psw Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 hola zfrittz6 el google hace una mala traducción... pero pienso que entiendo... ¿Usted tiene una bobina fina, sí? ¿es la cubierta lata, o lata de Pepsi del aluminio? Sepamos usted va con el conductor de dos bobinas Más cuadros de su conductor y de su guitarra si es posible... Las felicitaciones en su éxito, espero que poder oír lo alguna vez y ése usted gozar de él mucho... todos mis recuerdos... Pete Melbourne, Australia ------------ hi zfrittz6 google makes a bad translation...but I think I understand... You have a thin coil, yes? is the cover tin, or aluminium pepsi can? Let us know how you go with the two coil driver More pictures of your driver and your guitar if possible... Congratulations on your success, I hope we can hear it sometime and that you enjoy it very much... all my best wishes... pete melbourne, australia ------ translator...babelfish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Does anyone know what a BTL amplifier is?...i have plans... Also, how would I execute the phase reversal on the signal without reversing the pickup...in real, not theoretical terms... I have been playing the guitar tonight and for some reason it has decided that it doesn't mind running clean (still a slight background graininess to it) and the response on all strings has been great and fairly even. I really got to get me a house, I have two complete strats (a left and right match) that needs this device and are far better guitars than this old banger to play... I think zfrittz6 may be on to something with the 2 watt amp thing...I wonder what he is using and if the battery is lasting ok...forgot to ask...more headroom, more power mwhaaahahhhaahhaaa goodnight... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spazzyone Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 (edited) Shawn...the harmonic switch is simply a phase switch as found on guitars. It uses a DPDT switch (very common in those stomp box footswitches) and would be wired on the driver leads like so... Pete I understand the phase reversal but it has no effect. im positive Col is correct in that its because of the amp/circutry in this system as it only works the way i have it wired. reversing phase changes nothing and i have tried every combination of wiring its a bit odd though that placing a speaker in place of the rail and reversing phase pulls on the speaker cone instead of pushing like normal but you guys understand phase cancelation and all that stuff way more than i but im understanding more day by day just reading the post's and white with chrome will be orderd today as it matches your current setup now as to the voltage reading im getting could the meter be placing the decimal point in the wrong spot making it 0.42 when it should be 4.20 or 4.02?. its an autoranging meter and a fluke none the less so im pretty sure its correct Edited October 12, 2006 by spazzyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebenezer shred Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 am i just crazy or does col's fetzer/ruby circuit have no controls? don't you need them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Now that is interesting shawn (and thanks...I can wait for quite some time before I can do anything with it )...phase reversal doesn't do it...hmmm And, col is using a dual driver and has not tried phase reversal yet either...uh oh.... I wonder...does having two coils and two polarities under all the strings make phase reversal of two coils, already out of phase with eachother...the same no matter the phase of the drive signal...holy cow, batman....ekkk!!! Again with the important information...or it may be nothing.... Now, I wonder if the harmonic effect could be created in another way... What happens if you cut the bass and boost the treble in your driving amp? By changing the output cap in my circuit I got better high string response (the high e sustains throughout it's length) but the lower notes (to about c on the g string) sound an octave above (kind of...). That article about Micheal brook mention equalization to achieve effects.... Maybe the phase reversal trick won't work quite as mine does with a true Humbucking pickup. A bi-lateral is much more like a single coil, yet interestingly, Dizzy's mid driver did not feature a harmonic function (he never explained why, maybe he wasn't aware, but I doubt it...it is in the patents). People...time to put the thinking hats on for this one...very odd...thanks shawn, will sleep on it...will soon be midnight and it's still hot...must....s l e e p....mus t.... p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 (edited) Does anyone know what a BTL amplifier is?...i have plans... I do now Its a configuration at the output where two single ended amps are set up so that one drives the positive part of the signal and the other drives the negative part. Commonly used is the output stage of a class d amp looky here Also, how would I execute the phase reversal on the signal without reversing the pickup...in real, not theoretical terms... there are a number of circuits snippets I've found that are similar, but none are quite perfect... I have cobbled together my own hacked version, but it may only work in my circuit - I can't vouch for its suitability in any other circuit... if you google something like switchable inverting non-inverting op-amp you will find what I found... btw, I did double check the wiring of that damn circuit - just missed the problem. Only a tiny bit of the pin shows on the other side of the board, so I missed it while checking for bad soldering, bridged tracks etc. I'm interested in why you are looking at BTL amplifiers? I've been thinking about possibly ditching the LM386 in favour of either a pair of transistors, or a current booster - Just don't need that whopping great 1.5Watts . Also been looking at the posibility of setting up the circuit so the battery gives +4.5 and -4.5 to remove the need for the false ground.. its possible, but not compatible with the LM386... wouldn't it be good if the whole thing including AGC was 2 dual op-amps, 2 transistors and and an LED LDR config of some sort... not sure if its possible - might need some sort or voltage regulator chip to make it work... depends if there are op-amps that can provide enough current without melting. cheers Col Edited October 12, 2006 by col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 (edited) wouldn't it be good... Now that's the kind of thinking I like to hear... have a look at the last post on the last page....phase reversal of a rail the same effect as on a single coil driver...? I wouldn't mind a bit more power...a simpler circuit...smaller...less batery consumption, maybe....hmmmm For one thing...with that kind of power you'd definitely require no gain in the preamp stage, just a buffer...interested... I may even have a cheap source...if only I had a soldering iron right now... pete PS...we couldn't just use two buffers...one for normal, then send the signal to a second one in inverted mode, maybe a little more gain/filtering for the harmonic mode...or something lkie that? Edited October 12, 2006 by psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 am i just crazy or does col's fetzer/ruby circuit have no controls? don't you need them? Not my circuit Bancikas im positive Col is correct in that its because of the amp/circutry in this system ... I think I suggested that it might be a combination of the circuitry and the high impedence driver. Now that is interesting shawn (and thanks...I can wait for quite some time before I can do anything with it )...phase reversal doesn't do it...hmmm And, col is using a dual driver and has not tried phase reversal yet either...uh oh.... I wonder...does having two coils and two polarities under all the strings make phase reversal of two coils, already out of phase with eachother...the same no matter the phase of the drive signal...holy cow, batman....ekkk!!! Don't panic (Mr Manwaring) Don't panic Don't panic... I actualy did say that the phase/harmonic mode trick does work for me - maybe I didn't re-state it for the dual driver... anyway it does work (even if I don't really like that mode ) Now, I wonder if the harmonic effect could be created in another way... I don't think you could get the _same_ harmonic affect with a different technique, but I'm sure there will be other harmonic variations to try out. All though for sheer simplicity, the phase reversal wins hands down cheers Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spazzyone Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 (edited) tried something dumb today as a test ( i know here he goes again ) i tried the rail guitar this time using a sony 100 watt amp and i got no responce what so ever. from low volume to full volume and nothing no damage to anything ( luckily) all equipment still works) but why no sustain/harmonics? i tried all the inputs on the amp including the phono input that im assuming has a preamp stage yet this crappy little P.A works great at a 1/4 of the volume am i missing something? the sony is only 8ohms but the rail works on the P.A at 8ohms any clues? i only tried this test to see if there was any phase reversal effect. Edited October 12, 2006 by spazzyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 tried something dumb today as a test ( i know here he goes again ) i tried the rail guitar this time using a sony 100 watt amp and i got no responce what so ever. from low volume to full volume and nothing no damage to anything ( luckily) all equipment still works) but why no sustain/harmonics? i tried all the inputs on the amp including the phono input that im assuming has a preamp stage yet this crappy little P.A works great at a 1/4 of the volume am i missing something? the sony is only 8ohms but the rail works on the P.A at 8ohms any clues? i only tried this test to see if there was any phase reversal effect. Maybe sony have some protection circuitry in their kit, and your nice sony amp has decided not to join in with your crazy schemes ? who knows... col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bancika Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 am i just crazy or does col's fetzer/ruby circuit have no controls? don't you need them? if you're reffering to my layout, it has three trimmers, one for jfet bias, one for volume and one for gain... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 am i just crazy or does col's fetzer/ruby circuit have no controls? don't you need them? Good stuff, bancika I drew layout for Fetzer/Ruby on 13x7 perfboard. I don't have necessary components at the moment so I can't veryfy it now, but should be fine. It uses in-line trimmers, but can be easily adapted for other types People want to go over this and check it out??? VR2 could be replaced with a standard pot to make the sensitivity control, as I have on my guitar... The on/off/bypass switch comes before this circuit and is set up for your guitar...number of pickups, etc The harmonic switch comes after this circuit on the driver leads. You could have a phase switch on the bridge pickup that will produce the same effect and act as a phase switch when not in sustain mode and the pickup is combined with others but that may get a little confusing...we are looking into another way of reversing the signal The need for a sensitivity control is debatable. It takes up room and I rarely if ever use it, below 7 there is very little if any sustain effect on my guitar and a lot of the response is controlable with technique. Having trim pots for the LM386 gain (VR3) and the input gain (VR2) is a good idea for tweeking the circuit to your guitar and playing style and saves dedicating a pot for this function. Switching can get complicated on multipickup guitars, but as things develop it may get easier. With col's AGC circuit, I could see a potential for a different type of sensitvity control that adjusts the threshold of the limiting so as it ranges from a more refined controlled, ebow like sustain to a more traditional feedback effect...another cool thing about it!!! Eventually I'd like to see some kind of electronic switching so that the device and the harmonic function could be triggered by tiny push buttons on the fly, possibly surface mounted or on the driver itself as in this version of one of the hex designs... on this model their are two LED's and a switch to trigger the sustainer...unfortunately, a SPDT didn't work out for this function but you can see how small these things are... I actualy did say that the phase/harmonic mode trick does work for me - maybe I didn't re-state it for the dual driver... anyway it does work (even if I don't really like that mode ) That's a relief...I see now that it would/should work...so shawn's problem is still a mystery... The harmonic mode is an acquired taste...very easy to overdo it! Great if you want to do those harmonic Metal trem drops and horse impressions and it does extend the range and tone of the guitar but it can become too much of an "effect"...still nice to be able to do it! There are some subtle uses of it, having the sustainer on minimum and in harmonic mode, the note will still decay (so not infinite sustain) but trail off as a harmonic...a nice touch to those blues riffs, especially with a clean sound... Does anyone know what a BTL amplifier is?...i have plans... So it isn't an amp with bacon, tomato and lettuce then ... So, in a BTL amp, would the driver be isolated from the common earth and be of some additional benifit to us do you think in that regard? Meanwhile...still thinking about driver construction techniques and designs...how about a bi-lateral driver on top of a rail pickup??? ...pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebenezer shred Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 if you don't have controls does that mean it's automatically set to like 10 if it did have the controls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 (edited) Is the SSM2018 available in a DIP package? Yep, DIP 18. With the right setup the LM13700 can provide plenty gain.... no guarantees, but I think it can be made to work. Problem is that huge input resistor - I'm guessing that is there to stop the divider pot on the input from pulling the dc levels of the previous stage out of whack. I guess its about what the stage is... it's output impedence ? Not quite sure what you mean. I was referring to adding a bit of gain at the buffer so that the LM13700 sees enough signal so that it starts working (ie, there's enough signal to get over the threshold of the AGC). Plus, the LM13700 app note actually says you'll get better S/N and distortion performance if the input signal is as big as practicable. I have a question about bypass caps - one good source says to bypass both the negative and positive supply to ground. Should I bypass +v and -ve supply pins to vcc/2 ? (maybe a silly question) or just the +ve to ground and vcc/2 to ground... Nat Semiconductor Audio Handbook says bypass +ve and -ve to ground, which in our case would mean bypassing +ve and -ve to Vcc/2. I've also seen bypassing straight across +ve and -ve too - saves you one capacitor. if the second option, where is best to put the cap? Like that earlier quote said - as close to the opamp as possible. yes ac voltage is the first setting on my meter and i stuck the pos probe in the 16ohm jack and the neg probe in the common jack for that reading and for current i removed the driver lead going to the 16 ohm output and placed the neg probe in the jack. with the neg driver going to the common jack then the pos probe to the pos driver lead. and on my meter the neg is connected to the 10 A connection and the meter is set to amps and its an auto ranging meter so im reading what it shows does this sound correct? It's possible your meter is no good at measuring AC signals at anything over 50/60 Hz. The meter spec sheet will tell you what the frequency respose of the AC metering function will be... ...or...you didn't say what the current reading was in, just 0.11. Was it mA? uA? If it was 0.11mA, that could be pretty close (0.45V / 0.11mA = 4.1K ohms). Cheers, Curtis. Edited October 13, 2006 by curtisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 So, in a BTL amp, would the driver be isolated from the common earth and be of some additional benifit to us do you think in that regard? ...pete Bridged operation is a simple way to get more watts into a load, usually double the power. If you're going to stick with the LM386 as a driving source you'll need to add a second one to do it, or swap the LM386's out for one of those stereo chips. Unfortunately doubling the output power using the same amp topologies in the LM386 also results an a doubling of the power requirements - your battery will drain twice as fast! The load might not be referenced to earth, but you're still pushing twice as much power through it. Still, it might be interesting to see if the unearthed load used in bridged amp topologies has any impact on the amout of garbage injected into the guitar's earth. If it does, we could still make it work by running the amp in bridged mode but limiting the amount of power that it can put into the driver, thus maximising battery longevity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Bridged operation is a simple way to get more watts into a load, usually double the power. If you're going to stick with the LM386 as a driving source you'll need to add a second one to do it, or swap the LM386's out for one of those stereo chips. Unfortunately doubling the output power using the same amp topologies in the LM386 also results an a doubling of the power requirements - your battery will drain twice as fast! The load might not be referenced to earth, but you're still pushing twice as much power through it. Still, it might be interesting to see if the unearthed load used in bridged amp topologies has any impact on the amout of garbage injected into the guitar's earth. If it does, we could still make it work by running the amp in bridged mode but limiting the amount of power that it can put into the driver, thus maximising battery longevity. OK...actually, I was thinking of replacing the LM386 for something a bit newer some of these things run on a much lower voltage with more power (rechargable pencil batteries anyone) and have "pop" suppression built in and very low external component count... I have always thought that it could be possible to design the circuit and batteries into some kind of trem cover for a strat to avoid excessive modifications...sure you'd have a half inch lump on the back of the guitar, but what price infinite sustain... While things like the fetzer/ruby are a basic starter and will work, I'd like eventually for us to have a standard circuit that's a little more updated...exploring some neat ideas, again! pete if you don't have controls does that mean it's automatically set to like 10 if it did have the controls? Kind of, it is always set to whatever you set it to to suit your guitar and playing style...in my case 10 !!! You can always tweek vr2 and 3 to suit...or replace vr2 with a pot on the fromt of the guitar if you want more control. Picking strength and damping of strings makes a big influence on the way this thing responds. You do need to develop a "sustainer technique", light picking and creative string damping yeilds the best results...very much like playing very loud... p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 OK...actually, I was thinking of replacing the LM386 for something a bit newer some of these things run on a much lower voltage with more power (rechargable pencil batteries anyone) and have "pop" suppression built in and very low external component count... I have always thought that it could be possible to design the circuit and batteries into some kind of trem cover for a strat to avoid excessive modifications...sure you'd have a half inch lump on the back of the guitar, but what price infinite sustain... Of course, if we're considering external power sources as an option (phantom powering etc) then bridged amping is still do-able, or indeed any other non-battery-friendly system. BTW, just in case I'm not getting the full story and missing large swags of conversation, bridged amping is not the same as class D. Oh, and this is the easiest way I can think of to flip the phase of the driver signal without swapping the driver wires: All the extra circuitry is left out for clarity. The same DPDT switch, but all you're doing is swapping the inverting and non-inverting inputs of the LM386 (pins 2 and 3). Cheers, Curtis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Excellent...another reason to keep the thing modular...this switching could be incorporated easily into a push pull for the harmonic to if you wanted before the amp, of course... What I am considering is an amp near the driver (trem cavity, under/beside pickup, incorporated into a driver...) with power and signal from a small preamp, AGC or whatever else you might want (buffers, etc) in the main control cavity. This way the driver leads would be short and all the circuitry easier to fit inside a guitar. By keeping the switching on the signal you remove the need to have these volitile driver leads anywhere near the controls. I had wondered if you could have two buffers. One to prevent loading and to feed the amp, the other switched in to it's inverted input...it would probably still require a DPDT switch I guess. A SPDT would allow for momentary control though, which would be kind of neat... always thinking... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 I had wondered if you could have two buffers. One to prevent loading and to feed the amp, the other switched in to it's inverted input...it would probably still require a DPDT switch I guess. A SPDT would allow for momentary control though, which would be kind of neat... always thinking... pete Hehe, check this out Also from the Nat Semi Audio Handbook (what a brilliant publication!), SPDT switch, no extra gain and phase inversion. With the switch in the "up" position there is no phase inversion, with the switch in the "down" position there is phase inversion. The input impedance is 100K/2, so you might have to increase the resistors to prevent loading of guitar pickups (or feed the input from another high impedance buffer), but make sure you keep all resistor values equal. Cheers, Curtis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Even better...if it works... With such a scheme you could add harmonics/fundumental to a sustained note on the fly with a tiny momentary switch as well as a latching toggle...so cool! The whole buffer board could be made tiny with the switch on it just like those little guitarfetish preamps or something with the amp module mounted somewhere nearer the driver keeping those pesky driver leads and amp circuit well away from the controls and such. This type of thing would also provide better options for switching because you wouldn't have to have the driver leads going backwards and forwards to the phase switch. All moving the project on to the next level I feel...I think some real progress is being made lately... Now if only I could get the driver construction down we'd be cooking with gas... pete BTW...people should check out spazzyones latest sound clips...it is obvious from this that it is working...I don't know how or why, and I don't know if it is ultimately the way I would want to do it (a lot of outboard gear and all...and that magic sony PA) but the results are certainly noteworthy. It ceratinly gives me more faith in the rail design's driving capabilities... p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Even better...if it works... Certainly does. Was using it myself a couple of days ago during my tests, works well Cheers, Curtis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 (edited) With the right setup the LM13700 can provide plenty gain.... no guarantees, but I think it can be made to work. Problem is that huge input resistor - I'm guessing that is there to stop the divider pot on the input from pulling the dc levels of the previous stage out of whack. I guess its about what the stage is... it's output impedence ? Not quite sure what you mean. I was referring to adding a bit of gain at the buffer so that the LM13700 sees enough signal so that it starts working (ie, there's enough signal to get over the threshold of the AGC). Plus, the LM13700 app note actually says you'll get better S/N and distortion performance if the input signal is as big as practicable. sorry for being vague. In the LM13700 AGC app note, there is a 250k resistor in series with the input. If you reduce this - say down to 10k, Then the internal gain of the first AGC stage is enough to get a useful effect. Unfortunately, using a smaller resistor in series with the input seem to pull the dc levels of the preceding stage out of whack (depending on what that stage is). My (probably naive) assumption that if the output impedence of the preceding stage is low (? guessing) enough, then it would still work ok. e.g. when i use the smaller 10k resistor feed it directly from a unity gain input(from the guitar) buffer, it doesn't work. however when I stick my switchable inverter/non-inverter between the two, it seems to work ok. Hehe, check this out Also from the Nat Semi Audio Handbook (what a brilliant publication!), SPDT switch, no extra gain and phase inversion. With the switch in the "up" position there is no phase inversion, with the switch in the "down" position there is phase inversion. The input impedance is 100K/2, so you might have to increase the resistors to prevent loading of guitar pickups (or feed the input from another high impedance buffer), but make sure you keep all resistor values equal. Thats very similar to what I'm using in my latest development (my switchable inverting/non-inverting buffer). I have found a few variations on that circuit, and am using a custom version, but will see if that configuration works as well (it uses fewer resistors). The problem I was having with the circuits I'd found was at switch on - if the was switch open at power up, there was no reference to ground, and the dc levels were totally screwed up - I stuck a resistor to ground in and got it running, but that Nat Semi version looks simpler. EDIT: it's not the same - the one I've cobbled together works with a SPST rather than a SPDT probably no big deal except the fancy pot I found has a 'push to make' SPST.... here's my circuit snippet - as usual no guarantees that this will work for you... I had a look at the SSM2018, looks useful although its a shame its not any smaller than an LM13700. have a look at this article on single supply op-amp design. At the end there is discussion of a configuration for 'phantom ground'. using an op amp to create a +4.5 -4.5 from a 9v might be good for us if we can find an op-amp that will cope with the current requirements... The other thing in that paper I was looking it with most interest is using zener diodes to provide more stability and better PSRR. What do you think about this? Would it be possible to use one zener diode to probide the ground reference for the whole system, or would it have to be one per device? cheers Col Edited October 13, 2006 by col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bancika Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Hey, is it possible to build a driver with magnet rods from old single coil pickup. I've got one and it would be nice it I could just remove old coil and wind new one. Tnx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Yes bancika... The blade is more to provide better drive while bending strings, but it will still work ok... Primal made his driver on the bobbin of a humbucker pickup...using my blocking up advice... The above is the pic of what to do... block up all but about 3mm, maybe 4 to allow for the wider core...you could use cardboard or wood...whatever... wind the driver coil into the top part... In this picture I have a magnet on the bottom, but with magnetic poles, just ignore that! It is a good way to make a driver because of the ability to easily mount it into the guitar. The down side is the separate poles and they are a little wider than I'd like according to my thin core ideas...still, works fine! Good luck, and use plenty of glue as you wind...see my pictorial to see how it is done... PSW driver making pictorial good luck... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 (edited) In order to prove that I'm not just spouting a lot of hot air, I made a demo Unfortunately, It's not great, I was going to do something non musical that was like a raw demonstration of my setup. Two things prevented this: #1 My recording hardware is not great - my homemade (ROG) amp sim doesn't play fair with my soundcard, so theres some clipping and distortion on louder notes. #2 while doing some recording, I discovered that I still might have problems with parasitic oscillation. I tried putting my Thunderchief into the chain after the guitar, and it goes all squashy and loses gain and volume as the sustainer kicks in then settles again after a second or two - the way this manifests itself suggests to me that the thunderchief is being overloaded by some ultrasonic feedback (some is just about audible). My earlier circuit didn't have this problem, so I figure more work needs doing on the current and future designs... So, all I did for this demo was noodle for a while and overdub a couple of the less terrible takes Go here to check it out cheers Col Edited October 13, 2006 by col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts