Myka Guitars Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Well being a newcomer to the thread (and sustainer world) I think I might just have to make one of each type of driver (blade and pole pieces) and have something to bring back to the group. I was thinking of using something like the low flat screws like the ones you find on the TV Jones pickups in the hopes of spreading out the magnetic field a bit. ~David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Hey there.... I am very distracted with domestic issues and only look in from time to time. Nice to see there is still interest in this monster thread. I favoured the blade style to address the problem of strings being bent away from the poles causing inconsistancy in sustain. Either style will work. What you will find is that you do need to have the driver pretty close to the string. For a pole piece guitar you may wish to use more than six...say eleven or twelve like on carvin pickups....kind of a screw pole in effect! With a magnetic pickup, you will need to have this pretty close to the string also (not an issue with Myka's piezo guitar). The piezos may need a bit of high end taken off with a passive tone control (perhaps where the volume control is, between the pre and poweramp sections) in case it is just too bright. Note that this effects the signal to the driver...not the guitar's brightness. Ideally, the sustainer should make no impact on the tone of the actual guitar...just sustain it! As far as high string response, it is a traditional problem. High strings are thinner and so have less magnetic mass...less for the magnetic energy to work on...and they are at a higher tension...more difficult to move...and they are vibrating at a much higher speed...so need a fast driver! This last point is important and I believe to be the importance of the thin driver design...speed! That said...on my guitar I find that the b string has the best and most pleasing response. Getting the high e vibrating is ok but the strength is not quite as strong especially in harmonic mode. The low strings respond so easily that you really don't need to pick the string...simply fret it. This is neat for creating bass lines or sustaining tones below chords or normal high string lines. The low strings on my guitar...lower tones in general...gently morph into a tone a octave above which is really neat. This could be controled with a different (larger output cap) on the output on the LM386. Stewrec... I thought of using hot melt glue but discounted it as just too difficult and not suitable...it will set just too fast, I think a liquid is to be preferred. Beware of using more high powered amps. The LM386 is only putting out about a 1/4 watt and is restricted by the battery's voltage and strength. Too much power I think can lead to amplification more of the vibrations of the driver itself than the strings and are not really practical end solutions to actually fitting it into the guitar. Good luck to all...remember, mine works so, it works, and so can yours...play on... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custom22 Posted June 11, 2006 Report Share Posted June 11, 2006 (edited) I hope I'm not butting in on this thread, but what poles of the magnets do you attactch to the bottom of the sustainer? Edited June 11, 2006 by custom22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2006 No, no...this thread welcomes all...welcome custom 22... As long as it is all northe or south is fine....just like with a pickup. Reversing the magnet, like reversing the coils phase will create the harmonic effect, but then you just need to reverse the wires with the phase switch to get back to normal fundumental mode. Watch out for bar magnets that have their poles on either end...these are not suitable...but you can use several magnets if needed as long ass all like poles are up. Also, a stronger magnet does not increase the effect...it is the electromagnet (coil) that is doing the work. Rare earth magnets could be used but must be very, very small. A typical cheap ceramic pickup magnet is ideal and is what I use below a steel blade. In fact...on my current guitar, the driver is built on top of a pickup and uses the pickups magnet for dual duties...this has worked out really well for me and is something to consider. good luck...got to run... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custom22 Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 So if I get a couple out of a small speaker or some headphones that will work, as long as I keep constant in which side is touching the blade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 Hmmm....well, yes I suppose...not the neatest source. Perhaps you could scavenge a broken old cheap pickup from the local music store and salvage the magnet...that would be ideal. Another idea is to check out craft shops, sometimes you can find little ceramic fridge magnets...maybe three or so of those. But yes, the magnet need not be that strong (similar to a pickup's in strength) the real work is done by the coil...making the coil needs the attention. You can actually put the magnet inside the coil (if you need it really compact) but this is not easy really to find just the right size magnet. With the blade and magnet below, you can exchange different magnets or salvage the magnet for a second coil if the first isn't quite right. The coil is not difficult to wind by hand but it does take attention to make sure that all the windings are pushed into a compact size and thatit is well potted. This very important, if the windings are loose they will vibrate and create their own signals that will be picked up by the pickup of the guitar and come out the amp...not good, usually a squeel! Various people have tried or proposed various alternatives, but I have found woodworking PVA to be safe and adequate. Apply the glue before and during winding and tape up tight. The hardest thing I found was devising a bobbin to wind the coil on. The other tricky thing is working out how to fit it to the guitar. I simplified both by making the driver on top of the neck pickup. This gives me height adjustment, half the bobbin (I had to make the top), a cover to hide the thing in, and the magnet...it also lets me use the neck pickup when the sustainer is off...win, win, win... Anyway...check out some of the photos on the thread, you'll get the idea... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custom22 Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 (edited) Is there a specific type of wire that is to be used? Is regular pickup wire alright, or does it need to be thicker? Edit- nevermind, alreadly got it. Edited June 13, 2006 by custom22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyAzDeDe Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Hi! If I use 0.1 mm wire while making driver, how turn I have to turn? are there any formule to calculate this? thanks for all...Nice day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToneMonkey Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Hello there guys, what a thread this turned out to be. I occassionally pop in and have a look, but it's so big I sort of got lost. This is my first trip in for some time. Anyway, what I wanted to see (and I don't know if these are suitable for this project) but I have a fair few pole pieces that are suitable for the standard fender type pups. Just little cylindrical magnets. I'm based in the UK, so if anyone needs a couple let me know and I'll pop a couple in the post. Good luck with the project dudes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyAzDeDe Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Hi! I read all pages and i am puzzled.Could you summerize the main things in a new page? for ex: 1-do this 2- do this 3- use 0.2mm for driver..etc. thank for all.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Hi and welcome AyAzDeDe Yes, I have often wondered about this...this thread is soooo looooong. Unfortunately, I am not able to do any practical work on this at the moment but offer advice. However, I did do a sequence with lots of picks somewhere on the building of my pickup/driver on my current guitar somewhere in here, and there is a tutorial based on ideas here in another section... Sustainer Tutorial Pages So, I can't quite do what you are looking for in the near future... In a nutshell, however... Make a suitable amplifier...a LM386 with a preamplifier to avoid loading such as the Fetzer/Ruby design and wind a coil for the driver. The driver is the heart of this project. My design calls for a thin design similar to a single coil pickup but only 3mm thick. The core I used was ordinary mild steel 3mm thick from a hardware store and cut and ground to size. The wire used is insulated copper and quite a bit thicker than pickup wire at 0.2mm. You need to wind it to between 6 and 8 ohms which you measure from the start to various points after sanding through the insulation with a multimeter set to resistance. There should be somewhere between 100-200 turns and be easily wound by hand. The coil must be potted. This means that the windings must be fixed so that they can not vibrate. I used PVA woodworking glue as I wound it and taped it with PVC tape pushing the layers of windings down as I went. I made a few this way and all worked fine. There has been some discussion of alternatives but this is safe and cheap and works if done right. The centre of the coil should be mild steel and a magnet as found on a pickup of something equivilent can be stuck below it, or if you can find a magnet suitable, this could be used for the core. Organising the bobbin is a little tricky...takes a bit of arts and crafts...I have used layered paper reinforced with glue or thin plastic, others have used CD cases, etc. Most people have needed to make a few drivers, lacking the experience in winding coils. It is not hard and the wire is cheap really. Hook this up to the amplifier instead of the speaker out. Hook the input of the amplifier to the bridge pickup and hold the driver facing down above the strings near the neck to test it out. Reversing the wires will produce the harmonic effect, a phase switch can be used for this. A switching system to disconnect all but the bridge pickup for multipickup guitars and connect the power is necessary. Then, you need to find or make room for the circuit, battery, switches and driver in or on the guitar. You will need easy access to the battery. All the discussions about making a better mousetrap...ummm...driver, can be disregarded if this works for you. The idea of building the driver on top of a conventional single coil pickup as I did has a lot of merit and if the guitar is a strat or tele style really is ideal (we have not perfected a humbucking version pickup/driver yet) as this provides the bottom of the driver bobbin, the magnet, and an easy way to mount it....plus it looks cool. Probably wont want to do this to you diMaz or SD but you can often get cheapo pups from repair shops that have been replaced out or buy real cheap ones and use that. The end result will be a guitar that can provide controlled feedback, harmonic feedback and infinite sustain (plus a whole lot more) at any volume (even unplugged) and with any tone...clean or dirty. Most people seem to get a head of themselves though so my advice is to take it one step at a time before modifying the guitar. Build the amp (it can be used as a practice amp and tested with a speaker) build a driver and hear the effect...then work out how you will get it into a guitar. Good luck, hope that helps... pete Oh...and thanks ToneMonkey...that would be a good catch for would be pickup winders. Thes could be used for driver magnets but a flat ceramic magnet is probably easier to utilize for a straight forward driver design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyAzDeDe Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 thank for everything. i understand and i am going to make it tomorrow. After finishing i will write here.thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave293 Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Hey, I finished wiring up my amp for the pickup, but i'm having problems finding wire for the driver coil in austraila. psw where do you get yours from? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spazzyone Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 90 pages of post's why is the sustainer not as popular as the floyd rose or the double truss rod as far as a must have product for guitars? am i missing something? and does this hold the site record for most post's on one topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Hi there...renewed interest lately... Hey, I finished wiring up my amp for the pickup, but i'm having problems finding wire for the driver coil in austraila. psw where do you get yours from? I don't know why people are having trouble elsewhere, but most electronics places have it...I know my local Dic Smith carry it, even in the local shopping centre store and Jaycar would too. Sometimes known as Magnet Wire, but down here just insulated copper wire, choke or inductor wire, or cross over wire as that is what it is most used for. A small roll of 0.2mm wire costs less than A$7, as I recall, and will make at least two drivers. 90 pages of post's 49,000 visits!!! and does this hold the site record for most post's Yes!!! why is the sustainer not as popular as the floyd rose Well, Floyd had his own that failed in the market place, even with EVH endorsing it. Perhaps it is the need for batteries, never popular in guitars...or the need for modifications. Afterall, why aren't there more guitars with active electronics, it's increasingly popular with bass players. The only manufactuer to really embrace it is Fernandes...not the most popular brand. It isn't an easy retro fit...it's not as simple as fitting a new pickup. But...this makes it a good candidate for project guitars and DIY guys who don't mind getting into the guitar and doing the mods required...or building a purpose built instrument. Maybe with Vai taking it on, it may make some impact...but it is looked upon as a gimick. Really the key is for someone to take this device, become really good at it and create some music that really needs it. This thread encourages people to do just that... good luck...and remember, like this thread...sustain should last a long, looong time... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave293 Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Hey, I finished wiring up my amp for the pickup, but i'm having problems finding wire for the driver coil in austraila. psw where do you get yours from? I don't know why people are having trouble elsewhere, but most electronics places have it...I know my local Dic Smith carry it, even in the local shopping centre store and Jaycar would too. Sometimes known as Magnet Wire, but down here just insulated copper wire, choke or inductor wire, or cross over wire as that is what it is most used for. A small roll of 0.2mm wire costs less than A$7, as I recall, and will make at least two drivers. Thanks i've be searching for magnet wire and getting no results. Is this the right stuff? thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Yep Dave...that will do I have used both 0.2 and 0.25 with good results. Although the real is fairly small there is 58 metres of it on there...plenty!! The wire is coated in a clear enamel, sand off the end and attach a lead wire, start winding (glue potting as you go and pushing in the windings at the sides where loose) and after about 100 turns sand the wire a little and measure from the lead wire to that point with a multimeter. The glue will re-insulate it so you can keep winding. The resistance will rise quicker as the turns increase so you may need to make a few readings towards the end. You should get a reading between 6 and 8 ohms, once you have reached that, cut the wire and sand and solder on the second lead, puch it all in and add some electricians tape cut to the depth of the coil tightly around it to hold it all in place. It does not take long by hand to do so you cantake your time. You may find that the first coil is not up to you specs (a bit too loose or something) and need to try again...I was able to make about three of this design without any failures though, so it may work first go! Good luck... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custom22 Posted June 18, 2006 Report Share Posted June 18, 2006 Suppose I am doing a guitar with two humbuckers, and the driver in the middle. Normally does one attatch the output of the bridge pickup to the input of the sustainer's amplifier? Am I correct in saying this? If so Could I attach the outputs of each pickupto the input of the sustainer amp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 Okay, I tried reading as much of the thread as possible. I've recently become interested in retrofitting my Epi Les Paul with one of these. Here is my idea: I want to build the driver that saddles on top of the neck pickup and uses the magnetic field of the pickup rather than having its own magnet. I am thinking of making the driver out of a standard strat bobbin cut down, and using short magnets on the outside positions to wrap the coil around. Then, I want to lower the neck pickup enough so that the driver fits between it and the strings, and actually use the pole piece screws to secure the driver to the neck pickup. I don't mind the volume loss I will get by lowering the neck pickup, because I mainly have the neck pickup's volume almost at zero so I can switch to it for a cleaner sound while my distortion is still on. Are there any obvious flaws in this design, apart from the loss of neck pickup volume? I also plan on mounting the controls for the sustainer on the pickguard (using mini-pots and a small DPDT switch to switch from fundamental to harmonic mode). On a side note, does anyone think it would be possible to insert a tone control of sorts into the driver amp to adjust the frequency of the feedback? It would probably need to be something along the lines of a wah circuit, and ideally you would get the effect of the type of feedback you can get while using a wah pedal. If its possible, I would see it as a way to control which harmonics are brought out in harmonic mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 OK...a few questions here and not necessary encouraging answers... You may have found parts of this thread discussing such matters...but it is a big thread...and not a lot of practical experimentation. That means that attempting these things is largely an experiment with unlikely positive results to some degree. That said, here is an encouraging picture however... It is an implementation of my "sustain box" on my LP to test out these ideas. Unfortunately my life turned for the worst soon after and experimentation ceased. There are some clips in the sound page of it, though not too good. It worked, but needed more work, if you get my meaning. Here it is off the guitar showing the driver, the bobbin of which is made of paper, note how thin it is... So...to these questions.... custom22Suppose I am doing a guitar with two humbuckers, and the driver in the middle. The problem with this is that the driver will simply be too close to the bridge pickup to avoid uncontrolled oscillating feedback. You will need a good driver as it is because the HB bridge pickup is larger than say on a strat and is thus closer...especially on a 24 fret guitar. Dizzy was able to make a sustainer in the centre position of a strat of a different design and use both or either pickup to drive it to great effect. It was far more sophisticated with secret phase compensation circuitry and a bilateral (think reversed humbucker) design. Sustainiac also has a patent for such a device but never put it into production, so perhaps they had problems. I very much doubt that it would work with the proposed configuration here. My hex driver design, may have worked as I was able to run it quite close even on a strat. This was a very sophisticated and miniturised design but my ambitions ran away with me I feel. I was hoping to be able to run it from the bridge and independantly of the guitars electronics...but alas, great plans, etc... PrimalThen, I want to lower the neck pickup enough so that the driver fits between it and the strings, and actually use the pole piece screws to secure the driver to the neck pickup. If you study the above photo that is pretty much what I did, and screwing it on would be the next logical step. What I proposed for a HB would be to screw on the driver and have a dummy 3mm magnetic pole extention for the other coil. On my real LP there though there was barely enough screw adjustment to lower the pickup 3mm (the pickups have long legs and springs though, I think there would have been enough room with longer screw). So in testing, I effectively lost the use of the neck pickup it was lowered so far down, and the tone really suffered. On the otherhand, the device did work as you can hear. I am not sure that you will be able to fit the switches and such as described but the control cavity should have enough room for everything and be easily accessable. I would not have a sensitivity (volume) control if I were to do it again, but a tone control would be interesting as you describe...but that would mean another circuit and more space required as well as power...hmmm. I would probably be worth emulating what I did by adding to a humbucker than to do the strat bobbin mod, etc. As always, with experimenting, I would test before modifying anything or getting too caught up in your ideas. The idea of the "sustain box" was to make testing easier, it was never intended as a replacement for an installed sustainer and does not work as well. An interesting thing is that a guitar like my LP has amazing natural sustain as it is and I have found a brighter less sustained guitar like my hollowed out strat to be more rewarding. Another thing to consider is the tremolo feature of the strat. There are a lot of things you can do with the combination of really long notes and a tremolo. For those just looking in who haven't seen it, here is my strat with the driver/pickup in the neck position... As for the switching, the wiring is complex and I have not been able to find suitable really miniture switches without going into digital electronic switching which has also been discussed. I use mini toggles which are neat, easy to use and don't look out of place...but below the on/off switch is a chunky 4pdt with a lot of wires attached...so, I doubt there would be anyway of installing this kind of thing in a little LP scratch plate I'm afraid. Anyway...keep your thinking hats on... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blasteuteuf Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 (edited) Hi guys! First post! This post is too long and i was so tired to read it entirely.....and i've some questions: -psw: for the samples u posted ...did you use this schematic ? If you did it ,how did you do the harmonic/normal mode ? Caus' i don't see any switch on this picture.... Thanx you in advance..best regards. Edited June 21, 2006 by blasteuteuf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 PSW didn't use the Fetzer-Ruby amp. However, fundamental/harmonic mode is very simple. Just take a switch (DPDT I believe) and use it to switch the direction of the current through the driver coil. In one direction it will be fundamental mode, in the other it will be harmonic mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Hi blasteuteuf...welcome to the DIY sustainer thread This is the harmonic switch...simply a phase switch that reverses the wires going to the driver. The harmonic effect can also be achieved by reversing the wires to the input or turning the magnet over... Since I have it here...this is the on/off bypass switch for the device... I found that I had to lift both ends of the unused pickup coils on my strat with the pickup/driver, not just short them out...it eliminate feedback noise. The amp I use is very much like this but with a different preamp stage with a lot more gain there. The idea of the preamp though is largely to avoid loading on the pickups effecting the tone of the guitar. Otherwise I use a simple LM386 amp similar to this which does most of the work anyway. I am convinced that the secret to successfully getting this to work is not in the circuitry, but in the driver design and how well you make it (potting, etc), and how it is implemented. Hope that helps...(thanks primal) pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blasteuteuf Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Thanks for your answers ....Be careful when your measuring input impedance of coils....it's not only the resistor but inductance too. However for those little coils-driver impedance=R (imo). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 it's not only the resistor but inductance too. However for those little coils-driver impedance=R (imo). True...but it's hard to measure and alters with frequency I believe. If wound well the coil will be a bit smaller than a single coil pickup on a 3mm core so...make the core a little wider than the string spread and wind up to 8 ohms resistance. My strats is really about 7 ohms but I have made one with exactly R=8 that works fine. What you don't want to do is to do it by eye...wind till it looks "neat" (ie like a pickup) cause it will be too high, loose efficiency and alter the resonance of the coil. Similarly, the "thin driver" design is important 3-4mm may seem odd but it works, the same number of turns over a 10mm bobbin like a single coil's wont. pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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