psw Posted August 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 Welcome "TheEdge"... by the way if you really were "the Edge" for U2 you wouldn't need to build a sustainer as he regularly uses one! The circuit is pretty easy compared to a lot of stompboxes, most use the fetzer/ruby but I suggested a few modifications and it might be worth looking of recent posts here by Risingforce who did a layout with these mods. The driver can be made a few ways. You will need to get 0.2mm enameled winding wire. I did a pictorial of me actually winding a driver on top of a pickup and you should look at that and the tutorial linked at the bottom of this and everyone of my posts first. Winding onto a pickup is one way. Check out the blueteleful telecaster project also linked below to see my latest version of it not on a pickup. Epoxy winding as on this one is not suggested for DIY, but you can make your own bobbin or adapt and old single coil pickup to make a similar device. I suggest using white wood glue (we call it PVA in australia) or similar waterbased slow drying glue) to "pot" the coil while winding. It is important that the coil is solid and free from any internal vibration... Above is the driver I made for the telecaster. It has 4 small ceramic magnets in a row with a blade shaped from ordinary 3mm steel and wrapped with 8 ohms of 0.2mm wire to a depth of about 3mm. A more practical DIY version would require that a top be placed on the blade to hold the wires in place and to support it. Do not use a machine to wind the coil, it should not have any more than 200 turns on it (go by resistance) so hand winding is fine and easier. it is possible to build a fully working sustainer? Yes it is an a lot of people have been successful. A lot of people have also failed for various reasons. The best advice is to build a driver and circuit without modifying the guitar in any way and testing it by holding the driver over the strings above the neck and away from the pickups. I find the hardest thing is the installation and it is complex. The complexity also depends a lot on the guitar...a single bridge pickup guitar is very easy, a two pickup guitar is often ok, a three pickup guitar like a strat is a lot more difficult and a lot of fancy wiring will often have to be removed to simplify things. Another thing is that I describe a basic single coil driver. On a lot of guitars with humbucking pickups in the neck there is no room to add a separate driver and converting an HB pickup is a little untested. It might be an idea to post a pic of your guitar and how you think you might want to do this. The driver is the key to success with this and you might have to wind a couple of them to get better at it (it only takes about 10 minutes to actually wind one). I don't speak or write Italian but I know that there are people who watch the thread who do. Reading this thread will only confuse you more, so I advise that you look at the shorter tutorial things and ask questions here. I hope all that helps... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEdge Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 (edited) Thanks Pete! I understand almost everything.. About the guitar..no problem because it is a guitar I'm re.building so, right now, it has no pickup, so I can put the driver where I want.. About the driver, I have some old and cheap single coil that I could use, but I'm not sure it could work.. Maybe the best thing would be buying the parts from Stewart-MacDonald..like this: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_p...ckup_Parts.html with this I could adjust the coil height to 3mm, I think.. Do I need 6 magnets or a big single magnet like the one on your tele? I'd like to use a cover like this: Edited August 13, 2008 by TheEdge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 Hey...cool covers...where do they come from! Due to time difference, it is quite late here...so no usual long reply... About the driver, I have some old and cheap single coil that I could use, but I'm not sure it could work.. Thats a good place to start...you need to try and get some 0.2mm wire...using an old pickup is the best place to start even if you were to build another later. You can wind on the bobbin blocking the lower half leaving 3mm at the top... what ever you present pickup has is usually ok...the blade 9is mainly to avoid any drop out of sustain if bending string, but generally you end up bending to the next pole anyway so it not so bad and looks more like a pickup! better run... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEdge Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 the cover: http://www.specialtyguitars.com/p/01-03125.html I'll take a pic of my single coil and post it here to show you if it may be good to start.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 I have received a few PM's about the sustainer thread and in the last week or so a sudden 1000 views or more I was prompted to seek out this post from a ways back that I think is a correct circuit with the improvements I suggested on the F/R design. Hello! I still can't get my sustainer work, here it is . I'm out of answers... picture link: http://www.timelessfields.com/test.jpg As I have not tested this layout or even this design, take care to check it and if built please verify that it works but as I recall this or something like it was a working version (though I know the connections are all wrong and back to front!)... To read more about this you can get to this part of the thread through pushing the little pink arrow in the quote. Also...if people are trying to navigate this crazy thread...check out the options box and select "outline"...that might help! We really need to make another tutorial I think but I don't know that I have time right now. The tutorials are also a little outdated and old. I have tried to update it with some developments from time to time but it can be misleading. Anyway...hope that gives a few clues for now and people should check out the tutorials and other things about that are a lot shorter to get the general idea before getting to deep into this thread. This thread is really for discussion so it is long, often repetitive and contains very old information at times. It would appear to still be popular but as you can imagine takes a lot of my time and dedication...lately I seem to be the only one giving advice which makes it even trickier. pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEdge Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 (edited) here is a pic of my pickup.. Do you think I could use on the back side to have the blade magnet? and could I use this wire? http://banzaieffects.com/Wire-enameled-0-2...17564.html#tabs Edited August 13, 2008 by TheEdge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 The wire is the right stuff but at 156 metres that is way too much. I don't know what the conversion rate is but generally copper is very expensive. I would try and find a smaller reel of the stuff...what is that in dollars, euro's are very confusing. Perhaps seek out electric motor rewinders and repairers, they may be able to sell smaller quantities cheaper. The wire can be tricky to find and it is important to get the right size...recycling wire rarely works should anyone be tempted. The wire is not as fine as pickup wire is easy to wind without risk of breaking. You will need to scrape the wire to get a reading from it, you will see the wire shiny when the enamel insulation is scraped or sanded off and take a few readings, the glue will recoat the wire and prevent shorting. The pickup looks fine, I think that reversing it would not be a good idea at all though. Use it as is but block up the lower half with plastic or cardboard and leave about 3mm in the top (pole) part to wind the coil on. Putting magnets very close to the strings is inviting problems with the magnet pulling the strings out of tune or effecting the natural vibration and sustain of the guitar...not good! Plus, you get to put the cover back on and hide it. An interesting pickup...do you know what brand of guitar it came from and how it mounts into the guitar? A lot of people assume that the "blade" design I often use is necessary...it works well, but in most of my more recent pickup drivers I have used pole pickups and they work fine. There may be a little drop in sustain drive if bent between the poles but most bends are of a step and these tend to push the sting well into the field of an adjoining pole anyway. Often you can hardly tell the difference, you don't notice a sudden drop in volume from string bending when using pole pickups after all. If making a driver from scratch with out a pickup conversion however, it is an easier thing to construct and materials easier and cheaper to get. Some people have sought to use more exotic techniques such as laminated ores (as in a transformer) and ferrite would be a great material except that it is impossible to shape. Really though, I have had no problem with ordinary steel and if it works, it works right...no need to get fancy unless there is a real reward to be gained that is worth the cost and effort. Using a pickup bobbin like this is by far the easiest approach and many people have had success with this method. You will still need all the glue and tape and prepare well before commencing the winding, take a close look at my linked tutorial as this shows exactly the way the driver was made successfully. pete PS...for fans of the blueteleful Telecaster (see link below) here is a pic of the guitar with my amp setup... I use a fender hotrod deluxe and AD100 analog delay. If I want to sound louder, I can use this bass box with 15" speaker to produce a big sound and move a lot of air. I like a clean sound and one of the things that a sustainer guitar can do that other technologies can not do is provide clean sustain and harmonic effects. Generally to get feedback naturally, you need to be very loud and generally distorted and be standing in just the right place in a given room. A sustainer allows loud amp sensitivity and sustain regardless of volume or tone. Of course it sounds great with distortion too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEdge Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 (edited) really cool guitar Pete! does your sustainer provide clean sustain? ps. that 156 meters are about 10 us$, so pretty cheap.. the pickup is a yamaha pickup from a cheap yamaha guitar I should limit the height to 3mm and add 2 eyelet for the 2 cables of the pickup.. Edited August 14, 2008 by TheEdge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 really cool guitar Pete! does your sustainer provide clean sustain? ps. that 156 meters are about 10 us$, so pretty cheap.. the pickup is a yamaha pickup from a cheap yamaha guitar I should limit the height to 3mm and add 2 eyelet for the 2 cables of the pickup.. Oh...ok...well then yes that wire looks ok. Eyelets if you want them, but I wouldn't by them. The wire is a lot thicker than pickup wire and easy to handle. Yes...the guitar provides very clean sustain and harmonics. My new circuit has a different drive control providing very clean sustain from 0-8 and a little light overdrive from 8-10 on the control and the AGC (automatic gain control) is reduced giving a more wild and sensitive effect. I am very happy with the results on this guitar. The only "fault" is a potential switch "pop" on turn off...but this only occurs if there is no sound on the guitar...the solution is only to turn the thing on and off while the guitar is actually sustaining of playing a note or chord...then it is silent. I am getting superb results on this guitar but it is difficult to say how much this relates to the pickups, both of which are unusual and humbucking with a fair amount of power. I imagine that I might have to try it on another cheap traditional tele to see if it works as well on one of these. pete for more on the telecaster...click the blue link below and watch for GOTM entry and sounds in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEdge Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 another little question.. The pickup I'm using..as you can see in the pic..have plastic between the poles and where the wire should be..so this could be an issue? Does the wire should contact the poles directly or it doesn't matter if there's plastic between? thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 The above picture is a remarkably similar pickup conversion in which the bottom half was "blocked up" to leave space for winding above the plastic glued in there. Cardboard or wood is fine too. This comes from a good tutorial on this project and great software for doing circuit layouts and posting them here...DIY Layout Creator, DIY Sustainer Page The wire should not touch the poles, I usually wind a little tape around the blade or poles to protect the wire from possible shorting, breaking or future corrosion. The plastic is fairly thin and shouldn't make too much difference... hope that clears it up and anyone interested could do well to check out that link as it is clearer than a lot of my stuff... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEdge Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 perfect! Now I can try the winding! I just need to understand where and when and how to put the glue during the winding..but I think I'll understand that with praticing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 See the pictorial linked below on my pickup driver...use waterbased wood glue, start winding a little, then put plenty of glue in there...it will squeeze out as you wind...add more as needed. Before winding prepare some PVC electrical tape to the size of the coil edge (3mm) so that when you have finished you can bind it together tight... If something goes wrong, wood glue (we call it PVA) amkes it easy to pull apart and try again, even after it has dried. Take your time, make it reasonably tight without stretching the wire and neat as you can. The sides of the coil always bulge (there is more tension in the ends)...as you wind, push the sides in a little and after tape, use some sticks or something clamped (or use rubber bands) to hold the sides in while you wait till it dries. It is very easy to do, does not take very long...but it is the most important element in this system and anything too sloppy will effect the performance. My tele driver reads 7.9 ohms I think and you can see with some experience you can get it quite compact...you will have it a little easier as you are winidng onto a bobbin...good luck.,.. pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arizonagt Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 I'm very new to electronics (and brand new to this forum) and I was looking for a bit of advice. First on the driver I have an old single coil I'm planning on modifying as explained HERE. This is where I'm having trouble. The guitar I plan on modifying currently has a Dimarzio Steve's Special bridge pickup (390mV) and I was wondering if i needed to bother with the whole Fetzer thing or if it has a high enough output that I could get away with just using the Ruby amplifier. It looks like the parts required for the ruby amplifier are (from above site): LM386 power amp DIL8 IC socket 2x 100K trimmer 1K trimmer Resistors: 1M, 1.5K, 68K Caps: 22n, 100nF, 22uF, 100uF, 220uF JFET J201 Could someone correct me if I am wrong? Also how would I go about wiring the circuit into the guitar, would I just wire the bridge pickup to the output as well as the input for the amplifier or is there something more complicated involved? Could someone point me in the direction of a website that sells all of the required parts for the amplifier? I live far from anywhere that would sell the required parts. Finally even though it's probably been done before could someone please post (or direct me to) clear pictures of the ruby amplifier? I honestly have no clue as to what most of the symbols on the schematics represent so it would be nice to see the actual thing in stead. Thanks for any help you can provide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Welcome arizonagt to PG and the ever growing sustainer thread... I'm very new to electronics (and brand new to this forum) and I was looking for a bit of advice. Well, I can give advice but I should warn you that this is a fairly advanced project that many people have failed at. It will eventually (if you get it working!) involve a complete rewire of the guitar. You mention the bridge HB...are there other pickups involved? Personally, while many have used the Fetzer/Ruby, I have not...I have recommended some improvements and pointed in that direction in the last page or so. You were right not to attempt to read this thread BTW, perhaps look at the least few pages, a member...TheEdge...is currently doing exactly what you are planning. You should look at the tutorial and pictorials linked at the end of my posts...check out my new telecaster while you are at it to see my latest version. If you are not familiar with electronics, I would try and find someone that can help a little...it is not necessary to know a lot and the circuit is easier than a lot of stompbox circuits for instance...the driver is the most crucial bit and where a lot of people come unstuck. You say you are far away from everywhere...but not where in the world you live. As I am in Australia, I may not be the best person to advise on this either. As well as the parts you list, there are a few more to my modified version...then there are things like switches and such that will be required to get it into a guitar. First you need to understand what you are getting yourself into. You will need a decent soldering iron for electronics, flux cored solder and a multimeter is essential for a start. Finding the 0.2mm wire in small quantities seems to be a particular problem, Mouser electronics and small bear, etc will have all the electronic components required. As for the fetzer...yes you do need a preamp stage...a ruby type circuit (with similar mods as I suggested) may well work as it does have a buffer as I recall, but this transistor stage is required to avoid loading any passive pickup. You can not plug directly into an LM386 circuit without loosing a lot of power and tone. EMG and other active systems may be an exception, but I don't recall anyone doing it without the preamp stage. I have my own circuit design that I hope one day to offer as a kit...but this is still in the works. I'd like to know how much a circuit costs to build up though as I ahve no idea what to charge for such a thing...remember I would probably need to build it so my time has to be factored in, plus postage! Also how would I go about wiring the circuit into the guitar, would I just wire the bridge pickup to the output as well as the input for the amplifier or is there something more complicated involved? If this is a one pickup guitar, this is pretty much it...plus a switch to turn the power to the circuit on and off. A gain control can also be of use on the outside of the guitar but not essential if you don't have a spot for a spare pot. On a single pickup guitar a push pull pot could be used to activate it and another for the harmonic switch (dpdt)...in practice, toggle switches are easier to use. If there is any other pickups things can get very complex and difficult...sometimes impossible! Hope that helps a bit for starters...give me a bit more detail and look at those threads and recent pages here as I probably have answered a lot of questions you will have in recent weeks for "the edge"...in fact he may be able to advise you more pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripthorn Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Hey Pete, thanks for all the info and diligence here. I have read several times that you use a modified circuit as opposed to the published Fetzer Ruby. Would you mind posting a schematic (or if you already have, posting it again, since I haven't waded through this whole thing...)? I am thinking of trying to implement this in a strat type guitar but with no apparent control additions. I was thinking of making the second volume knob the volume of the circuit to the driver and making the five way switch into my selector (bridge sustainer off/bridge and neck sustainer off/neck only sustainer off/bridge sustainer on normal/bridge sustainer on harmonic mode). Would this work with just the average five way selector? I know this might require some serious rewiring inside, but that is no big deal. Is there any easy way to invert the phase of the circuit output without using a dpdt? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Welcome ripthorn... I have read several times that you use a modified circuit as opposed to the published Fetzer Ruby. Would you mind posting a schematic I have used a lot of different circuits. Presently I use one of my own design that is a bit more sophisticated (but not a lot) than a F/R or similar as it has rudimentary automatic gain control...it is still LM386 based. I have not and won't at the moment publish this one as I hope to make it available as a kit or something at some point...but previously the F/R or like has worked ok. There are design flaws in the F/R and I discussed them a while back and in the last couple of pages I brought a layout back that linked back to that discussion submitted by Risingforce that included those modifications. Without building and testing it myself, I am reluctant to verify anything, but if it works for others then it can be considered good I guess. I am thinking of trying to implement this in a strat type guitar but with no apparent control additions. That is going to be very difficult if not impossible! I was thinking of making the second volume knob the volume of the circuit to the driver and making the five way switch into my selector (bridge sustainer off/bridge and neck sustainer off/neck only sustainer off/bridge sustainer on normal/bridge sustainer on harmonic mode). Would this work with just the average five way selector? I am a little lost here...what about the middle and neck pickups? If there is only one pickup on a guitar, well that makes it a lot easier...just turn it on. Two pickups are trickier...three very difficult. A selector could be used but not a standard one...most likely a super switch which is a 4p5t switch would be required...again if there is only one pickup...maybe there are other options. I know this might require some serious rewiring inside, but that is no big deal. That's easy for you to say, but have you attempted a wiring diagram? Is there any easy way to invert the phase of the circuit output without using a dpdt? NO...you need to reverse the phase of the driver wires...with a single pickup guitar perhaps the signal which would have the same effect. Potentially a super switch may be able to handle this function with one pickup...the wiring will be complex I expect. You could use a push pull pot for the harmonic switch as these are dpdt...that is how I did it on my new tele version. However, putting it into the drive control may be a problem. Push pulls come in standard 250-500k but my drive control is a 1K pot for my new circuit...sometimes a 10k on a fetzer ruby...it depends where you place it. Either way, in order to do this I had to build a pot to spec by taking apart a compatible 1k and inserting the guts into a 500k push pull to get a correct value to make this possible. Making things "stealth" is kind of an attractive thing, but not always the most practical (or sometimes possible) not the easist thing to use. I have a strat in limbo now for almost a year through an attempt to make extensive modifications...this is the result... I notice from this another issue in your plan...battery access. On a strat you can't really put the battery in the control cavity as you will need to get to it regularly. On the above, you can see the battery clip sticking out behind the tremolo...tis involved very tricky routing of the guitar to fit it in there. In order to maximise functions without apparent switches on the guitar I invented and manufactured special pots that both twist and pull...inside the twist function operates 2 dpdt to make a 4pdt switching function... on the surface of the guitar it looks like this... the knob pulls up a dpdt switch (say the harmonic function) while the base twists operating a 4pdt function. Clever, clean and tricky...but not suitable for a conventional strat...notice that the pots are held in by screws in the back! This guitar has become "overloaded" and so looks like a computer gone wrong. I am likely to strip all of this out and start again as it is just too complex really. It isn't just a sustainer of course, this guitar had everything thrown at it...probably a really bad idea. And all those tricky pots because I didn't want to drill a tiny hole into the top of the guitar for a little toggle switch...seems a little silly now! As well as the tricky pots, there is a super switch in this guitar, and a piezo in the neck...the end result is that theis great guitar is hanging on the wall unplayed for a year even though it has all new superb pickups in it and plays like a dream...what a waste...and a warning, don't get too ambitious and..."even though you can do something, does not mean that you should"! Anyway...a few answers and some more questions I guess... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arizonagt Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 (edited) You say you are far away from everywhere...but not where in the world you live. As I am in Australia, I may not be the best person to advise on this either. As well as the parts you list, there are a few more to my modified version...then there are things like switches and such that will be required to get it into a guitar. First you need to understand what you are getting yourself into. You will need a decent soldering iron for electronics, flux cored solder and a multimeter is essential for a start. Finding the 0.2mm wire in small quantities seems to be a particular problem, Mouser electronics and small bear, etc will have all the electronic components required. Also how would I go about wiring the circuit into the guitar, would I just wire the bridge pickup to the output as well as the input for the amplifier or is there something more complicated involved? If this is a one pickup guitar, this is pretty much it...plus a switch to turn the power to the circuit on and off. A gain control can also be of use on the outside of the guitar but not essential if you don't have a spot for a spare pot. On a single pickup guitar a push pull pot could be used to activate it and another for the harmonic switch (dpdt)...in practice, toggle switches are easier to use. If there is any other pickups things can get very complex and difficult...sometimes impossible! Hope that helps a bit for starters...give me a bit more detail and look at those threads and recent pages here as I probably have answered a lot of questions you will have in recent weeks for "the edge"...in fact he may be able to advise you more pete As far as location I'm in Hawaii so i'm incredibly limited as far as stores. The guitar currently has two humbuckers but i'm planning to completely remove the neck pickup and use only the bridge so it will be simply a one pickup guitar. Basically my only experience thus far is completely re-wiring most of my guitars for various reasons (swapping out pickups, replacing bad pots, etc.) but nothing really more complicated. In regard to the parts I have all of the switches i'll need laying around from other guitar modifications that turned out to be impractical. As for the tools I'm completely set as well, i just need the parts for the amplifier circuit and the wire for the driver. And thank you for the helpful response. Edited August 20, 2008 by arizonagt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 That's ok arizonagt Your the first from a pacific island...you are half way to Australia Most parts can be ordered on line...I should really get my act together and sell off some of my stuff and maybe I couls do something about the wire which is the hardest part. I know somewhere someone adapted an old HB into a driver on a two pickup guitar by stripping out one of the coils and winding a driver onto one of the bobbins...it seemed to work ok (Primal was the user...but it is a long way back in this thread). Of course it destroys the pickup...but the end result looks as if it is a normal HB. As it will end up being a one pickup guitar switching and installation is very easy and I am sure you will be able to handle it. Just a simple switch to turn on power and dpdt to switch harmo9nic mode. A selector might be able to do it, it depends on the type and the number of connections...more details would be required. Look back to find the improved F/R a couple of pages back. The standard F/R seems to work, but if the guitars HB is really powerful, a stock ruby may work and maybe there is a kit or something somewhere...check at run off groove or small bear electronics. I don't really use mail order for these things as a lot of stuff can be bought here, but it is getting rarer. At the moment I am caught up in a bunch of health and legal issues...not good ...but I live in hope for a clear spot in the road so I can get back to organizing something for the many people like yourself that would like to try this but not the materials or sometimes the experience. The idea is to build the circuit so at least people know that works and supply the wire...a lot depends on the person installing it though and I don't want to be responsible for things I can't control. Still, if I got that together I think it would help a lot. Unfortunately, there is always an issue of cost in labour with some of these things... pete (PS...I know technically Hawaii is part of the USA, but I have never gotten used to it!) aloha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripthorn Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Thanks for the reply and thoughts Pete. I guess I will just stick to a one pickup configuration (this guitar is going to be a dedicated sustainer, really, seeing as how I have several other "normal" guitars). It sounds like a regular toggle switch will work best for selecting the sustainer on/off, is that correct or is the switch for toggling between harmonic and normal mode? I guess I should state that this is a guitar that I built and thus the cavities are not like a typical strat. The control cavity is rear routed and larger than even a standard electric guitars control cavity (it was my first attempt and things the first go got a little ugly...). Finally, let me make sure that what I want to do will work in terms of controls: one volume and one tone for the bridge pickup and one volume for the sustainer and a switch to turn the sustainer either on/off or harmonic/normal. Should I try two switches or just let the sustainer on/off be controlled by the sustainer volume knob? i.e. if I want the sustainer off, just turn the volume knob all the way down. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 You should always plan to have a switch to turn it off! Otherwise the battery will go flat pretty quick. I am not sure about the switching...however... An important rule is to build the circuit and driver and test it outside of the guitar before you even worry about installation as a lot of people fail at this project so #1 you don't want to go through all the modification and find it doesn't work and #2 you may have to do whatever it takes to get the installation working. Now with a single pickup guitar it isn't so bad, but #1 still applies...let's see how you go building the driver. pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 I had some good news this morning as a long project is coming to a happy conclusion. I have been working of a collaborative effort where I did my part back in december and it is almost complete and hopefully I will be able to speak a little more about it. A beautiful custom made guitar and I designed and built the electronics for it including a new prototype "sustainer" and a new name for the device There are a number of other features to it that many here may find intriguing and perhaps emulating and the guitar is a stunner. I am hoping to convince the builder to show the guitar here, but regardless...a little further down the track I will no doubt be able to share in this "secret project". One thing is that this pushes the prototype thing a bit further and so may put the required boot in to get some of these plans for kits to my newer designs actually made available...good news for people having trouble with the electronics side of things or the supply of components...still a little ways away, but this project was an important part of the verification process of the device and I am hoping for some valuable feedback in working with a professional builder. pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePac Posted August 22, 2008 Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 (edited) Excellent thread.........didn't read it but it is favorited so I can read this thread in depth. I built my first working sustainer in late either late 1982 or early 1983 which was necessitated by my having bought a Rockman and wanting feedback. I had no idea what I was doing concerning guitar electronics but the basic principle was simple........until I read this thread and noticed how far things have come since I threw my stuff down in disgust at having the guys at Rolls Music at falls church laugh me out of the store for even proposing such a device. I seeked out patenting it and spent months at the patent office until almost the last page (yes they were individual pages stacked between what looked like book covers)...........the third to last page.......and there it was. My idea had already been patented in 1976. Still.........the search was cool as I was able to physically handle the patents on the flying V and all the other cool McCarty designs. Strange thing about the patent office............about 90% of the population searching patents there in the early 80s came in with blank pages and left with ideas. I fully expected to see people like me sweating whether someone had beat them to the punch as they searched but instead found people looking to exploit. Tom Scholz was the only person I talked to about it that felt it had legs but he was busy with Scholz R&D at the time. Paul Reed Smiths' wife was hand inlaying seaguls when I showed up to discuss it but all I could do was marvel at his sweet stash of aged wood at the time. Anyway........glad to be here and hope to get the creative spark back........maybe it is or I wouldn't have found this place. Oh.........my sustainer at that time was so inefficient that it required at least two 6L6GC tubes worth of Harmon Kardon power just to sustain to the point that the potting I used started to smoke. I was able to get around the transducer feeding back from the moster field created by 50 watts of power by using a delay pedal and sending said delayed signal (delayed only.......no mix) to the transducer that was making sizzling noises. It sucks that I ruined my Kramer focus with the non-angled banana headstock to fit that device..........apparently they are worth a lot of money now. Edited August 22, 2008 by IcePac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 Welcome IcePac Sustainer technology (for want of a better term) has been around a long time. The original Ebow patent had a built in device which are earlier than the ones we would call a sustainer...but I found a patent going way back to 1892!!!!!!!!!!! My interest has gone on a lot longer than this thread, but obviously nothing new under the sun. A lot of the present commercial systems were influenced by Micheal Brooks "infinite guitar" that he put together when the ebow he ordered took too long to turn up and he has been using it ever since. There are probably about 50 sustainer like patents out there...a lot easier to find now that it is "on line" However, there are many ways in which to cook a goose. This thread explores a range of ways to get electromagnetic feedback and to encourage others to have a go. Patents, unlike their original intention to forward technology, tends to stifle such activities in this day and age... In general the idea of a magnetic feedback loop is simple and elegant...and intriguing to watch. Getting it to work in a manner that is practical can be tricky but obviously can be done. The general design I promote comes from many experiments in different approaches but this thread is always looking for a better way to design or implement the technology. Oh.........my sustainer at that time was so inefficient that it required at least two 6L6GC tubes worth of Harmon Kardon power just to sustain to the point that the potting I used started to smoke. I was able to get around the transducer feeding back from the moster field created by 50 watts of power by using a delay pedal and sending said delayed signal (delayed only.......no mix) to the transducer that was making sizzling noises. Yes... ...if you read the very first post, you may see an account of my experiments some 20 years ago...I think I only put about 15 watts into it but the strings got too hot to touch! The "secret" to the devices I make is that the drivers are "fast" enough in response not to require complicated phase correction (as with your delay idea...I tried a flanger) and run "cool" with very low power. As patents are difficult, expensive and stop development (now being a legal tool in the main) and virtually impossible to enforce without huge amounts of capital, I have made my ideas freely available in the public domain...claiming a "prior art" on my devices would therefore be very difficult for thieves seeking to steal the ideas and stop others making them by patenting it themselves. So...the gist of my DIY sustainer design is a thin coil of 0.2mm wire wound to about 8ohms with up to a watt of power max. Along the way there have been very many variations of multiple coils and the like and various proposals for installation and powering the things. One elusive device has been the driver in the mid position for instance. But in the last year or so, primarily the thread seems to have been about encouraging and helping people make their own based no my known working design. Check out the blueteleful telecaster project and the tutorial links below to see some shorter threads and my latest incarnation of the design on one of my own guitars to get a feel for the present status quo. I never advise reading this thread...but reading it back a few pages is sometimes a good idea to get a feel for what is happening presently. Beware too, some things posted over the years were ideas even circuits that may not be correct or never proven to actually work! This "Sustainer Ideas" thread has gone on a long time and must be some kind of record...over 4000 posts!!! Yet, it continues to be of interest...I wonder if I stopped posting if it would simply fade away. Oddly enough, it was only pinned in the last year I think, so most of the thread was contributed to amongst all the others... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePac Posted August 22, 2008 Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 (edited) Thank you much..........I will research this thread. I really think many problems can be solved by "time sharing" a device that both "transmits" and "receives" in that for a certain amount of milleseconds, it is used as a pick-up and for a certain amount of milleseconds, it is used as a sustainer driver. Since any energized coil will "throw back" a bit when the field is de-energized, maybe it would be possible to use both the string exciter and the string excitee right next to each other in the same packaging rather than a single pickup/driver that does both. The time sharing could still be used but with discrete units and you reduce the potential of the spike generated by the de-energization of the driver's field being sent back to the amp............since the driver and pickup are not on the same circuit. Since most people cannot even tell the difference between a crappy MP3 sampled at a low rate compared to a CD, then it's possible the human brain either would not pick up the "gaps" in sound or would apply some sort of interpolation when faced with interrupted sound much like the way the eyes do with movies. There would be some sort of sweet spot concerning pulse width and pulse rate, most likely where a human would be hard pressed to hear any "gaps". Since I haven't done research on this since the 80s, whatever I said might already be incorporated into a product. If not, have at it. Edited August 22, 2008 by IcePac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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