mrjstudios Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 Very cool side driver idea. I think I'll build one. Uh, first of all, could you post some pics?! I just want to get a feel for the materials you used. I do like the idea of having 3 cores for magnetic purposes especially. Also, where do you put the magnets exactly? I think I'll do mine with some rare earth magnets too (I have a broken old hard drive that I really want to tear apart, he he he...), some .2mm wire, and I'll wind either core to 4ohms and hook 'em in series. I still want to get my dual coil driver working though, so I'll use the new circut when it is ready for both of these projects. -MRJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted July 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 Well...I'd hold off till I have tested this a bit more and perhaps the circuitry is finalised. Neodyminium (or "Rare Earth Magnets") are facinating, a lot of power in a tiny space. But, like all magnets, the South is attracted to North and visa versa and so the field is small and tightly focused, not always a good thing. There isn't a magic mojo to these things...rare earth is not "better". For instance, I could only find 12 of these things (I bought a hundred but most ended up in hex designs) so I arranged them in rows of six directly opposite one another 10mm apart in line with the strings. Now, because of this space, the magnetic flux is drawn sideways from one magnet to another across the blades (through the core) so a lot of magnetic strength will never reach the strings. Had I suitable ceramic magnets that ran the whole length of the blade, non of this would occur and the flux would be forced to travel up and over more, intersecting the strings. However, these things are very strong so plenty is going through the blades and jumping the gap...it remains to be seen how much of the electromotive forces (created by the coils) also travel through the core, or jump the blades and excite the strings. This also demonstrates the limits of modeling. A side view of this three blade design shows no sideways flux at all, it is completely contained except to the top and bottom where it can work on the strings. My asymetrical blade idea seems to indicate a more upwardly directed shape of the field...less metal on the coils may also reduce eddy currents. The device is also very compact, not only are the coils "thin" (2mm each) but the device is slim (6mm wide), so concentrating the energy in a much smaller space. There is a lot of magnetic energy in there (probably twice a normal pickup, but it is balanced between the blades and largely attracted to itself internally. Hopefully these "saw blade" blades will be so saturated by this energy that any extra produced by the coils will be emmited towards the strings (at least primarily). Well...that's the hope! Some may be wondering about the pursuit of all these novel driver designs...a lot of it is curiosity and an urge to make an efficient driver in a practical format with as little distorting EMI as possible. The single coil driver works perfectly well, the dual rail driver works well too, but needs to be set fairly close to the strings. This design is kind of intriguing...it has some interesting features but the side coils force the cores down further from the strings and act obliquely...perhaps this will be inefficient. A bi-lateral design is also interesting (like sustainiac uses) but has it's own problems. Taking it two steps further is a hex design with individual drivers for each string...but now we are making it very dificult for too little reward. If the side driver works out ok, and people could get such small magnets (I am not sure that disc drive magnets will be suitable) the sidewinder driver is not too hard to make and could have interesting installation potentials....for instance you don't need to replace a pickup or modify it to fit something this compact onto a guitar. Anyway...it looks cool...I really should make jewelrey or something with these skills...maybe people could be wearing drivers on chains around their necks! I'll get some pics up when I can, have taken a few in construction...the epoxy has set on top so the coils are as solid as a rock. The coils are very closely packed and were given a little pressure to make them keep their shape, but nothing like the squeezing that the dual rail required. The blades and magnets form a bobbin and so are fairly easy to make with no extra "filler" in there that isn't functional to the design. With a quarter of the windings that the dual rail design required, it was a lot easier and quicker to wind. There is a similar amount of windings as a typical single coil and I am hoping that the specifications being similar to my successful single coil design will carry over to this one in terms of driver speed, frequency response and power. Col's dual rail driver has two coils of 4 ohms in series and works in that design and perhaps this is preferable...hard to tell. Better get going...cheers... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onelastgoodbye Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Pete, I don't know about the side driver... I built one some time ago using my core-less coils ( these coils ); much to the same specs of yours. 3 blades, neo mags, 6 mm wide. While it did work and EMI was lower than those same coils in regular humbucking configuration; the efficiency was significantly lower as well. So you had to turn the power up, which resulted in increased EMI. catch22... Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarmonky55 Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 So i dusted off some of my magnet wire and wound up a driver and such this morning since ive been toying with the idea of buying a fernandes for my ibanez s. I quickly wired up a (roughly) little gem circuit with parts i scrounged from various places and i have a really awesome sounding sustainer! I made the driver from magnet wire that i bought at a closing radio shack last year(30 awg), an alnico magnet from an old epiphone pickup and some cd cases. the core is a really thin piece of aluminum roof flashing. I think i may have just gotten lucky with the right combo of found parts, because this thing works really well! thanks to everyone who has spent so much time figuring this stuff out. its awesome! now im off to go permanent mount it in my guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted July 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 (edited) Hi Tim... Yes, I thought you may have made something similar and am aware of the reported poor results...I suspect mine is very similar to yours... One of the faults it that the magnetic attraction with these little mags is to a large extent to the side of the coils...not pointing at the strings...unfortunately I can't find magnets small enough to fit the design to correct this... It is a very cool design but ultimately it is a catch 22...limiting EMI does limit power umless it is very directed...that is the enigma of the whole thing really. I guess I just wanted to try it for myself... Haven't tested the thing yet...am doing a little work on the circuitry ideas. I am looking at developing a small neck driver to fit in between the neck and the neck pickup and be surface mountable...very similar to the HEX type ideas...what goes around, comes around! Now that my focus is off the mid driver, I am looking for something that will fit this application. If anyone has any other ideas, don't hesitate to suggest...I don't think anyone has tested the bi-lateal ideas...a thin driver version may well be easier to create than the rail driver also... Meanwhile... guitarmonky55 Have seen your posts about the fernandes...didn't have anything to say about that...but I am glad you got the thing running. I am surprised if the core was aluminium flashing (could it be galvanised steel?) as aluminium is non-magnetic! Still, if it works, you are onto a good thing. This project does take some perserverance, but it does work. The simple single coil driver is still a valid design and perfectly good for most applications...side coil drivers, rare earth magnets...even the rail driver, are elaborations on the basic idea. You may find that after a while, you might want to try an alternate driver design, or a different circuit...but this is all easy to do. Fitting any sustainer is a commitment...what the fernandes people dont point out is the amount of routing required to fit their systems, the complicated wiring, the lack of customer support (when it goes wrong...Sustainiac is better I believe) and the lack of flexability in the circuit size and placement of switches, etc. Hopefully, we are working towards an easy approachable circuit that will suit many/any application. I have several ideas laid out, but I really need to test them... Finding time can be a little tricky...though I am substantially on my own these days...there is still plenty to do and commitments to attend to...not to mention work and such. Still, it is a distraction for those times I have nothing better to do. I should also recommend the DIY layout creator that I have been using...this software is great and specifiically designed for effects and stuff. In addition to a very easy to use FREE software, there are a lot of circuits verified and laid out already to down load here, including our own fetzer/ruby combo (the creator attempted this project)...here's a link DIY software creator circuits page You will need to download the program and each file from this page to view them. Once you get used to it, it can be a lot of fun transcribing things to a practical layout. I like to see how small I can make things on strip board for instance...a lot of these turn out a lot smaller than PCB boards which cost a bit and have to be ordered anyway. Anyway...must run...work night and dinner cooking...up at 4am again for the last go around so better get to it and get a little sleep! pete Edit... WOW...was just checking out the DIY Layout web page and there is a Sustainer Tutorial and big thank you to me and Col and the others who contribute here...check out this link...DIY Software Sustainer Link I must send a Thank You some time. If you are reading this B thanks Edited July 16, 2007 by psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarmonky55 Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 you know youre right it is galvanized steel. I was just running my mouth when I said aluminum. It came from a roll of that roof flashing that we had lying around. I dont have near as much time to tinker with guitars and such as I used to, as playing is my primary focus and takes up almost all of my time now. I like this single coil driver, and i may mess with some of hte more advanced drivers you guys are working with if time permits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted July 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Yep...gal steel is a great magnetic material to use...well done on getting the bits together and making it work. I'm sure you will agree that for the cost of this project compared to the commercial units, you are on to a good thing...enjoy playing with it and let us know how the installation goes and anything you find about playing it that might encourage others... cheers... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 just out of interest what happens when you do vibratos, do get a harmonic U2 style? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franky Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 (edited) Wow, glad to see that the "feedback is holding on"... I just tried the Fetzer/Ruby on breadboard, it works with some distortion, but I think it's due to my speaker, and I didn't include the output stage to decrease the level. I'm about to make the driver, and the only wire i can get so far is some 0.15 or 0.3mm, so comes this question: do i really have to use 0.2mm wire or will it work with thoses? And which one is better? So far this is just a test, i don't care about magnetic distortion or buzz, i'll bother later.. The bobin lenght is 200m, think it should be enough... Concerning the driver, I extracted some metal bars out of a transformer, this is layered so I can pick up the right width. I'll use an old pickup magnet, but if I can find rare earth magnets or neodymium ones, could be great... Edited July 20, 2007 by Franky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted July 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2007 Hi Guy's...been an eventful week...been a bit busy... Anyway...done a little testing and a bit of ciruit building and come up with some new ideas on that front too that I want to try out. The side driver may be a wipe out...I have brocken the winding wire close to the coil and am unlikely to be able to salvage it. I was able to test it a little before this however. Didin't work so well as intended (with the coils on their side) but got some really encouraging results with the driver on it's side...err, with the blades on their side...so kind of a stacked design with the poles directed towards the centre blade). So good in fact, that it was able to work on the bridge side of the middle pickup on the sustainer strat (with it's internal circuit and neck and middle bypassed) without too much distortion in both modes. So, in this state effectively a strange kind of stack design...go figure. A few new posts...welcome Chip just out of interest what happens when you do vibratos, do get a harmonic U2 style? Not sure how you mean by this. U2 do use the sustainer, particularly featured in the song "with or without you". Vibrato's dont cause harmonics but can help bring them out a little more in harmonic mode. Some effects have filter sweeps (flangers, phases and delays) that can create interesting effects too...a wha is particularly useful to bring out those higher harmonics... And...Welcome Franky I just tried the Fetzer/Ruby on breadboard, it works with some distortion The amp will be a little ugly, it is to be expected...it won't be heard, hopefully, through the sustainer as it should be silent...this is only a drive signal. More of concern is... I'm about to make the driver, and the only wire i can get so far is some 0.15 or 0.3mm, so comes this question: do i really have to use 0.2mm wire or will it work with thoses? Yes... The bobin lenght is 200m, think it should be enough... You will get many, many drivers out of that...but it is the wrong guage... So far this is just a test, i don't care about magnetic distortion or buzz, i'll bother later.. Try the thinner one, but it is not a matter of distortion but the amount of power that flows through the wire and it's consequential electromotive force. Two thick and the current will flow too easily (the coil will also be huge!)...to thin and it will be less power and significantly fewer turns (thinner wire creates more resistance)... Concerning the driver, I extracted some metal bars out of a transformer, this is layered so I can pick up the right width. If you can get it out easily, this is an ideal material...ferrites great but hard to work with (they are non-conductive and are able to change states quickly as they don't hold magnetisim so well, even if highly magnetic)....ordinary steel is cheap and easy to work with and works perfectly adequately...the last successful driver posted used "found" galvanised flashing.... If a magnet sticks to it well, it will probably do a reasonable job. I'll use an old pickup magnet, but if I can find rare earth magnets or neodymium ones, could be great... Ive played with Rare Eath magnets quite a bit, my last driver used 12 of them and all the Hex devices used them...but for a standard driver design, an ordinary ceramic magnet of some kind is ideal. Alnico work fine but there is a slight risk of them loosing power over time...they can be remagnetised easily enough...coincedently, with a rare earth magnet...so they do have some uses. Generally they are very powerful for thier size and so don't etend their magnetic "throw" as far...you need to get close to the strings...and then they are likely to be too powerful or the field too condensed. Overall, you are heading in the right direction. An interesting driver with that 0.15mm wire would be a dual coil with 2x16ohm coils in parallel...if I do another dual coil design I would most likely use 0.125 as I have a feww rolls of that around. Anyway... Have designed yet another preamp and largely soldered it up. It is a typical opamp design but am designing these little layouts so as the electrylic capacitors lay on their side to make the circuit a little less chunky. If all goes well with this one, the gain may need to be adjusted and a few values tweaked...I have some ideas for simple automatic gain control, or limiting (not compressing) which may aid in the distortion problems. I found the mid driver could work well but once the strings really started moving it was just too much and needed to be trimmed back a little. My approach would be a little simpler than Col's circuit and occupy a middle ground and be in the form perhaps of a third "module"...have to be prepared for a huge flaw in my plans... With the unexpected demise of my side driver and considering the strange results of the experiment (working better on it's side)...it opens up a few more ideas to try (perhaps a stacked driver could work). I still want to build somehting of this kind of dimension, so perahps a bi-lateral driver may be tried next or something using this thinner wire...we'll see. So...this week was a bit of a right off...but a few more things have been advanced on the home front and this will, hopefully, make me a little more of a free agent. Better get some sleep...4am wake up call... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franky Posted July 21, 2007 Report Share Posted July 21, 2007 (edited) Ok thank you Pete, i'll try to find some 0.2mm wire, cheaper than on wires.co.uk if it is possible... They measure the amount of wire by bobin's weigh, the smallest value is 50g, how many drivers do you think I can wind with that? Edited July 21, 2007 by Franky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted July 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2007 No...you want to find somewhere that sells small reels...about 25M is more than enough for several drivers and should cost about A$7 (little less in the US)... Try an electronics supply type place, it is often used to wind chokes and inductors for speaker crossovers and the like and is sometimes called magnet wire or enameled wire. A single coil driver will only need about 200 turns...that really isn't that much, so a big reel of it really has not much purpose. good luck... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franky Posted July 21, 2007 Report Share Posted July 21, 2007 (edited) Okay, I'm not sure to find that kind of stuff around there, I'm in France and our electronic shops are not well-furnished... We miss some Radioshack stores.. But I keep on searching, maybe if I can motivate some members of my forum for a common order at wires.co.uk, it can worth it.. What do you mean by 25M? 25 meters? Edited July 21, 2007 by Franky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crep Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 Sorry guys, are the j201 and the bf245c the same? i've found only the 245, it works but I think it sounds a little too low...which's better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franky Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 Hum I use a J201, which is loud, but for the replacement I found this: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-69082.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted July 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2007 Hi guys... Just letting you know that I am still around and still thinking of doing some more work on this. Have been a bit busy with a few things but I am reaching the end of this phase of procedures and am looking forward to pottering about with this a little more. I have made up a preamp circuit and have some ideas for some simple limiting circuit. One of the things that the mid-driver taught me was that it worked well with the string being driven up to a point, but eventually it gets loud and the string vibrate so much as it causes distortions and such that are unwanted. I also note that it seems to have more trouble in harmonic mode with drivers close to pickups. So...am looking into the posibility of using or LDR or optocoupler or even simple diodes to limit the drive after a certain point or even turn it off momentarily and allow the string to vibrate under it's own steam for a bit. Col has already devised such a circuit but I was looking at my IC preamp and wondering if it couldn't be adapted in some simple way without adding too many components or another add on module for AGC... I am also having a problem with drivers. I can continue with the mid-driver/rail driver thing (it is still installed in the guitar) but am now more favouring a compact driver to sit beside a pickup with bypass...very mcuh like the ideas originally concieved with the Hex devices. As reported, the side driver, on it's side!, worked surprisingly well in a stacked mode. The magnets were aimed at eachother (like poles to the centre blade) which I have not seen before in any stacked pickup or driver...interesting. I have even considered going back to Hex technology and neodyminium magnets but I would need to make an investment of a hundred of the components (again) to even experiment in this direction. Winding a coil yourself is easier in so many ways. The next driver I am thinking of trying is a compact bi-lateral driver with two parallel coils of 16 ohms using 0.125mm wire (I seem to have a few rolls around here...I bought them before settling on 0.2mm as the better option). I could also try a stacked design of similar specs but I suspect that some of the success of the last one was the magnetic structure but unfortunately I am out of those magnets. I have been working on my living copnditions and have retrieved all that I can from my failed marriage. All of this I have been sorting out and am amazed at the things that are surfacing. Originally I came here with the intention of working on pickup designs...I have found my pickup winder and a fair amount of pickup wire so I may well do something in that area. I also have a few guitars in pieces that could be put to good use. I am enjoying making these little circuits and am learning a lot. I'd still like to break the sustainer code and even build the circuits or even drivers if I could get a good solid design and quit a lot of the experimentation. Still...there is more to life than sustain and I really want to get back to playing the guitar a lot more and just hanging out and enjoying life a little more after being in a little bit of hibernation for the last few years. Hopefully this year will be easier than the last. I will try out a few practical experiments with my new circuitry and keep you all posted... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted July 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2007 Just another update...things are a little quiet on here lately...hmmm Am working on a special jig thing for a new coil...am going back to basics here a little. It is not the kind of thing that most would generally want to do for a one off thing but often it is the jig that makes the best results for intricate and accurate constructing. Once the jig and method is set up, the coil should come easy. This one will also need to be machine wound and should take only minutes to wind and so can make use of epoxy for winding. Unfortunately, with out such a jig, I can't even experiment with such a coil...but if it works I can make any number... There are a few clever and simple ideas involved that may inspire people who want to really get into building stuff like this...many already developed and working from previous works and not documented here. On the circuit, have built but not tested the new preamp...nice simple circuit and construction with easy to locate bits and versatile...not sure when I will find to fully test it. Also have a layout for my original preamp which is kind of neat, but a little more complex to build. If all goes well with this basic preamp design, I have been doing a bit of research and found a whole heap of schematics for clipping, compressing, limiting and rectifying signals to consider...some complex but others surprisingly simple. The idea is to limit the gain at a certain threshold to avoid the fizzy distortion and offer more control without the complexity of Col's remarkable circuit. Have been checking out a few old sustainer patents again to see some of their approaches...found a few I had missed that recalls some of our ideas and the things I had considered plus a few more approaches. Seems to be so many patents on this device...hmmm Google have a patent search engine that is really good and the cross references much easier and quicker than the official USPTO site. Also, updated Firefox and the new version has an auto spell checker that I have only noticed working in this post so there should be no more spelling mistakes... So...I am working on a basic universal, simple coil design but with accurate manufacture...less of the adventurous designs for a bit I think...and a new standard circuit. If all goes well, I will be likely to be able to supply a kit of circuit and coil to start people out with there own experiments as a kind of starter kit, then return to refine things a lttle more. All of this time permitting of course but things are settling down a little...have been going through a whole bunch of things and setting up a work area for this kind of thing and some other projects I have in mind to keep my mind occupied. Also, have in mind some serious guitar playing and recording, so it would be nice to have the sustainer thing tucked away for a while and not left up in the air. Hope there is still some interest in the sustainer project, it has gone a little dead since being pinned to the top of the page... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted July 30, 2007 Report Share Posted July 30, 2007 (edited) Just another update...things are a little quiet on here lately...hmmm Hey, don't worry, its just the natural ebb and flow of the sustainer thread... or maybe we need to fit a fresh battery ? Personally I've been without the internet for while, so not able to contribute. On the circuit, have built but not tested the new preamp...nice simple circuit and construction with easy to locate bits and versatile...not sure when I will find to fully test it. Also have a layout for my original preamp which is kind of neat, but a little more complex to build. If all goes well with this basic preamp design, I have been doing a bit of research and found a whole heap of schematics for clipping, compressing, limiting and rectifying signals to consider...some complex but others surprisingly simple. The idea is to limit the gain at a certain threshold to avoid the fizzy distortion and offer more control without the complexity of Col's remarkable circuit. I'm still unhappy with my circuit - a number of deficiencies are bothering me... I want to start on an improved design, but I'm having trouble selecting/obtaining suitable components... I also have another unrelated electronics project that I want to work on that is battling for attention The real breakthrough I had with my circuit - the thing that will be carried over into any future designs - was the realization that _any_ distortion of the input signal would add fizz/fuzz. This is a problem because most limiter/compressor/expander circuits add some distortion - usually the simpler the circuit, the worse the distortion. Thats why my first circuit (the LM13700 based one) was not good enough. There are two problems associated with this: #1 If you _must_ avoid all distortion, you cannot push the amp as hard, so maybe the basic LM386 is not quite muscular enough... #2 My 2nd (and latest) circuits main fault is that it has a slow response - I think this is due to the feed-forward design - the response can be speeded up, but not without adding distortion (sods law really) The only solutions I can think of are: a. Find a readily available IC based all-in-one compander/amp that has a fast response with very low distortion figures in the guitars frequency range and is available in a DIY friendly package. Some older chips look promising, but these were manufactured for tape recorders, so just aren't available these days (e.g. Sanyo LA4160 has preamp with agc and power amp : 2.2w @ 9v, 1w @ 6v all on one 14 pin IC - ideal for us). The modern equivalents are tiny SMD components, some of which don't even have any pins, just minute pads on their undersides ! b. Compromise! switch to a feedback limiter - this means that the overall volume response will not be as even accross the strings or up the neck, but the limiter circuit I based my design on was originally a feedback design, and in that configuration has insanely fast response with no distortion - whats more, the response is easily controllable, so could provide some nice new knobs to play with I would probably reduce the complexity of the harmonic mode circuit which also needs to be tuned as some of the modes need more gain to work adequately. Of course, improving the driver will always help as well. fwiw, I'm not worried about this thread dying, but I am disappointed that there have been so few audio examples posted to the Sustainer Sounds thread cheers Col Edited July 30, 2007 by col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted July 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2007 It's great to hear from you again col...was a little worried you may have left us...have some things I'd like to run past you at some stage... Meanwhile... Had an unexpected day off (I had a day owing and have been really tired lately, so now was a good time)...so...have been working on an exciting new project for the sustainer... Of course, improving the driver will always help as well. Ah-ha...so, this will be of interest. I have been building a driver winder...electric with counter and tension control, it is simple and elegant and am really happy with the results...best of all, I had all the bits so it was effectively free! (except for a cheap calculator that I modified for the counter) Now...why would I want to make a winder for a device of only a few hundred turns when I have been advocating hand wiring all this time... Well, for one thing, it will make it possible to repeat experiments and quickly make coils for experimentation... Another thing is that it allows for different manufacturing techniques and materials, designs very difficult to wind by hand and for perhaps, even production... The impetus for this was that I have an idea for a design that I can't hand wind...this thing will be ideal for the job and will even be able to wind pickups at slow speed...excellent. The thing about winders is that everything has to be true or the wire won't wind properly. I have further developed the bobbinless/coreless coil jig into this device and with the accuracy and speed of machine winding and the design of this machine, I should be able to make use of quick setting epoxy. The result should be solid coils with no core or bobbin pieces at all...neato! Let's hope everything doesn't get stuck together in the winding or it sprays epoxy everywhere. As for the circuit, I have been looking at all kinds of designs of compressors, limiters or anything else that seems to be of potential use. There are preamp chips as col describes but nearly everything is SMD or deleted so that's not much help. I want to keep this thing small and simple...so far my little circuits are fitting the bill, but they don't have the features that col's circuit offered and for some of my designs, like the mid driver, the conventional harmonic function and the runaway power (it goes ok untill the vibrations are so strong that fizz and distortion start to get out of hand). I have several ideas for new designs and implementing newer improved versions of older ideas...stay tuned... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted July 31, 2007 Report Share Posted July 31, 2007 Hi Pete and Col and any lurkers on the thread...... Pete, I agree with Col, it is coming up to high summer (well at least here in Spain), so you can expect a seasonal lull. But I suspect that once the heat starts to dispel, people's attention will most likely turn to the thread again. And if not, then it might just be that like me, people are waiting for something more straightforward to come out of the various approaches to the project. I say this because I suspect that for most this thread has tended to become more and more convoluted and confusing as more ideas are contributed, and I for one was waiting with baited breath for the outcome of the mid driver experiments, in the hope that this would finally afford a solution that avoided the wiring bypass nighmare we otherwise have to face. I imagine that unless people are well up to par in terms of the necessary skills required for this project, they are still like me likely to be sitting on the fence waiting for a more definitive solution. But that does not necessarily mean that they have given up on the idea . Things also tend to need space to breathe, so this natural lull might just be what is needed... I am curious as to what became of your recent experimentation with the e-bow you were building, I know you were successful in getting it to work, but have you had any further thoughts regarding the physical design and minimizing its size and producing ergonomics better suited to guitar techniques? Come to that, has anyone else been looking into such things lately, and has there been any progress? BTW Pete, great work with the bobbin winder and other designs, keep it up! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avalon Posted July 31, 2007 Report Share Posted July 31, 2007 Hello everyone, just thought i'd stop by and say hi again, got a few things going on atm, and not alot of time to do much in, but once i do i'll be back on the development, and my brother has just bought an Ibanez S series (22Fret HSH format) which im hoping i can twist his arm into Sustaining up lol, once i get the time anyhow. Hope you're all doing well and happy sustaining Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted July 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2007 Thanks guys...very cold and windy winter down here ...so all tacked up! Good to hear from everyone Yes well...the mid-driver is still in the guitar but didn't quite work as well as I might have hoped. A bit of noise in harmonic mode and will sustain nicely up until the signal gets too strong, hence my interest in the AGC stuff again. However, I have also been put off by the necessity for the driver to be so close to the strings in that position and believe now that the loss of the middle pickup and the rewiring that that involves is quite a sacrifice, perhaps more so than the bypass wiring. I am not totally convinced also of the rail design. Dual coils do have their advantages but producing this one was a bit of work...perhaps there are still a few more approaches left... As for the ebow, have not had a lot of time to work on it and did nothing in the way of miniaturing it or changing the design approach. I did successfully use two relay coils...one for the pickup, and the other rewound for a driver...very easy to do. It has taught me a little about how they work and their limitations. The fizz/distortion is in part a feature of these things and they work pretty much exclusively with the neck pickup...hmmm (check out their web site)...the sustainer and the ebow are related but quite different beasts... There are always limitations I fear. For all the work I have done on this, I think the most standout achievements (besides facilitating this convoluted discussion) and original ideas have been the "thin coil" idea (with simple amplification) and my pickup/driver combo. The "pickup/driver" really does have a lot going for it, no extra magnets, no loss of pickups, no need for a mid pickup slot, easy installation and it worked very well on my strat (except the turn off pop!). It is along those lines that my new winder is intended to explore a little more. There are a couple of ideas that I am thinking of but even if I were just to be able to quickly replicate my original design or improve upon it, or to be able to manufacture coils to retrofit to pickups... ...it would be an advance and give me something to work with for circuitry ideas. So...the winder works perfectly...have to find a little more wire and wind a coil yet. The only obstacle will be the glue potting process. I have made form work from plastic that I hope will not stick, and will spray it with silicone as a release agent before winding. The core is sacrificial in my initial design...but as I say, it is adaptable...it winds at about 100 turns per minute and the counter (calculator trick) works perfectly and will count up or down very accurately at these speeds. You wouldn't want to go any faster with glue potting and these kinds of coils...it means though that it could be accurately wound within 2 minutes and there is no bobbin making or extra materials involved so considerable time and energy is saved there. Along with standard single coil designs or dual HB coils for pickup conversion, no work has been done on things like active shielding and I don't think the stacked coil has been fully explored yet (my side driver had some very encouraging results in this mode)...these designs may have application to the pickup/driver conversion strategy where as typically the rail design does not. The rail design also has a close magnetic throw and works largely between the blades...It works well when very close to the strings and has low EMI, but seems to be more prone to the variances in string action as a result. The dual coil design did seem to fix the turn off "pop" however and has been the only solution I have found so far. This pop is caused by the signal from the collapsing magnetic field induced in the pickup (similar to relay noise) and so will be a tricky one to fix. A dual coil design seems to solve the problem by inducing and equal and opposite spike, thus canceling it out, or so it would seem. Anyway, got a new toy and tool in the sustainer development armory and if all goes well, I should be able to quickly make all kinds of interesting coils...once they are developed I will have the means to easily and accurately replicate them (without the hassle of taking readings while the fingers are all glued up and such) and it will enable me to work on some things that would be near impossible without such a machine (ultra thin coils anyone? Dual concentric coils?) Better get back to reality though, busy week again, plenty to do... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2007 Hey there...me again... Went out and got some supplies...lots of wire! Now...have done one test coil with the winder. I think it will get better, the epoxy was setting a little too fast. With the first one I needed to measure the ohms as I went, but now with the counter I can wind to that for the same result that will make it a lot easier. The winder worked perfectly and I was able to get the coil out of its form work...I used silicone spray to stop it sticking and the form work is made of PFTE anyway for non stick purposes. I was a little concerned so took the coil out while the epoxy was still "green" and it tried to banana up under it's own tension. I was able to get it back into the form work to clamp it for a while, see if that helps (the epoxy is the only thing holding it together). I am sure the quality of the coils will improve as I do more...as it is, this worked out a little over 8 ohms so my guesstimations for this new design proved pretty accurate. The coil bulges a little at the sides as with the speed I had to work (doing readings etc) I didn't have time to push those in as much as I'd have liked, perhaps I need to make side clamps. I also over estimated the internal core width a little, but with my device, this is adjustable. So...the initial results is that this winder and form work can make bobbinless-coreless coils and so now it is a matter of perfecting the procedure. The lessons learned is that I will have to work quickly and will need to allow the epoxy to fully harden, perhaps push in the coil sides or have some kind of clamp system to hold them in while the epoxy sets. I have determined the number of winds for this particular design and that it will fit in the space allowed and this coil will be enough to test it for proof of concept...the quality can only get better...as it is the winder makes a very neat coil which is the general idea. This winder is designed in this mode to make a series of designs on a basic theme...it can of course be adapted for all kinds of winding styles, not just this coreless epoxy style. As for the circuitry, have bought a bunch of supplies and still have a few ideas to explore on that front...reading and learning quite a bit but I really want to keep things simple and small with cheap and easily obtainable components...at least for now... Have the kids for a bit so will give it a break, but it is hard not to be tempted to make some more coils... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted August 1, 2007 Report Share Posted August 1, 2007 Hey there...me again... Went out and got some supplies...lots of wire! Now...have done one test coil with the winder. I think it will get better, the epoxy was setting a little too fast. With the first one I needed to measure the ohms as I went, but now with the counter I can wind to that for the same result that will make it a lot easier. The winder worked perfectly and I was able to get the coil out of its form work...I used silicone spray to stop it sticking and the form work is made of PFTE anyway for non stick purposes. I was a little concerned so took the coil out while the epoxy was still "green" and it tried to banana up under it's own tension. I was able to get it back into the form work to clamp it for a while, see if that helps (the epoxy is the only thing holding it together). I am sure the quality of the coils will improve as I do more...as it is, this worked out a little over 8 ohms so my guesstimations for this new design proved pretty accurate. The coil bulges a little at the sides as with the speed I had to work (doing readings etc) I didn't have time to push those in as much as I'd have liked, perhaps I need to make side clamps. I also over estimated the internal core width a little, but with my device, this is adjustable. .... Sounds like positive developments... One thing I would suggest is that you seek out some different epoxy for potting... most of the off-the-shelf ones are super quick drying and therefor difficult to work with and also highly reactive and dangerous. There are slow curing epoxies available, you just need to look harder They give you plenty of time to do the winding - even by hand - and also give you time to wash before they burn if you accidentally get any on your skin... The one I used is maybe too slow for you ? 'Araldite precision' - the useful working window is about an hour, and it takes maybe 24 hours to fully cure, but is 'hard' sooner than that. What I need to find is a suitable syringe to make applying the stuff to the coil easier and less messy. cheers Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted August 1, 2007 Report Share Posted August 1, 2007 Well, I haven't "left!" I've been reading, but I just haven't had any more experiments to contribute. No pressure at all Pete , but I am kinda still waiting on your new circut, since mine is so bad. I really think that my drivers are decent -- and that if hooked up to a good circuit they would work great..... Also, there still seems to be a lot of interest in sustainers in general -- my youtube video just hit 1000+ views! Just post the circuit schematics when they are ready, and I'll be good to go again!! Thanks a lot for the work! -MRJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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