff. Nothing is for free, except on the internet I think I may be chronically disatisfied....some useful food for thought as I try to change my approach to things in general...thank you. The hardest things in product development are making (the right) choices and letting go of ideas/designs...I feel I've become pretty good at the 2nd one. It is also one of the most important things...the Hex ideas were a good case in point...as clever and appealing that they may be...and the more time I put into them...the harder it was to put them aside and seek easier or different approaches that could have been more rewarding sooner...as I said earlier, sometimes you need to have a bit of a reality slap to snap you out of it... Funny also how much the driver starts to resemble the renders from page 30 and on. I think the aliminum strip could be replaced by matte acrylic sheet and backlit? There was some really good ideas floated back there and yes, I think the backlit strip would be a posibility...but then... Boy...no more LED discussion...eek...let's stick relatively on topic (says me... )...in everyway... Looking good MRJ...that should keep us on track...and your pics aren't as fuzzy as mine...mine look like some kind of UFO sighting... They are wound on temporary bobbins (yes, I use a much different winding/building style than the other guys) and the system came out to be about 7.2ohms - 7.8ohms, but I haven't physically tested it in parallel yet, just calculated. Umm...that's 7ish ohms total, or about 14ohms per coil...just in case people are trying to follow this...That should be fine, mine worked out to total just over 8 ohms but I am regretting the extra effort to go further. My strat's SC driver is about that and worked perfectly well in comparison to an identical 8 ohm driver... Also...now that I am seeing them being wound like that and with this post I now see what you are aiming to do with those bobbins and all that heat gun glue...I think you are on a winner there. The bobbins should come off easily and that glue is very tenacious stuff, but will cut off, freeing the core and bobbin. Be aware however that although the PVA will not stick to your plastic bobbins (which is good) and they should come off...it will still be pretty 'wet' inside as the outside dries first and without air, the PVA will not be holding the coil together too well. Tim may have some thoughts on that as he did quite a bit of work on bobbinless coils, however in his case he had a removable core as well that made things trickier than this. When you release the coils, it may be of benefit to have some epoxy or something so as to seal it against expansion. Those calculators are a bit of a guide, nothing more. We are not going to be winding perfect coils with this guage of wire, all that glue and in these dimensions by hand. I got close to some of those dimensions only after squeezing the coil quite hard and removing a lot of glue in the process that would otherwise have been air. This process though worked with my notched blade design that prevented the ends of the coil from expanding and/or sagging at those points. It was also a slightly risky thing to do and all the time I thought I was going to break them...remember they were wound around a saw blade!!! Oh yes, if I was to add a standard (not micro cell phone) LED as a power on indicator, say directly hooked up to a 9v, what would be the circut involved? ok...maybe a little more discussion on LED's...on mine I used two (one on each end, betraying that they are cosmetic as the lower one wouldn't be seen... ) wired in parallel. By doing it this way, if one should fail, the other will still work (unlike christmas tree lights in series...ie strung along the wire) Basically I used a 560 ohm resistor to bring the voltage down (not 560K ohm)...without it the LED's will burn out. You can test them with a 1.5V pencil battery but 9v will fry them. You can put the resistor on either side of the LED to achieve this but they will only light when the power is flowing one way (reversing it wont hurt it BTW, they just don't light). I built the resistor into the little connector plate, but previously I had the resistor coming from the circuit to power the LED. So a wire from one end of the LED and a resistor on the other, then to the battery...the same for the other (connect to the same resistor...you only need one). You can use a standard LED...a 3mm may fit in your design just as easily and be a lot easier to work with...the same principle applies. 560 ohm should withstand up to 12 volts according to my book and still give out plenty of light...330 ohms will be brighter...so anything between (I was being careful as if I burn them out slowly, I won't be able to replace them later) will work. SMD lights are harder to find, I just had a few. I used winding wire (the 0.2mm coil wire would do even) as there is very little space. to solder them (these things are tiny...only 1mm deep and less than 3mm square) I make a loop in the wire and solder both connection point to that, then cut the loop off later to make the two leads...you will have to hold the things still while you do this as they tend to run away, fall on the floor and are difficult to see when they do...also, any movement while the solder cools on such a small solder joint will result in a dry and faulty join. Note also that I eventually invested in a digital heat controlled soldering station with a fine tip to do this work...it can be a little frustrating even with a good iron like this... Col is absolutely right...no matter how I might justify the LED's, on the sustainer they are kind of superfluous...a toogle will indicate it, but it is hard to leave on...the guitar plays itself, you will hear it!!! They do look cool though IMO, in their own way...I did make a circuit to indicate a low battery at one point...but at about the size of the preamp (small as that may be) it really can't be justified in a compact application like this. So...fortunatly MRJ has saved us from ourselves with some developments in practical driver building in the nick of time... cheers... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 I feel that so far no-one has really come up with a tremolo system that works satisfactorily, at least for me. That is probably also why guitarists like Allan Holdsworth eventually abandoned them, even though at one point they were so much an identifiable part of his sound and style. The amazing thing is that he still somehow manages to get the same notes, just with his fingers. If Alan Holdsworth can do without a trem what Jimi Hendrix, EVH etc. do with one, then I will eat a whole stack of hats ! Erm excuse me, but where did I imply that he was? Holdsworth may have influenced EVH, but he is in a league of his own, and apart from Jeff Beck, at that time there were very very few guitarists capable of using a tremolo with subtelety. Holdsworth was never one for dive-bombing antics, he is still in my opinion light years beyond where most guitarists are both harmonically and melodically. Furthermore, I would not degrade the conversation by comparing guitarists of so vastly diferent calibre, one simply cannot hope to compare Hendrix with Holdsworth, any more than one could compare Johnny Mac with EVH. They are all trying to express something different, each in his own way, and each according to the depth with which he has studied his instrument harmonically and melodically. Aside from that, if you genuinely feel that it is fair to compare someone with so much technical mastery of the fingerboard, who play 4 note per string scales without even thinking about it, and who is capable of employing teriary and quintal harmony with ease, with anyone else, then that is your affair. And you have entirely missed the point. What I actually said is that Holdsworth is still capable of reproducing the notes he did when using a tremolo - perhaps it might have been more appropriate to speak in terms of nuances, rather than notes. But if you listen to his latest renditions of pieces that were conceived on a tremolo equipped instrument, then you might be in a position to understand for yourself what I am trying to say. What I feel however is that in your reply to this thread you are being deliberately provocative, and what you want is an argument. Speaking of Jimmy Page, who I must say I find utterly repulsive as a human being (if you are not a Satanist yourself, and know anything about his magickal dabblings I think you might agree) - I remember in the late '70s when he was at his playing peak - he used to produce very effective string bending just behind the nut. please don't bring religion here ! (FWIW, if you want to do a top 20 of religions based on the pain and suffering and plain 'evil' they have caused, the various strands of Christianity rank way higher than 'Satanism' (whatever that is)) That is an exceeedingly weak argument. For your information, if you are referring to Christianity as a religion then you do not understand it. The perpetrators of the atrocities on behalf of Christianity were employed for the most part by the papacy which is and was corrupt, and has nothing to do with actual Christian doctrine as taught by Yeshúa, the Christ. How you can dare to compare that with the Satanic Church which has always practiced ritual human sacrifice since the dawn of time, regardless of its name, including ritual sexual sacrifice and abuse of little children, only shows your complete ignorance in that regard. Satanism is the worhip of Lucifer or Satan with the object of bringing down Christianity and replacing Christ with the antichrist and enslaving and ultimately bringing about the destruction of the entire human race via the New World Order and the One World Religion. Furthermore I have inside knowledge of exactly what went on in the re-enactment of Crowleyan ritual magic during the making of 'Houses of The Holy' which resulted ultimately in John Bonham's early demise and also that of Robert Plant's son.....not to mention Jimmy Page's seven year Satanic pact. Yes, but feeling a switch is not going to tell you if your battery is low, which is one very good way to employ an LED circuit, and Pete's idea of having a momentary contact switch for instant sustain on any given note would probably also need some way of visually indicating when the circuit was active...... When I say you can feel when its on, I don't mean feel the switch, I mean feel the guitar/strings... If you have the sustainer switched on and the battery is not dead, you will feel it Have you ever had a battery go dead on you on stage in the middle of a song? Wouldn't it be useful to have an early indicator of the low power of your battery so you could avoid that, without wastefully having to swap out a perfectly usable battery 'just in case' the night before, as I have to presently? Are you so afraid of admitting that for once you might not be right? And if I choose to say 'God bless', and you interpret that as 'bringing religion into the forum', then does that mean that I should listen to you, or to God? Or do the rules of this forum outlaw one acting upon one's faith? Perhaps Pete, you might like to chime in on this one..... Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 Apologies in advance for the off topic and somewhat aggressive nature of this post - I hope any continuation of this can be taken to the off topic section where it can be left to die a natural death ...Erm excuse me, but where did I imply that he was? I'm sorry, I can see how my answer may be misunderstood... My thinking is that if Holdsworth can do without a trem what he could do with one, then he didn't need one in the first place - however if you consider music by the likes of hendrix and van halen, you would not be able to reproduce it without some sort of trem ! So its not because Holdsworth is great, its because his music just don't need no trem ! but he is in a league of his own, and apart from Jeff Beck, at that time there were very very few guitarists capable of using a tremolo with subtelety. I disagree. ...Furthermore, I would not degrade the conversation by comparing guitarists of so vastly diferent calibre, one simply cannot hope to compare Hendrix with Holdsworth, any more than one could compare Johnny Mac with EVH. They are not of vastly different calibre - they are of similar calibre - I (and many others) would say if any was of higher calibre it would be Hendrix (he did play some awful stuff as well though).... they do/did play within very different genres though: Hendrix = widdly wanky psychadelic rock blues Van halen = widdly wanky american poodle rock Holdsworth = widdly wanky oh so serious and dull jazz/fusion They are/were all at the top of their genre, and capable of amazing feats of guitar musicianship and equally horrific fretboard wankery (to me, Holdsworth is kinda like the Yngwie Malmsteen of Jazz Fusion guitar, but thats just me I guess) ...and each according to the depth with which he has studied his instrument harmonically and melodically. Aside from that, if you genuinely feel that it is fair to compare someone with so much technical mastery of the fingerboard, who play 4 note per string scales without even thinking about it, and who is capable of employing teriary and quintal harmony with ease, with anyone else, then that is your affair. It sure is my affair, and compare I will - because you can spin as big a web of fantastical jazz theory jargon as you like - it doesn't make the music any better or worse, when you play you choose the notes and play them - when you listen, you hear the notes and they move you, or not as the case may be.... so calling it teriary and quintal harmony doesn't really matter much ! Musically, I have very catholic tastes (note the small 'c'). I regularly listen to and enjoy music from genres such as krautrock, avant garde, rap, rock, pop, country blues, ragtime, gypsy jazz, heavy metal, Be Bop, rock'n'roll, (a little) classical, punk, Drum'n'Bass, trance and probably many others I've missed. I don't have many preconceptions, I like what I like, and can also appreciate stuff I don't really like to listen to - Michael Hedges, Adrian Legg, most (not all) Country, the housemartins, radiohead, Sinatra, .... Anyway getting to the point, what attracts me (or not) to music is about something deeper than style, technique or genre: is there life in the music ? is there honesty ? for me, Woody Guthrie has more in common with Angus Young than with Bob Dylan... honest, believable, played with commitment and fully engaging... At this level, all Music is comparable and it is fair to make the comparison and the judgment. (of course, it's also fair to disagree with other folks opinions)... So basically I do get the point of what Holdsworth is trying to do, but for me it doesn't work and never has (I bought my first Holdsworth CD in the early 90s). So trying to discuss guitar playing and guitar music and using him as an ultimate reference just makes it difficult for us to communicate ! ...And you have entirely missed the point. What I actually said is that Holdsworth is still capable of reproducing the notes he did when using a tremolo - perhaps it might have been more appropriate to speak in terms of nuances, rather than notes. But if you listen to his latest renditions of pieces that were conceived on a tremolo equipped instrument, then you might be in a position to understand for yourself what I am trying to say. Thats a fair cop - I do know that Holdsworth is obsessional about many aspects of his technique - stuff like playing hammered/pulled legato stuff and having it sound like its picked etc. personally I think its all a bit ****, I like the different sounds a guitar makes when you play it in different ways.... methinks maybe he should never have played guitar - I know he originally wanted to play sax anyway... What I feel however is that in your reply to this thread you are being deliberately provocative, and what you want is an argument. I wasn't then, but I suppose I am now - although I don't want an argument with someone who holds belief above reason *see post script below. ...That is an exceeedingly weak argument... ...loads of religious blah blah blah Oh dear - its my fault - I should have completely ignored the first religious reference you posted please NO RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION HERE If you must discuss the subject please take it to the off topic section (if the general consensus is that I am wrong about this - I would be VERY surprised and disappointed) Have you ever had a battery go dead on you on stage in the middle of a song? Wouldn't it be useful to have an early indicator of the low power of your battery so you could avoid that, without wastefully having to swap out a perfectly usable battery 'just in case' the night before, as I have to presently? Are you so afraid of admitting that for once you might not be right? Not at all afraid to admit I'm wrong - when I'm wrong. You would need some fancy circuitry along with your LED before it was more useful as an indicator than the intuitive feel you get after even a little experience using a sustainer... you will know that the battery is new, or ok, or getting old by how it responds when you play - I know this from using a sustainer ! Anyway, I stated an opinion not a universal truth - you shouldn't need visual indicators on you guitar controls - that is my opinion, and it is a valid one that many others agree with. And of course there are lots of players who play while looking at their guitars/fingerboards etc. and who like this sort of thing - thats up to them. And there are folks who like lights on their gadgets - and I fully understand an accept that POV. (you see there - that bits on topic - kinda!) And if I choose to say 'God bless', and you interpret that as 'bringing religion into the forum', then does that mean that I should listen to you, or to God? Or do the rules of this forum outlaw one acting upon one's faith? Do whatever the veryHotBurnyPlaceWhereSatanLives you like! Col *PS. I was wrong ! (shock horror) After reading this it seem that I did want an argument after all. I've kinda lost the argument vibe now, but I'll post it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 If we don't leave it there, or take it elsewhere the moderators will lock this thread down. I can see where each is coming from and I do have my own views, but each to there own. I am happy to engage in anything, but really this thread is long enough and getting longer and if we get off topic for too long people who visit this thread expecting to see the latest in sustainer technology will be very disappointed... I don't want to have to stipulate no go areas, otherwise my personal musings will have to be cut too and then where would we be...probably 100 pages shorter...but I suppose we could count beliefs, musical tastes and LED's amoungst them if we're not careful. And for the record, my obsessive nature only manifests it self with certain things and under stress and I personally have an unhealthy taste for surf rock! Now...for those just tuned in, let's hear some tips for MRJ on this... I think it is going well, but I anticipate some problems when removing those bobbin plates due to the inner wind potting glue not being fully dry...anyone got any strategies that could aid in the release of the coil and keeping it in shape? Also, I forgot to mention that I was pleased to see the MRJ had stripped and soldered the wire ends before winding which will make getting a true reading much easier...if only I had done the same...I had to reclean the ends for every reading becuase of all the glue on my fingers and jig as I was winding risking and weakening the crucial inner lead every time... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Apologies in advance for the off topic and somewhat aggressive nature of this post - I hope any continuation of this can be taken to the off topic section where it can be left to die a natural death OK, first off, you have obviously made quite some effort to address the issues raised by my post, so although I am going to do my best to stay well clear of becoming argumentative, I would like to add a final note to the discussion - no pun intended ...Erm excuse me, but where did I imply that he was? I'm sorry, I can see how my answer may be misunderstood... My thinking is that if Holdsworth can do without a trem what he could do with one, then he didn't need one in the first place - however if you consider music by the likes of hendrix and van halen, you would not be able to reproduce it without some sort of trem ! So its not because Holdsworth is great, its because his music just don't need no trem ! No, sorry, but I don't buy that argument....if you listen very closely to Holdsworth's playing, which as you dislike it you obviously are not going to, you will find that even when he plays pure acoustic guitar (which he sometimes did in the '70s, he still sounds the same. He is still able to play legato and do all the same hammer-ons and pull-offs that he does on electric. This is especially true in relation to the microtonal bends he uses, and the way he has of anticipating a bend, which sounds like a whammy bar. If your fingers are capable of those nuances then good luck to you, but I know that even after many years wood-shredding, I am not. And it is not for the want of trying. Hendrix could be said to have mastery of certain skill, but there is absolutely no way that anyone could say that he had perfect technique. He was frankly a very sloppy player, and most of the time he was so out of his head, that he didn't realize just how out of tune he was - and his fingers were all over the place. But he made up for that with his skill in the use of feedback and effects and raw energy. But if we are going to talk about playing with emotion, for me there is no-one to touch Larry Carlton playing a ballad, he is about the only player who can really bring a lump to my throat...and that guy knows all there is to know about sustain and feedback. Gary Moore comes close to that emotional intensity also. but he is in a league of his own, and apart from Jeff Beck, at that time there were very very few guitarists capable of using a tremolo with subtelety. I disagree. It would be good if you were to qualify that statement....for example why do you disagree? who in your opinion had a similarly subtle tremolo technique? They are not of vastly different calibre - they are of similar calibre - I (and many others) would say if any was of higher calibre it would be Hendrix (he did play some awful stuff as well though).... they do/did play within very different genres though: Hendrix = widdly wanky psychadelic rock blues Van halen = widdly wanky american poodle rock Holdsworth = widdly wanky oh so serious and dull jazz/fusion They are/were all at the top of their genre, and capable of amazing feats of guitar musicianship and equally horrific fretboard wankery Here I agree with you, apart from your description of musical genre, as this is purely subjective and based upon your own feeling toward technical skill. You might want to look a little more closely at that, and compare it to your own level of mastery of the instrument. I have found that it is mostly the musicians who simply lack such ability who tend to put down accomplished players when they display such skills. What you perhaps fail to realize is that playing at that level of skill is about playing what you hear in your head, rather than playing form your dictionary of riffs and pentatonic and blues scales. This is where the idea of jazz harmony comes in, which you also put down. Holdsworth is actually playing through the changes, and as can be heard now that he no longer plays with a keyboard player, he actually outlines every single chord he is playing over perfectly. This is something the others you are comparing him to are simply incapable of doing, and that is what sets him above others. And he is able to improvise in that way with lightning speed and with a continuous inexhaustible flow of ideas. Later on you go on to say that he should never have played guitar. And you are correct when you say that his instrument of choice was the saxophone. Yet you fail to understand that he has actually been reinterpreting the musical statements made by such masters as John Coltrane, only no-one ever realized it until he released his first album of jazz standards. So I am sorry but it is not fair or accurate to describe him either to EVH or any of the other widdlers as you call them. You have to understand the jazz genre, and in particular Bebop - which I am sorry you cannot claim to do - before you can pretend to understand what Holdworth is playing. And what you do not understand you will not be equipped to feel either, because you will not understand his phrasing or rhythm. Now, there is no doubt that Holdsworth has played his share of rubbish, he is the first to admit that, and there are many albums that he would prefer not to be associated with. And certainly he could be accused of playing too many notes and not pausing enough. But to intimate that he plays without feeling is a terrible insult. Have you ever seen him play live? (to me, Holdsworth is kinda like the Yngwie Malmsteen of Jazz Fusion guitar, but thats just me I guess) ...and each according to the depth with which he has studied his instrument harmonically and melodically. Aside from that, if you genuinely feel that it is fair to compare someone with so much technical mastery of the fingerboard, who play 4 note per string scales without even thinking about it, and who is capable of employing teriary and quintal harmony with ease, with anyone else, then that is your affair. It sure is my affair, and compare I will - because you can spin as big a web of fantastical jazz theory jargon as you like - it doesn't make the music any better or worse, when you play you choose the notes and play them - when you listen, you hear the notes and they move you, or not as the case may be.... so calling it teriary and quintal harmony doesn't really matter much ! Sorry, I mispelt 'tertiary' in my haste - normally I am very careful about my spelling. But you are missing the point again. Holdsworth has always been a musician's musician. Because only a musician is really able to understand what he is doing and what he is trying to put across. And he is fully aware that that is his audience. It is music that demands full attention, and also understanding and comprehension. So it cannot really be judged by the same criteria as feel based music. He is not and never will be a blues player or a riff player, or even a rythmic player. That is not what he is about. And no doubt you would feel the same about John Coltrane's music, because you would have no idea where he was coming from either melodically or harmonically. But that does not mean that his music was not inspired and of extremely high calibre. All it means is that you are not equipped to appreciate it, so you reject it. Don't worry, you are not alone.... So basically I do get the point of what Holdsworth is trying to do, but for me it doesn't work and never has (I bought my first Holdsworth CD in the early 90s). So trying to discuss guitar playing and guitar music and using him as an ultimate reference just makes it difficult for us to communicate ! Do you realize that Holdsworth was already at an extraordinary level of mastery and skill on his instrument even before the 70's? Yet you only picked up on him in the 90's, so how can you possibly expect to understand what was doing then or now? What about the many bands he played in such as UK, Gong, Jean-Luke Ponty, Tony Williams Lifetime, IOU, etc. There has been an ongoing progression through many styles and many genres of music. Actually I no longer regard him as being the epitome of the art, because there are players who were inspired by him who are even more talented, such as Scott Henderson. But really to say that there is neither life nor honesty in Holdsworth's playing and that it does not work makes me wonder what I am doing in this conversation...you obviously are prejudiced towards your own conceptual limitations, and are content to stay in that space, which is fine. Except that you are really insulting the man behind his back, and from an uninformed perspective. And that kind of puts my back up. No doubt when I eventually get a recording of my own stuff online you will be equally insulting towards my compositions and my musical expression. Do whatever the veryHotBurnyPlaceWhereSatanLives you like! Col *PS. I was wrong ! (shock horror) you know what they say about sarcasm.... After reading this it seem that I did want an argument after all. I've kinda lost the argument vibe now, but I'll post it anyway. Well, that was honest of you.....now just let me say that you are the only person to have objected so far to my statement about Jimmy Page - and incidentally I am not saying anything I would not say to his face. So I don't think you should be the one to make the decision whether or not it should be allowed. And there is really no reason for your aggressive attitude, other than your own feelings. If you feel you want to stand up for JP or IM or indeed Marilyn Manson, (after all they aren't devil worshippers are they, no of course not, after all Anton la Vey wasn't for real was he - what church of Satan? - no such thing....), then on your own head be it, but you should find out first whether my statement was valid, and whether it had any basis in fact. Then perhaps you might be equipped to confront me. Until then, keep your insults to yourself and visit a forum where you can flame to your heart's content and get the venom out of your system. Because this is the first and last time that I will accept it from you. So let's agree to differ and leave it where it is, life is too short to waste on bickering for the sake of it. OK? Just try being a little more tactful, you never know, it might change your life for the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 ...(after all they aren't devil worshippers are they, no of course not, after all Anton la Vey wasn't for real was he - what church of Satan? - no such thing....) *waits for someone who actually knows about Satanism (such as myself) to chime in to point out the fallacy of such a comment* So, lovely weather today, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Well, about removing the coils -- I'm letting them dry overnight, then I will remove the temp bobbins. It will still be wet, but will hold its general shape. I'll then cut the final holes in the permanent bobbins (made from the same plastic, but with a definite size and shape) for each core to slide into. From there I can squeeze the coils together permanently and stuff. *Ignore my ohm readings thus far, I don't think my stupid multimeter was even near being calibrated! It was reading about 3-4ohms when touching the 2 probes.....* For clarity, I will post exact results in a very neat fashion later, but for not for now. Ah, try listening to Van Halen while you build your sustainer.....somehow they just go together; guitar building and Van Halen. I would suggest these nifty (sustainer) tracks: Rise Catherine It's About Time (?) etc. more later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 *Ignore my ohm readings thus far, I don't think my stupid multimeter was even near being calibrated! It was reading about 3-4ohms when touching the 2 probes.....* Yikes, thats not good at all. Try some new batteries. I know mine will give funky readings when the batteries are running low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Maybe..... I don't know. Either way, the sustainer HAS to be around the ~8ohm mark since I overwound each one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Hey there...welcome back Primal I had the same problem...after not doing any electronics for a while, I was getting odd readings from the analogue meter...I went and got out a digital...not working too well...so went to find another...all with glue all over my hands and unable to change the battery with out a screwdriver...and a battery. The batteries on these things last for a long time, but they do go...perhaps they should have a low battery indicator...may be an LED... Ah, try listening to Van Halen while you build your sustainer.....somehow they just go together; guitar building and Van Halen. Good plan...not too heavy, not to light... If I hadn't gone with the plan for my driver finish...particularly if I wanted to create a testing device...I would probably have gone with this epoxy putty I have. You can get it from a hardware store...it comes in a tube and has a white outerlayer and a grey innerlayer of putty....you pull off a piece that contains both layers and knead it together...you get about 5 mins to work it till it dries and it can be cut with a sharp knife and sanded with ease. That's what that white stuff is on the ends of the coils. It even stuck to the electrician's tape that surrounds them and could be chipped off and replaced to fix my almost disasterous wiring fault. You could hape the whole thing in this stuff then sand it down to size and paint it up as an option...just a thought... It may well be that it holds together fine...I tend to worry about this kind of part...hope all goes well and if the readins are way off or it doesn't work out as planned...you could always test it in series or just to see what happens, perhaps a lower ohmage would be more responsive and give clues to further ideas for developing a "formula" for the device, making it easier for other's to follow in the future. pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 *Ignore my ohm readings thus far, I don't think my stupid multimeter was even near being calibrated! It was reading about 3-4ohms when touching the 2 probes.....* Yikes, thats not good at all. Try some new batteries. I know mine will give funky readings when the batteries are running low. Another thing to be careful of particularly with cheaper meters (expensive equipment gets more care) is that the leads and plugs can be easily damaged, not enough to stop it working completely, but just enough to give plausible but false readings.... One more thing is that if your meter doesn't get a lot of use it might be a good idea to clean the lead plugs and sockets just to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 (edited) Well, still not sure whats up with my multimeter -- it is analog, and old, so I may just get a new digital one. After waiting almost exactly 24 hours, I pulled off the temporary bobbins and the coil was perfect. I don't mean the winding was perfect, it's probably pretty bad, but the coil had a perfect outer coating of dry PVA glue, and the inside was still squishy, so I could easily work with it. It kept its overall shape since the outside was solid, but still squeezed and could be manupulated on the inside! I then poured more PVA glue on both coils and slipped my permanent bobbins over the top and bottom of either core. I was able to sqeeze the coils together a litttle, forcing them to be a more efficient shape (instead of bowing out as much at the center.) Now I'm gonna let the thing dry for 2 or 3 days before I use some sort of filler glue around the edges, and meanwhile I will perfect (to me that means try to badly solder it enough to get it working consistantly) my circutry and finish the sustainer guitar (MRJ #XS002). Here is its general setup -- (no power on off switch yet, my Radio Shack "solderable" part melted itself before the leads were hot enough to melt the solder!) And yes, that is my single core sustainer -- I'm going to test the guitar with it first, and make some videos for youtube so that we can compare a single core in a given guitar with a given circut to a dual core in that same setup later. -MRJ Edited June 13, 2007 by mrjstudios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 (edited) By the way-- Do these sustainers get hot enough on the inside to melt my LOW/MID-TEMP hot glue? I would really like to use it to fill in once my driver dries, and I don't think the sustainer would ever get nearly hot enough to melt anything, but I thought I would ask... -MRJ Edited June 13, 2007 by mrjstudios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 Do these sustainers get hot enough on the inside to melt my LOW/MID-TEMP hot glue? No...they can get warm with extended use, but not that warm I wouldn't think. It may be an idea to cover and pretty up the coils with electrical tape. This can be stretched and hold the coils in shape and protect them....you could do the same over the hot melt glue for a finish similar to mine...cut it lengthways to the depth of the coil... It all looks good and I am impressed with the way you have put it together and that my fears were unfounded...little hard to tell what the ohmage is, it doesn't look like as much wire as mine...but then it could be the photo...hard to tell. It also shows how the sides will not fit close to the blade yet be very tight at the ends...this is to some extent unavoidable...but a major cause of inefficiency and potential internal vibration and must be addressed. I tend to push the sides in as I wind, but even then the effect is still there. When building my new driver I could see that it was going to be tight...the magnets are 5mm so that will give the distance between the blades...that means a side coil width of 2.5mm each maximum. With my coil I had a 1mm gap between the blades and the magnet that just wasn't going to work so I squeezed them and squeezed the sides forcing out a lot of glue and air...my driver is quite heavy for it's size...it is a solid lump of steel and copper and magnets...absolutely solid... I am still concerned that it won't quite work as intended...a little busy at the moment, but am working on the strats rewire, will need to up the string guage from the factory 9's to 10's and build a circuit. I have delayed building the bottom plate untill I remove the middle pickup as I intend to use this as a template for a strip of aluminium...the driver will be glued to this and then mount like the pickup. My pickup rout is quite deep and there is a fair space between the strings and the top of the body (no pickguard) so the driver will sit high. The aluminium base plate has obvious cosmetic reasons, fitting with the look of the driver and the guitar...but it also may form a shield to protect the new circuit proposal that I will try to fit below it. My idea is to incorporate the poweramp into the driver as well...I will need to run signal wires and power wires to the driver (the LED's will take power from them)...this mans the invasive driver leads will be non-existant! To make this really effective though, I need to work out a preamp which will enable phase reversal...I could do with a hand here. As the poweramp is a bit more powerful than the LM386 version, it may only need to be a buffer. Anyway...still nutting out this superswitch wiring...it should be noted with this custom type wiring, some settings may themselves be out of phase and if these are the source for the sustainer, the harmonic function will be reversed whith these selections. It may be that an adventurous wiring scheme could do away with the harmonic switch, just as we appear to have agreed to do away with the sensitvity control. Looking good MRJ, keeping us on track and you will soon have overtaken me with the device...in testing it, see how close you can get yours to work near the bridge pickup if you can...cheers... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 The driver itself went together great, but I am really worried about the ohm readings. Even with new batteries, and depending on the calibration, I have gotten readings that either one is 17ohms and the other 12.5ohms, or one is 10ohms and the other is 8ohms. Since you (PSW) noticed that my driver looked like it had less wire than yours, I am even more worried. I did about 230 turns for each coil -- with the .2mm wire, which is supposed to give you about 16+ohms by my calculations/guesswork. Does that sound right? If so, then I think I'm good to go and I'll continue with the current coils. If the 230 turns sounds wrong, then perhaps the multimeter is right when it says my ohmage is too low.... and I'll have to start over with the coils (same unit though).... good thing I bought a ton of .2mm wire! For now, I'm just trying to get the sustainer guitar up and running with my single coil sustainer (the youtube one). Once that works perfectly and reliably, and whenever I can figure out the coil situation, then I'll test the dual coil driver. By the way, has it been concluded that dual coils in parallel are superior to ones wired in series? Because 2 x 4ohm coils is not only easier to build, it is more efficient (in the time it takes the current to traverse its length) and much smaller/compact (which I thought was better for the magnetic field created by the coil....) -MRJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 Oh, if this helps, each coil is: ~230 turns Height of ~4.35mm (average) width (out from core) 6.6mm Length of 65mm I hope this is about what you got PSW, if not bigger, and that it was only the pictures that made my coils look smaller. -MRJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 That photo... may be deceptive...you really can't tell from looking at it... I did'nt go by number or winds (I lost count fairly quickly...was watching tV...but got to 200 I recall)...I rent roughly by size then started taking readings. Once I had done one coil I had something to aim for (size wise) with the other, but the coil looked visibly slightly bigger...then I discovered that my meter seemed to be having a few problems too...in the end they were slightly unbalanced but cam out to be about 8.2 when combined in parallel... By the way, has it been concluded that dual coils in parallel are superior to ones wired in series? Because 2 x 4ohm coils is not only easier to build, it is more efficient (in the time it takes the current to traverse its length) and much smaller/compact (which I thought was better for the magnetic field created by the coil....) Yes...well that's why I was asking...but more winds is also more power and then there is the core to think about...mine a very thin, so there is not much too them....and also the design...with the HB like magnetic sructure, both coils are toward the string and are attracted to eachother...they will have less throw so may need to be pretty close to the strings ( a possible plus for a bilateral design like sustainiac uses combining both SC and HB magnetic characteristics)... So...perhaps more efficient, but less powerful and so require more power for the same effect...thus more EMI...hmmm We haven't even talked about coil material and it's effects...your cores are highly magnetic but I suspect hold a magnetic charge....resisting change to an opposite state from the coil in response to the AC signal. A material like ferrite is theoretically idea...extremely magnetic but gives it up easily...hence it's use in inductors and such...but this stuff is impossible to work and is it worth it. The point is that there are so many things we need to comprimise for practicallity... The main thing is that it works. In particular the high string response. I got the strongest response from the b string on the sustainer strat (similar effect to the SC driver in it) so perhaps there is something in the circuit treble bias that needs to be adjusted for this unit...or it may improve with installation. I also seemed to get a stronger harmonic response, even when not in harmonic mode with the lower strings...but a little less high string response... The obvious compromise is to change the "formula"...thinner wire will make a coil of less winds too (as we discussed) but still run in parallel and be more compact too. Col's driver BTW is a series 4 ohm per coil (0.2mm wire) device and works well for him in the neck position...better than the SC design he says. Not good enough to run in the middle position...for that we need everything going for us. Sustainiac requires a distance of 3.5 inches between the pickup and it's drivers...we are looking towards 3 centremetres or less for the mid pickup... That is why on my first device (if you ignore the LED's) I put as much into it as possible...very tight solid coils, close blades, solid construction, metal outer blades...most of these things are shown to be effective in helping the driver in it's task...certainly it worked in testing but unfortunately I was not able to get any resonable idea if it would work in the mid position from testing. While there are other pickups in the guitar, this can't be tested from above...and it may well be that the device will have to be tested in it's installed position to really tell if it is going to work. This top loaded guitar makes this very easy to try. I am so committed now to getting the mid-driver thing down that I am prepared to put this one aside and build on the experience to make another with thinner wire or any other design considerations. Now that I have developed an easy construction technique that suits me and have made the jigs, building more of different specs is not so daunting...may even result in a recomended construction technique for other's to follow... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 Oh, if this helps, each coil is: ~230 turns Height of ~4.35mm (average) width (out from core) 6.6mm Length of 65mm I hope this is about what you got PSW, if not bigger, and that it was only the pictures that made my coils look smaller. -MRJ Oh ok...posted while I posted...my coils are only 3mm deep so they would look thicker...should be ok but you will want to measure it at some point I'd say... Otherwise it looks pretty good...there is an interest at Guitar Nuts sustainer thread and I put a photo up of the way you are making yours as an alternative to the way I made mine... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 That diagram is a little misleading BTW. The coils would be much thinner. Well, gee *sigh*, I didn't know that I was supposed to make the diagram to perfect scale! :D Anyway -- you're right, it is a bit misleading to a beginner to the sustainer 'field' in guitar building. Good summary of this forum's progress on that site. As long as you didn't go over 300 turns on yours or something then I should be ok (despite what my stupid meter tells me every other time or so now.....) I don't think our .2mm wire could have that drastic of a resistance difference per turn -- in otherwords, I think since we both got in the range of 200+ turns, then mine should be ok. I think today I will fill in with HOT GLUE like you epoxy'd yours, and see about some sort of non-conductive/non-metallic/non-magnetic casing (probably more nice white scrap garbage can plastic). -MRJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidouri Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Hello! I'm new in this forum ,I just registered in fact, and the reason I did is the sustainer project. Two days have past since I first read this thread (not all of it of course,It's huge!!!!!!!) and I decided to build one. Now the problem is that my knowledge on electronics is very limited, also I'm not a native speaker so the terminology on this stuff gives me an extra headache. Here's my questions preamp/amp unit: If you could please make a list of the little things needed to build the Fetzer/Ruby circuit I would be very grateful. A tutorial how to build the unit and the layout of the circuit would be also very welcome. In case you don't have the time or the patience to assist me on that, I have found the following amp circuit at an electronics store Could this work ? And could I add an on/off switch,volume pot or what else is needed? and where exactly in the circuitry? On Driver : I'll build the driver using an old single coil pickup I found in my drawers. I bought 40m of coil wire 0.5mm thick and it gives me 4Ω would that be enough? or I need 8Ω ? the circuitry i posted above says 4-8Ω so... could it work ? Connectivity The guitar I'll use has only one bridge Humbucker pick up and a volume pot so how I connect this with the sustainer? I really want to build this so help me please! I want to sustain for ever! Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Aidouri For starters, I have no idea if the amp you showed would work or not, but I do know that the Fetzer/Ruby does work. Here is the part list for a Fetzer/Ruby amp: R=Resistor, C=Capacitor, IC1=L386 audio amp, Q1=N-Channel General Purpose amp J201, VR= Variable Resistor That picture is also a very good way to arrange the components, since the layout is not too cramped and therefore easier to solder. Build the circut first, and then we'll work on testing it with a .5-1watt 8ohm speaker on your guitar. Please elaborate on what you think you are going to build the driver with. Usually more work than just re-winding a pickup is required for a good, efficient sustainer. Right off the bat, I am worried about the .5mm wire. That is twice the thickness of the thickest stuff I have ever seen used. (I used a very-thick-by-the-standards-set-here .25mm wire for mine, which did work ok.) -MRJSTUDIOS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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