Captainstrat Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 Okay, so here's an update! I performed a few pickup swaps and I'd say I'm 90% of the way there. I'm getting the best results on the wound strings (to be expected) and I know I should use heavier strings for better results and I might consider a different driver prototype: as it stands, setting the driver as little as 1/16" too close to the strings generates too many false harmonics and wolfe-tones...but at a "safe" distance from the strings I'm getting decent performance from he E-A-D and G strings. I'm not sure how strong the magnets used by Fender are, but that driver's magnetism is definitely stronger than the Dimarzio VV's. The pickup swaps: (bear in mind that I own a few guitars) I had a pair of Kent Armstrong PAF's which have a nice jazzy tone, I installed them in my home made Les Paul. Said Les Paul was equiped with a Dimarzio PAF Joe and a Tone Zone...I installed the Tone Zone in the bridge position of the Strat ... a perfect fit for the DIY Sustainer, plus the Tone Zone is F-spaced, a better fit for the Strat. So I'm 90% there...all I might need is a few minor tweaks for it to be at 100%! Tried to record a few clips...wouldn't you know that once I have it working decently I can't figure out what to play Other than a few Tony Iomi-esque "fun with feedback" wankings I can't think of anything tasteful to play...oh well... At least I'm on the right track! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted January 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 Hi captain! Glad to hear it is starting to fit together for you...no one said it would be easy and many have given up. I hope you took my comments to encourage you...I am feeling a little harsh lately... A lot of people have become hooked over the years with this stuff and I am sure that, even when you succeed, you will want to keep developing the thing more. It would be great for others to hear some clips, also to see the device and such. Unfortunately, and I know people will cringe, a lot of my present work is commercially confidential. I miss being able to freely share developments and my own trials and many errors along the way. A hint of what I am working on is a bass sustainer. As in previous posts, it is possible to do this on a bass, sustainiac even had such a model. I increased my output cap to 470uF (though perhaps I went too far with this) and built a driver with very strong neodyminium magnets set a fair way back from the strings in the neck position using a coil of about 8 ohms but of a very thin design. The whole "assembly" for testing surface mounted (in fact it needed to be raised) using plasticene (oily modeling clay) for testing. I got some "interesting" results! For all the time I have worked with this (I think the thread is over 5 years old now) I still keep finding new things in the "failures". The device worked, but there is a noticeable difference between the sensitivity in harmonic and non-harmonic modes. This applies equally to the guitar of course, but is more noticeable and able to be played with in various ways in this test mode. For instance, the magnets and or the coil can be flipped over! It is still somewhat of a mystery to me. Another cringing bit of news is that, in playing with the bass, I set up the driver on the bridge, just in front of the saddles (this was something I tried with the guitar with very limited success with the HEX designs...the idea was to have a device so efficient and small it could be mounted at the bridge and allow all pickup combos to work, surface mounting of the circuit, battery and switching (in a tail piece design...see the mid 30 pages of this thread). A guitar pickup is very close to the bridge and it is unlikely we will see this anytime soon. However, on a bass there is usually (certainly on my MM copy) significant space between the pickup and bridge. It worked better than in the neck position...on the bass! However, it reminded me of the HEX technology, and so I fosicked around for the parts I had left over from this and built an 8 element "octo" driver for a 4 string bass. This is the cringing part, because the HEX technology was never revealed, with only hints and verification through the late LK to whom I sent one for testing. It is too early to tell how well this will work but this technology has no direct magnetic pull on the string and very little longtitudinal EMI. I am hoping with the space available on a bass between the pickup and the bridge and with the bridge itself creating a kind of magnetic "sink" this will work even better. Despite my "secret technology" that will frustrate many, it did work with a conventional coil and could also work well with perhaps 4 series coils too...I may even return to that scheme, but I am intrigued by the prospect of revisiting the HEX designs for this one off project because it had so many good features to it, including no coil winding...plus, I have the parts and nothing to use them on!!! ----------- I am working on a whole host of other projects, some of which feature sustainer technology, most not. These will be the subject of other threads elsewhere in the near future. One that is relevant is a telecaster I am doing. I am making a one off telecaster sized driver for a new SCN pickup (hopefully ariving soon). The circuit will be housed under the bridge pickup. The guitar will be fitted with a kahler hybrid tremolo. This unit is really good, and will suit the chrome look of this guitar beautifully, and is a really fantastically engineered product. One particularly neat thing about the kahler is that it shares qualities with a number of trems, fine tuners and extreme action like a floyd for instance but with a cam like action in ways similar to a fender or perhaps even more...a bigsby...and no back routing! It has 6 way adjustability of the bridge saddles which is particularly clever too. In relation to the sustainer, it bends the strings via a cam and has roller saddles just ahead of this. This means that, although it can bend both up and down like a dive bomb, the strings, although going slack, do not change their angle to the neck or pickups in doing that. This could be a good, or a bad thing (too much slack and the strings may "stick to the pickup magnets, fenders raise the strings as they slacken)...but it is one of the few modern tremolos that allow for an even space between the driver and the string while in use. This model is a "hybrid" because it can be locked to a fixed bridge with a rear Allen bolt. A trem is not necessary for a sustainer guitar but personally, I find the ability to bend those long notes both up and down and several tones to be of great musical benefit...something to consider. ------------- Meanwhile , the search is still on for a compact and reliable switching circuit. I am playing around a little with the 4053 multiplexer but have yet to play with audio signals...there could be a bit of clicking and stuff to overcome. Neither the bass which has no bypass circuitry or the telecaster, which only has two pickups, will require switching more powerful that a 4pdt, but a strat, which will be the next one and the "standard" may cause some problems...I'd also like to account for "fat strats with coil splitting which is another element yet again. It may take two 4053's chained together or some other means to get enough switching power...that is a lot of chips size wise, but still smaller and cheaper than a 4pdt toggle as far as I can tell. The aim is not to compromise the standard strat switching or the passive nature of the guitar when off, also it could be triggered by any kind of switch which is cool. Wish1527 has been giving me a lot of help behind the scenes with some of this...thanks E...and certainly given me some avenues to look into further with it. He still likes the idea of Jfet switching and he may be right with that too...a lot of work to be done to even get close... ------------- later... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainstrat Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 Hi captain! Glad to hear it is starting to fit together for you...no one said it would be easy and many have given up. I hope you took my comments to encourage you...I am feeling a little harsh lately... A lot of people have become hooked over the years with this stuff and I am sure that, even when you succeed, you will want to keep developing the thing more. It would be great for others to hear some clips, also to see the device and such. Unfortunately, and I know people will cringe, a lot of my present work is commercially confidential. I miss being able to freely share developments and my own trials and many errors along the way. A hint of what I am working on is a bass sustainer. As in previous posts, it is possible to do this on a bass, sustainiac even had such a model. I increased my output cap to 470uF (though perhaps I went too far with this) and built a driver with very strong neodyminium magnets set a fair way back from the strings in the neck position using a coil of about 8 ohms but of a very thin design. The whole "assembly" for testing surface mounted (in fact it needed to be raised) using plasticene (oily modeling clay) for testing. I got some "interesting" results! For all the time I have worked with this (I think the thread is over 5 years old now) I still keep finding new things in the "failures". The device worked, but there is a noticeable difference between the sensitivity in harmonic and non-harmonic modes. This applies equally to the guitar of course, but is more noticeable and able to be played with in various ways in this test mode. For instance, the magnets and or the coil can be flipped over! It is still somewhat of a mystery to me. Another cringing bit of news is that, in playing with the bass, I set up the driver on the bridge, just in front of the saddles (this was something I tried with the guitar with very limited success with the HEX designs...the idea was to have a device so efficient and small it could be mounted at the bridge and allow all pickup combos to work, surface mounting of the circuit, battery and switching (in a tail piece design...see the mid 30 pages of this thread). A guitar pickup is very close to the bridge and it is unlikely we will see this anytime soon. However, on a bass there is usually (certainly on my MM copy) significant space between the pickup and bridge. It worked better than in the neck position...on the bass! However, it reminded me of the HEX technology, and so I fosicked around for the parts I had left over from this and built an 8 element "octo" driver for a 4 string bass. This is the cringing part, because the HEX technology was never revealed, with only hints and verification through the late LK to whom I sent one for testing. It is too early to tell how well this will work but this technology has no direct magnetic pull on the string and very little longtitudinal EMI. I am hoping with the space available on a bass between the pickup and the bridge and with the bridge itself creating a kind of magnetic "sink" this will work even better. Despite my "secret technology" that will frustrate many, it did work with a conventional coil and could also work well with perhaps 4 series coils too...I may even return to that scheme, but I am intrigued by the prospect of revisiting the HEX designs for this one off project because it had so many good features to it, including no coil winding...plus, I have the parts and nothing to use them on!!! ----------- I am working on a whole host of other projects, some of which feature sustainer technology, most not. These will be the subject of other threads elsewhere in the near future. One that is relevant is a telecaster I am doing. I am making a one off telecaster sized driver for a new SCN pickup (hopefully ariving soon). The circuit will be housed under the bridge pickup. The guitar will be fitted with a kahler hybrid tremolo. This unit is really good, and will suit the chrome look of this guitar beautifully, and is a really fantastically engineered product. One particularly neat thing about the kahler is that it shares qualities with a number of trems, fine tuners and extreme action like a floyd for instance but with a cam like action in ways similar to a fender or perhaps even more...a bigsby...and no back routing! It has 6 way adjustability of the bridge saddles which is particularly clever too. In relation to the sustainer, it bends the strings via a cam and has roller saddles just ahead of this. This means that, although it can bend both up and down like a dive bomb, the strings, although going slack, do not change their angle to the neck or pickups in doing that. This could be a good, or a bad thing (too much slack and the strings may "stick to the pickup magnets, fenders raise the strings as they slacken)...but it is one of the few modern tremolos that allow for an even space between the driver and the string while in use. This model is a "hybrid" because it can be locked to a fixed bridge with a rear Allen bolt. A trem is not necessary for a sustainer guitar but personally, I find the ability to bend those long notes both up and down and several tones to be of great musical benefit...something to consider. ------------- Meanwhile , the search is still on for a compact and reliable switching circuit. I am playing around a little with the 4053 multiplexer but have yet to play with audio signals...there could be a bit of clicking and stuff to overcome. Neither the bass which has no bypass circuitry or the telecaster, which only has two pickups, will require switching more powerful that a 4pdt, but a strat, which will be the next one and the "standard" may cause some problems...I'd also like to account for "fat strats with coil splitting which is another element yet again. It may take two 4053's chained together or some other means to get enough switching power...that is a lot of chips size wise, but still smaller and cheaper than a 4pdt toggle as far as I can tell. The aim is not to compromise the standard strat switching or the passive nature of the guitar when off, also it could be triggered by any kind of switch which is cool. Wish1527 has been giving me a lot of help behind the scenes with some of this...thanks E...and certainly given me some avenues to look into further with it. He still likes the idea of Jfet switching and he may be right with that too...a lot of work to be done to even get close... ------------- later... pete About the clicking...this may or may not apply to a circuit such as the Sustainer, but Guitar Player columnist Craig Anderton had a fix for cheap pedal switch popping (this is from like 1983 I'm working from memory here): patching a 1 meg restistor to ground from the pedal's input and (if I recall) a 100K resistor from the pedal's output to ground...whether or not this could be applied to sustainer I haven't a clue... For lack of a decent digital camera; my driver is a butchered Fender Single coil pickup (which was already busted), using popsicle sticks as spacers (to assure the winding remained in the top 3 mm's) and so much Carpenter's Glue for potting the windings look uneven and messy. The wiring under the pickguard would give any qualified guitar tech a nervous breakdown (wanna talk tangles?) ... but it's working so I won't complain! Er..how does one post a sound clip on this board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted January 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Well...I hope everyone is having a good year...seems to have gone a little quiet lately... I am still looking for suggestions on suitable switching for a typical 5 way strat or ideas to simplify installation and switching choices that work... I know of course, DIY means Do It Yourself...so I had better get along and DIY it then...will get back if/when I get a definitive solution... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted January 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Ok...so I really have to do a strat with 3 single coils to demo my device. I won't be able to work out an electronic version that suits all in time and I was not happy, and not sure that the original sustainer strat would work with a conventional wiring (that strat had a lot of mods)... I also still haven't found the diagram I did for the two pickup model...but it was very similar to this. It might help if people were to check it as I haven't built it yet (next week) but it looks ok to me... The clever thing in this over the previous version is that the power is switched on when the -ve signal is routed to the circuit. Also, the ground and hots to the M and N are joined together when activated yet kept separate when not and the first switch ensures that the bridge pickup is selected no matter the position of the selector which is effectively switched out. Connections to ground other than through this switch are to be avoided and the centre pole of the last switch (where the -9v is connected) could be used as a star ground for the bridge and other permanent grounds. The important thing is to keep the grounds of the pickups isolated...very important. This is still a little more complex than I would like to have it. In particular, with a little lateral thinking this may in fact work fine....but add an HB with coil split in the bridge such as a HSS strat or even a HH with splits or consider something like an ibanez Jem with HSH which does have splits...and it gets a lot more complex and I have found no switch that can deal with it... Anyway...so far, this is the best I can come up with. People who have done this DIY project or are having trouble should look carefully and ask questions about how this switch is working as what it does is vital to a successful installation of the device. As for my other switching woes...I really don't know how to deal with it, the more I think and draw the worse it gets. For instance...a bridge HB unless there is no splits or other tricky wiring (usually on a 5 way there are splits in position 4) you need to ensure that the pickup is selected, isolated from the selector where it could be combining with the middle in there, and then join the -/+ of the two coils just in case and connect the power too. Then the other pickups need to be deselected and isolated. I may be missing something important, but I can't see anyway that you can do it with a 4pdt switch and that is bad enough for the 3xsc pups above. I have been playing with 4053 and 4066 chips but you need quite a few to make a universal switching system and supply power to it for the guitar to work at all! This really is holding up progress, not only of the commercial unit but on test installs, my own strat and anyone who want to do this kind of thing with the DIY version. Meanwhile, I am doing a tele version for the skinny little chrome covered pickup and am starting work on an HB version too. The HB I wouldn't mind some input as to how this should look. The easiest thing would be to set it into a cover, but many won't like that. Alternatively, I could make a fake dual bobbin thing and attach it with the pole screws and some double sided tape or something. A lot of it is down to aesthetics I guess. A bass version is underway, but I am thinking of a different approach after some lack-luster tests...still not sure of it's musical value. Additionally, was contemplating the seven string option...I don't know what most 7 string players use in the neck position, but it would seem that HB's are most prevalent...any thoughts? Hope people haven't lost interest and thanks to those who are contributing behind the scenes...you know who you are... ...pete Oh...and...the original sustainer strat got a bit banged up and retired and the sustainer part had been disconnected for an experiment and never reconnected. I recently fixed it and although the guitar doesn't play so good anymore...the sustainer is still going strong and I really appreciate some of the raw energy and power this guitar has with the DIY version as typically described here. While the new version can play to some extremes, generally it is more controlled and there is something to be said for the originals response. This guitar is fitted with very cheap low powered single coil ceramic bar pickups, so the idea that very powerful HB pickups are necessary is simply not true. I did notice something that I would like to correct...in the latest version, so far, when you turn down the volume of the guitar the sustainer input is reduced too...on the old version, you can turn the volume right off and the thing sustains just as well...this is better. I wondered if this might have something to do with the -ve power switching of this version...or perhaps it is because the new circuit has a 1meg resistor across the inputs that should be higher or something. Any thoughts, ideas or suggestions are welcome, even half thought out ideas are good if they make one think a little harder...p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avalon Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Hello everyone, just been reading through some of the last few pages here after a long absence from the thread, its great to see plenty of ppl still experiementing, building and developing, I've not really done anything on my sustaining work since i was last here unfortunately, alot of things going on in other areas of life. On the plus side of things, my original fullsize humbucker driver is still in my Blue Floyd rose, still working well, maybe later in the year when things hopefully start returning to normality i'll be able to pickup where i left off. In the meantime happy sustaining everyone, and i hope you're all well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 (edited) I may be missing something important, but I can't see anyway that you can do it with a 4pdt switch and that is bad enough for the 3xsc pups above. I have been playing with 4053 and 4066 chips but you need quite a few to make a universal switching system and supply power to it for the guitar to work at all! As far as passive switching goes, I can't think of a better idea than what you already have in that picture above, unless you consider using a bunch of DIP relays (still needs a DC power supply for the switching duties). As an alternative to the 4xxx CMOS switches, have you considered JFET switching? I built a talkback unit for a studio a few months back that had a soft-muting function for the talkback mike in the control room based on a single JFET switch. The unit was based on the first diagram on this page. A discrete JFET system could potentially be a lot more compact and flexible than the 4xxx CMOS chip schemes. You'd probably need to buffer the pickup signal entering the switching array, but that can be done with another JFET wired as a source-follower. And it'd probably work fine from the existing 9V battery supply in the guitar that powers the sustainer amp without resulting in too much extra battery drain. Edited January 24, 2008 by curtisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted January 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 I may be missing something important, but I can't see anyway that you can do it with a 4pdt switch and that is bad enough for the 3xsc pups above. I have been playing with 4053 and 4066 chips but you need quite a few to make a universal switching system and supply power to it for the guitar to work at all! As far as passive switching goes, I can't think of a better idea than what you already have in that picture above, unless you consider using a bunch of DIP relays (still needs a DC power supply for the switching duties). As an alternative to the 4xxx CMOS switches, have you considered JFET switching? I built a talkback unit for a studio a few months back that had a soft-muting function for the talkback mike in the control room based on a single JFET switch. The unit was based on the first diagram on this page. A discrete JFET system could potentially be a lot more compact and flexible than the 4xxx CMOS chip schemes. You'd probably need to buffer the pickup signal entering the switching array, but that can be done with another JFET wired as a source-follower. And it'd probably work fine from the existing 9V battery supply in the guitar that powers the sustainer amp without resulting in too much extra battery drain. Thanks Curtisa, I'm glad to here a little feedback on this. While the switch I proposed would work with a very basic strat and most two pickup guitars, it would not deal with anything that uses the selector to split the HB such as a FAT strat and would potentially have problems with a neck split too as in an ibanez jem for instance. Captstrat emailed me his wiring and this is a classic example of how what may seem conventionally "ok" does not in fact work. I hope that he will tidy up the drawing and post it for trouble shooting. These pickups need to be isolated and if there is splitting in positions 2 and 4 with humbuckers, each coil needs to be treated separately as far as I can tell as in some positions of the selector there will be grounding or shorting of coils. Also, it would be advantageous in the bypass function to have a switch that automatically ties the bridge HB to conventional series mode...that is a lot of switching power... Jfets may be the answer, I am not ruling anything out but I had 3 chips of 3x4053 triple spdt switches and still found it hard to make a universal system. jFets work as spst so you would need to at least double that to get similar power (18 Jfets) and really, once it gets to that stage the chips must be easier... Even an ordinary H/S/S strat with coil splitting like my own, wont work with a single 4pdt toggle alone. I am pretty desparate for a solution as even discounting my "commercial" considerations that some may be adverse in helping with, having a DIY thing that can't cope with a typical HB installation is not satisfactory...plus obviously a lot of people have failed the final hurdle of installation negating all that they may have achieved with the circuit and driver construction! By necessity, this is an area that has been neglected...for all the drivers and circuits I have made, I have done few actual installs myself. A lot of the instruments that have been discussed have been about driver designs and such with little regard as these "test" instruments have typically one pickup or if the neck has been adapted two. 3 is possible, but until I devised this switch scheme even that had me stumped...now add a split HB in the mix and there are effectively 4 pickups to copntrol and a function to series wire automatically when switched on a further addition... So far, I have not even successfully made a scheme that will deal with it electronically. The switching circuit far outsizes the 4pdt switch in size, but is still cheaper and in SMD would be smaller. A big disinsentive is the need to have the switches powered at all times too...the guitar would effectively go "dead" in the event of total battery power loss (though it needs very little to run)... I will try and tidy up what I have been working on and post a more promising design which might help a little in understanding the complexities of what is required....or perhaps offer some alternative solutions...I may be over-thinking it, but I fail to see anyway that a mechanical switch other than a huge rotarty would be able to simply turn the thing on, making the whole thing impractical. I don't have the knowledge, but is there any potential in programmable "PIC' chips and the like to do complex switching functions, of would they simply trigger chip switches anyway? Anyway...will keep at it and am very pleased to get some input from the PG sustainer thread both for myself and for a number of people who have taken to contacting me direct and so not allowing the brainstrust to do their thing and inspire a solution collectively... thanks a lot and I will try and post some more concrete suggestions which may make it more obvious what is required...it is clearly something that, until you try it, one underestimates. I involved an ex-telecommunications guy recently and he could not understand why you couldn't just turn the power on! Explains the noise and slow internet down here I'd say. Although complex, there may well be some other doors open for other stuff such as an electronic replacement for a superswitch of more versatile selector...or maybe even preamping and buffering inf the power is going to be on anyway. It is very frustrating to find that while I took a lot to get a very simple circuit and compact down for this...that I have such a big and complex front end switching circuit just to turn it on...and even then the design is not clear. Any further input would be greatly appreciated. Meanwhile I will shortly install a strat with the above switch to verify that it does indeed work! later pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 I don't have the knowledge, but is there any potential in programmable "PIC' chips and the like to do complex switching functions, of would they simply trigger chip switches anyway? No, PIC's would only offer a solution to the controlling of the switching array, not actually provide a switch array in itself. PIC programming is something I do on a semi-regular basis, so if you decide to do something along that route I can provide some help if need be. I'm having trouble envisaging what exactly you're hoping to achieve with the switching - From my understanding I think all you want is to have the existing multi-way switch in any guitar available for normal duties (with coil taps if originally intended), and when you hit the sustainer switch it bypasses everything and goes straight to sustainer on/bridge pickup selected mode. Are we assuming that when in "on" mode the bridge pickup is used only as it's main function (ie single coil if single coil, normal un-tapped humbucker if humbucker)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted January 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Thanks Ca Yeah...I suspected that of PIC's but I may need some advice for some sustainer control ideas I have in the future... Also, was thinking of using a rotary controller, but again not a lot of expertise...but imagine a momentary push button on knob and an infinitely rotating control that sweeps through various gain, response and harmonic effects...no other switches... Now...switching... Ok...the posted switch will work for simple 2 and three pickup guitars. Many guitars however, such as an Ibanex JEM, FAT strat (HSH, HH, SSH) models split the bridge pickup. Most with five way switches will combine the middle pickup with the bridge in some selection of the selector. So...the aim is to: - completely isolate the neck and middle coils from the circuit. - ensure that no switching within the selector shorts the bridge pickup or combines it with the isolated coils - select the bridge pickup regardless of the selector position - ensure that when selected it is in a consistent phase and series mode, regardless of selector - provide power to the circuit ---optionally...to be able to incorporate a phase switch in the pickup to activate the harmonic function rather than reversing the it with the driver leads (there are various reasons one might want to do that... The other thing is to reduce switch size and cost and to make installation easier and make a universal circuit design that does not "limit" the guitar...this was a basic tenant of the work I started here way back, the "sustainer" should be a transparent addition to a guitar rather than forcing changes and limitations to it. So...a 4pdt switch is not going to cut it really and that kind of scheme is not really that uncommon these days. Already there have been many members here that are facing this with pretty standard guitars. What I would envision is a strip circuit with ins on one side and outs on another that you simply connect between everything from the pickups to the selector. It may be something incorporated into the "product" circuit or as a separate circuit that is optional if the guitar needs it. Wiring a 4pdt switch can take some skill and not everything about this is obvious. The consistency of peoples problems and lack of understanding of this crucial part is worrying too. It seems people are prone to simply not accept that the neck and middle pickups need to be removed from the circuit, that conventional shorting or lifting one end will suffice and they omit to consider that the selector in various positions (typically position 4) will combine it pickups that appear to be isolated...and even, forget that the selector itself may inadvertently be connecting "isolated pickups" to ground... Even when one finds a way often the wiring gets messy and is prone to mistakes that are hard to troubleshoot. Not only that, the 4pdt switch is large and the wiring makes it even larger with wires going from this to every electronic part of the guitar to make the functions...not at all an obvious and easily understood thing to have in the tight space of a guitar. Electronic switching would allow any switch to operate it from a simple spst to a push pull pot to perhaps a momentary switch...a 3 way could produce both the on/off and harmonic functions in one simple switch (if the harmonic function was electronic also)... I have also found that these big 4pdt switches are prone to wear and failure eventually...more so than a dpdt counterpart. While I have been interested in the whole driver construction and building a better mousetrap of the thread in recent times and I of all people have gone way down that road, the application of this project into real instruments should get a little more attention and is the primary concern of DIY'ers who what to build the project for real use in real instruments... Very little work has been done on this and even when it came up recently I had trouble finding the original posts and pics describing how I did it. These did not help with my own HSS strat and while I am prepared to go as far as a 4pdt to make it work...I have not been able to devise any scheme at all that will make it work. This is not as a result of "tricky wiring" but a simple HSS scheme that allows for coil splitting in various positions. So...I hope that explains a little more about the problem...I am open to all kinds of solutions, I am not "committed to electronic switching" but if that is what is required, then that is what needs to be done. The "electronics" solution appears to have ths significant drawback of the guitar not working at all if the battery goes dead...now that is a drawback, but no more so than conventional active pickup sustainers on the market. The need to have power on, all be it only a tiny draw, does open up other ideas such as incorporating a buffer into the switching system which would improve the guitar and the function of the sustainer IMHO... On another thing...on the original sustainer strat you can turn the guitar's volume down to nothing and it will sustain...on later versions as the volume is turned down, so too is the signal to the circuit...not so good. I was wondering if at 1meg imput impedance I have made it too small to avoid loading of the volume pot shorting it out...or else I did something tricky in the original guitar that I have just forgot...but I really don't see anything...any thoughts what is going on there? pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 OK, I can see some ways of doing it actively involving a combination of SPST and SPDT switching elements. Let me have a think about it a little and I might be able to come up with something. I think with almost any active solution the user has to consider the fact that if the battery goes dead then nothing comes out - I don't see that as being any more of an issue than bass players do, or if your guitar is fitted with EMG's. I think if your design is intended to accommodate any pickup installation you have to be prepared to get quite complex in the implementation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted January 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Thanks C I do have one scheme with 3x4053 triple spdt switches... The idea that the guitar goes dead with the battery is disturbing...especially when you consider the draw on a single 9 volt from a sustainer...but effectively, all sustainers have this problem as they use an active neck pickup typically. I had thought of using a separate button cell perhaps for switching or exploring other options... I wouldn't be considering it except if it were the only way to deal with the full range of possibilities, many of which frequently occur... Captainstrats problems for instance stem from a faulty installation and while he has not got back to me on some more details, his HSS strat may well not be able to cope with the 4pdt switch...nor my guitar. From what I have seen, the neck and middle pickups are not fully isolated and the "symptoms" he has described stem largely from this. The problem in part is due to underestimating the difficulties and overconfidence from which we have all been warned and probably been guilty of ourselves. For instance, the driver and circuit were not tested before installing so he was unsure of even having a working device and how it was expected to perform. Then, instead of disconnecting the middle and neck pickups completely by physically disconnecting it and seeing if it does in fact work with a single pickup, he felt it necessary to look for faults in the "power" of the bridge pickup, despite the assurances and evidence that it works pretty well with very ordinary cheapo SC pickups. Not that it is all the fault of this member, or the others who have done the same....this is an area least understood and documented and significant obstacles exist for which no solution has been offered except for the most basic instruments. It may well be that all is not lost for the captain, it may be that there is no coil splitting in the HB pickup and so the 4pdt solution is workable. On a personal and commercial position, I could make this thing with the 4pdt solution but demand both from the DIY crowd here and at PG and from prospective "customers" of my device. There will be a definite need for other options than a 4pdt toggle switch...such as a dpdt push-pull. The ability to control the signal into the amp also offers some tantalizing posibilities also. I will soon be working on some alternative formats. I have an HB design that looks very promising and I have already started some experiments on a bass (not sure of the musical or commercial value of that). Seven string designs are a possibility but it would seem that most people use HB neck pickups with this format. Hence, given that and the reluctance to drill up and install major switches like a 4pdt in a guitar, and restricting to this and the selection options, is not ideal. I would consider a hybrid scheme with perhaps additional modules for each guitar that needs to be controlled. Perhaps there are other means to control the system that have not been fully considered...simply disconnecting both the ins and outs of the selector (however this scheme also has a lot of switching), compromising of the true bypass and series wiring on the HB bridge pickup...but this would limit and make performance unpredictable...maybe an inverted signal could be sent back to cancel the EMI signal from connected pickups...maybe connecting large resistors to simply ground the coils completely would work, as I say...far little work, particularly practical has been done on this. One thing I have noticed is that there is a big difference in the EMI problems depending on driver coil phase and the pickup it sits on or near and the grounding of the pickup. So much so, that with the right orientation, partial isolation of the pickups may be possible if the harmonic function is sacrificed. As I think col pointed out, and I use in my mixed mode...a lot can be done before the circuit...the signal can be inverted or filtered in various ways to elicit a wider range of effects. This is where a PIC may come in handy, operated by a rotary encoder, a single rotary control could sweep through a multitude of gain and phase effects making the device even more versatile. Another reason to consider taking steps in this direction... Anyway...I hope that my return to the thread with typically long posts will inspire people to engage with these aspects. This is not to say that the development of differing driver models are redundant, but they are only of use if able to be easily applied in a playable instrument and the reason for any such device can be utilized in a musical form on real instruments. While "workable" DIY models are possible, finishing them off with a successful installation will only help to engage more in real development of all aspects including improved driver design. All this is apart from the "commercialization" of the device. It is not really practical to DIY the kinds of drivers I now make and even doing it will typically be more expensive and difficult than simply buying one of mine. The opportunity of having ready made driver coils should encourage those who seek to do more with this device and it has always been an ambition to allow this kind of work to build upon my own. I can see vast areas of development that could be added to what I have to offer and if only for my own limitations in knowledge skill and time, could materialize in the right hands. This has always been an aim of what I am presently involved in but the only way to achieve that is to make a success of the commercial side of it, to make in such numbers that it is affordable...and that means some sacrifices. I hope that my intentions with this is not simply to "profit" but to offer something more. There is also the distinct possibility of a different "forum" dedicated entirely with this subject and better organized may come and be funded from the commercialization of the device. Moves have already been made in that direction, but it is tricky to know if this kind of thing is of as much interest as it once was and the thread become curiously quiet...but still periods like have occurred before. Are there still opinions on this kind of thing... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachlandavis Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 (edited) Ok, so myself and my dad have looked over the Sustainer Tutorial and we have some questions before we start building. PSW mentioned "As far as installing it more permantly and in guitar's with neck pickups...Lovecraft and I came up with a solution and I'll add that here when it comes to hand. It's a simple DPDT switch as I recall, that connects the power turning it on and switching the pickups. Clearly it can be done....as the commercial systems do it!" The aim is to use the guitarts actual pickup and mount the driver on top, so is that solution around? I want the sustainer system to be integrated into the guitar. Also, PSW talked about how the Tutorial wasnt good for Harmonics for a couple of reasons. I really only want the sustainer for harmonics. So what do i need to do to make sure the sustainer will work for that (i know about the magnet direction)? I think you mentioned, The rod had to be magnetic and the wire had to be the right thickness? One more, can i use Pickup magnets as the magnets for the driver? Oh wait one more, We are thinking of building the Fetzer ruby, but is there instructiosn for something better around somewhere? Edited January 26, 2008 by Lachlandavis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utopian isotope Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 (edited) Hello there all. I have been reading this thread every now and then. I have built couple of drivers, and latest is wound around permanent magnet from an old pickup. My recent setup contains only one pickup(P-90) at bridge position, and space between pickup and driver is about 7,5 cm(3 inches). As many other readers here, I had that nasty squealing feedback, especially in harmonic mode. I don't know much about electronics or magnetics theory, so it's trial and error. One day I was tinkering again, and found out that between pickup and driver, there must be some kind of physical shunt element to eliminate cross-talking. So I took about 30 cm(10-11 inches) of solid (not braided)0,8 mm (swg 0-1?) copper wire and made a loop between driver and pickup, then hooked it in series with driver. There is very little resistance in that loop, so it won't draw too much power, and it sure doesn't excite the strings... But just enough of inductance or whatever it is, to keep driver and pickup separated. Somehow. Magically it just works, and eliminates most of cross-talking, so it is possible to put even more juice to that driver if needed. But it takes some testing, so be patient. Since my strat is in pieces right now, I have no experience with multiple pickups. If some of the readers are willing to test this, and succeed, maybe then we are able to develop better looking version of the loop. I have a primitive image of that thing, but it seems that I can't post it here directly. Edited January 27, 2008 by utopian isotope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted January 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Welcome new members....great... I'd love to see some pics utopian isotope as I don't quite understand what it is that you made...a copper loop? Maybe even a diagram... It is possible that you solved a wiring problem (although with only one pickup, installation should be very easy...no bypassing, just turn it on!) with the extra wire...all seems very odd. It is possible to magnetically shield the driver and or pickup by placing a large metal "sink" (lump of steel) between the two devices...pickup and driver...a passive shield...; or another coil emitting an opposite signal (active shield), which is the principle of the two coil designs, a kind of reverse Humbucker! To post a pic, open a www,photobucket" account then use the pic button when posting to paste in the pic's address from photobucket and it will appear in the post. Not too big a pic nor too many per post...please... Lachlandavis...I am glad you wish to try this, and I am glad you joined in on the thread first, a lot has been learned since those tutorials and a lot of mistakes have been made by not getting in tough first. The first point of call is to build a circuit and a scratch driver, using a magnet under a coil wrapped around a suitable piece of steel, you can test the device before any significant modification to the guitar and this will make everything a lot easier to 'tweak'. The project is incredibly instructive and intriguing on lots of different levels and you will no doubt be captivated by the thing when you get it working and those strings sing out forever...or play wonderful harmonic tones way above the normal guitars range.... However, it can be a perilous journey if you underestimate various aspects of it. If there are things that you need to know, don't hesitate to ask as repeating it can only help others if it has been said before and may spark up some interesting debate (which is why the thread has been so active for years now, popular and is incredibly long...) I have to be a little quick but will be posting soon with some questions of my own about some installation schemes I have developed...however, for you (and your dad...welcome also) a quick overview of your questions... PSW mentioned "As far as installing it more permanently and in guitar's with neck pickups...Lovecraft and I came up with a solution and I'll add that here when it comes to hand. It's a simple DPDT switch as I recall, that connects the power turning it on and switching the pickups. Clearly it can be done....as the commercial systems do it!" Yes, they do...but they do seem to have electronic switching, at least in the later models. I spent a lot of time yesterday developing a few ideas...I have a tele I want to do with adpdt switch but I am not sure that I have found a way to reliably turn the thing on. Generally a 4pdt switch is necessary...you have to completely isolate the neck pickup, select the bridge pickup and connect the power. The first point is the one people fail to appreciate, complete isolation means both ends of the pickup coil needs to be disconnected and any where in which it can be reconnected (say in the centre position of a three way 2 pickup guitar or 4th on a traditional strat....selector switch) ... so the selector may need to be isolated too. If you can direct me to where LK and I were discussing this, it might help my recall. Some things, especially while LK was still with us were pretty early on in the thread and some of the issues around installation were not fully appreciated till I actually did a full install into my "sustainer strat"...a bit of a grain of salt required with some early work...and anything untested (such as schemes I will be posting shortly), a lot of the main thread is about developing systems so diagrams here may or may not work and should not be used as gospel...check as you have done so by asking before committing to anything... The symptoms of this lack of isolation are similar to those of the driver being too close to the pickup, and so wiring issues can often be mistaken for a bunch of other things (such as poor driver potting or winding, circuit faults, etc). This is why it is best to not get too far ahead of oneself...test it before even considering too closely how you intend to get the thing into the guitar. If you have to make a second driver to install, so be it...it is typical that a few drivers may need to be attempted to get a coil good enough if you haven't experience in thsi...and let's face it, who has! I still get a lot of failures...I had a spectacular one the other day...will post a few pics soon But wire is cheap and it is not hard or time consuming...however, before yo jump into modifying a pickup, it is best to be sure with a few practice runs...ok! So...to help me and others, a complete description of the guitar and or pic would be good. A single bridge pickup guitar only requires a simple switch to turn it on...otherwise a 4pdt toggle or rotary is likely to be required...unless I have found a way that I want looked at by the brains trust here...possibly posted later today... The aim is to use the guitarts actual pickup and mount the driver on top, so is that solution around? I want the sustainer system to be integrated into the guitar. That's always been my aim and I feel the best. You have also arrived at a time when a lot of my own work is in developing the installation schemes further...so you are in luck! Check out if you have not already done so my "pictorial" linked at the bottom of this post (in the 'sig') to see how I did the first one. I would still try to build one as a separate driver or at least ask for advice on how you might do this before you risk the pickup by gluing stuff all over it! Also, PSW talked about how the Tutorial wasnt good for Harmonics for a couple of reasons. I really only want the sustainer for harmonics. So what do i need to do to make sure the sustainer will work for that (i know about the magnet direction)? I think you mentioned, The rod had to be magnetic and the wire had to be the right thickness? It is very important to find 0.2mm enamel winding wire...other gauges will not work! The core (middle of the coil) needs to be magnetic, but simply a piece of steel is fine and attaching a magnet to that works really well...just plain ordinary steel. Don't make the magnets too strong or they will try and stop the string vibrating... Another important point...More powerful is not better with this project BTW, it is a matter of efficiencies and a more powerful amp circuit or magnetic strength will only make things work. You want to get the effect with the minimum of effort as this also means the less EMI and unwanted affect that will come out. Also, PSW talked about how the Tutorial wasnt good for Harmonics for a couple of reasons. I really only want the sustainer for harmonics. So what do i need to do to make sure the sustainer will work for that (i know about the magnet direction)? I think you mentioned, The rod had to be magnetic and the wire had to be the right thickness? Regardless, I think you will want both modes and a harmonic switch, even if you keep it in harmonic mode. It is possible to get a "mixed mode" that has some really lovely harmonic effects where the notes "bloom" out into the harmonic. You may need to review exactly how the device creates harmonics...this is something that I am exploring also and am happy to discuss, along with the basics of how the device works, if you or your dad or anyone else would like...it can help and there is no harm... One more, can i use Pickup magnets as the magnets for the driver? If you are converting a pickup into a pickup/driver there are significant advantages to meet your aims. The neck pickup provides a great adjustable mounting point and all the wiring tunnels to connect it up...so less physical modification to the guitar. The magnets on a pickup are exactly right and so you do not need any extra magnets if you are building on top of a pickup...you may require a new or additional core though...give more details of what you have and are proposing... The down side is that it is possible if you fail, to have messed up or destroyed the pickup...depending on how you go about it. That is another reason to practice on a tester stand alone driver first before pulling apart the guitar and risking the neck pickup. A stand alone driver and the circuitry can be wired up outside the guitar and the driver held above the strings over the neck (away from the pickups) and you can see that the thing works and concentrate all your efforts into integrating it into the guitar. That may mean building another driver onto the pickup, but the second one is always better than the first Oh wait one more, We are thinking of building the Fetzer ruby, but is there instructiosn for something better around somewhere? There are various fetzer Ruby circuits around. I would recommend that you download the software DIY Layout Creator and the fetzer ruby circuit from there. The software is free and bancika also made his own version of this project a while back and has a partial tutorial at that site also...bancika's sustainer project page As well as some fantastic free and easy to use software that I use constantly, it was specifically designed for guitar projects and there are a huge array of stompbox project layouts to DIY if you and your dad get the bug...but you need the software to read it. ok...so enough for now...back to sleep for me down here...but, if you feel the need you can contact me directly or via email... Welcome everyone and it seems as if the thread is again reactivating itself... Oh yeah...and for newcomers...I am developing the principles of the DIY project and taking it a little further for a commercial device hopefully some time later in the year. As a result, some of that work is secret (unfortunately) so I won't be giving out publically too many details of circuits and such. Sufficient to say, that I have made a few of the DIY version (even made another variation this week) and if done right and with care, it can work amazingly well...and it is not "hard"...the tricky part for me is getting all the elements to work properly together. Have fun, stay safe and contribute questions and answers... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utopian isotope Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 (edited) Thanks psw for help. So here it is: http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg158/u.../experiment.jpg Yep it is almost too simple but as I said, it just works. Photo of my setup: http://s247.photobucket.com/albums/gg158/u...rrent=setup.jpg That driver in neck position is made of plywood, with milled hole for the driver core. And then it was totally soaked in epoxy, that took care of potting. No microphonic behaviour available there anymore. Just singing feedback. Need I say more? Edited January 27, 2008 by utopian isotope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted January 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Now...utopian isotope...while a picture may say a thousand words...I may need a few more than you thought you'd get away with by posting this... Somehow that looks a lot different to my guitar... I think it may be the driver that looks not at all like... (posted mainly for the benefit of Lachlandavis and dad... ...from my Driver Making Pictorial) It is hard to tell what is going on there...but there may be a fair bit of metal is it, hanging off the....errr....driver, and two bolts and what is that plate??? Perhaps the device is omitting signals other than standard EMI and an alien race somewhere is confused how some human was able to defeat their mind controling signals with a simple loop of wire...or indeed, what eveolutionary process would drive them to even try in this manner... Seriously though...you may have come across something "special" here. The loop of wire, although only a simple one loop coil and of a single turn coil (plus a few twists) may be creating a counter blocking active signal...though with the loop that close to the bridge pickup, you'd think that too would cause problems. Fitting the loop may simply have reduced power from the amp driving the driver...more power does not equal more sustain...in fact, I made one recently that was so efficient that in harmonic mode it literally was trying to stop the string vibrating...the first "anti-sustainer" perhaps?. It may be that there was a wiring problem and just fitting this loop fixed some faulty connection. It may have been some kind of loose connection or windings or other fitting (especially metal) which could have gotten fixed with the tinkering process...such things vibrate just like the strings but emit their own signals that can sound like squeal. The loop may even be acting as some kind of "filter"...it is not obvious what amp you are using, let alone the output capacitor, perhaps this loop has changed the effective capacitivness, inductance or resistance to have fixed it somehow. Thanks for sharing that...intrigued...need to know more... Interesting... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utopian isotope Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 (edited) Thanks for reply. My driver may look different, but there is nothing special. Amp that I use: http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/product/...t.asp?id=350506. I know it's bit of an overkill for this purpose, but it works well. Only small amount of volume is needed to get feedback. What comes to that driver construction, I took some plywood and sanded it down so that it has same thickness as drivers magnet. Then routed hole for the driver. Next I placed driver in that hole and soaked it with epoxy. I used clamp to squeeze it. It needed to be flat enough to fit under the strings, so I bolted it straight to body. That black rag on right side of the driver is just a piece of rubber, used for height adjustment. So there is no iron core, only magnet. And yes, I have checked amp and all the wirings many times. But that loop thing... it is mystery to me. Even tried it with other driver, that has iron core, with same results. But it sure has some capacitive or inductive properties. Something that eliminates and/or reverses the phase of magnetic field maybe? Edited January 28, 2008 by utopian isotope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted January 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Ah-ha... Well, I can't explain the wire loop's effect, but you have deviated a bit from the original design. Is the coil "thin" (ie 3mm or less) and how wide is the core of the coil...is it wrapped directly around the magnet...there has been a complementary "thin core" theory as well. As for the amp, without a preamp this thing will cause loading on the signal and is not really suitable and certainly is overkill...hmmm Still...of course, this is how I started off too, no point in getting too practical if you are content to try something different...perhaps there is something to that wire loop, but I can't say I know what it is... We had a member here spazzy/Shaun who rigged up a PA amplifier to an actual stock rail pickup and claims to have had success...it may have been working in ways not quite as one would ideally wish, and you will never be able to fit a PA amp into a guitar...and trail the mains lead around too...hmmmm Which reminds me, at 2.5 watts and no preamp....what are you running the thing with...some kind of mains transformer, it would eat batteries surely. Why this comes to mind is that, while it might seem to make sense to run the amp off of a power adapter when testing stuff (batteries can get expensive), often the transformer in there is the thing that is generating EMI and signals of their own into the drive signal. These can easily cause parasitic feedback or at least cause inefficiencies by trying to drive the strings with "noise" and so requiring more power and thus more EMI...a vicious cycle... Now, one give away is if the thing seems to work better with g notes....the 50hz cycle seems to generate this kind of signal, at least in Australia. I would very much encourage you to try some kind of preamp and see if that doesn't improve things a lot. One way, if you really don't want to build an appropriate amp, is to use an effect box...a compressor would be good or a mild overdrive into the driver. The preamp in such 'boxes will alleviate loading and you will get a different and improved response I imagine...possibly running the thing with even less power and dramatically improving the tone of the pickup, no longer being loaded down by the input impedance of a straight poweramp. Still, it is a credit that you have got the thing going and I am still intrigued as to what lead you to even try something like that loop...it is hardly obvious. Still, mysteries abound. I'd like you to try a "proper one" someday to see if you can benefit from the attributes of the original design and perhaps improve on it. I have not suggested that my formula is the only one, in particular there are many circuit strategies, but the "thin driver" and other principles were developed after many, many experiments. It was not developed to be conveniently attached to a pickup as in most of my latter work, but because of it's particular qualities. How the "thin driver" was applied to a guitar came later... The thin driver came from my miniaturized HEX drivers, trying to get similar results from a conventionally wound coil to make it more DIY friendly. My new designs are "ultra thin", trying to push the principles to the limits and so again are stepping outside the common DIY processes. Once a specialized machine is required to build something and the costs and skills required go up...that is when I feel that DIY is no longer appropriate. Once you step out of the "formula" then a whole other set of solutions and adaptions may need to be sought. People often have assumed that if they can't find the 0.2mm wire, they can try something else, but the experience is that while it may work "a bit" it will not perform properly in this design. On the other hand, I tried some dual coil designs with the same wire and I have not yet been convinced that this is optimum...again, stepping outside of the design leaves a lot of things open Anyway...time for sleep...later...pete PS...have recovered some switching files but they will have to wait a little longer before posting....get your logic hats handy for me...p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utopian isotope Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 (edited) Dimensions of magnet: length: 60 mm, width: 14,3 mm, and thickness: 5,5 mm. Coil thickness: about 4 mm Coil is wrapped directly around the magnet. I rounded the magnet's corners, so that it was easier to wound. With that amp, I use single 9v battery. It takes only a minimal amount of volume to produce feedback, so battery is enough for now. But I have planned to replace battery with mains transformer, for an extra headroom. Here in Finland we also have 50hz. Signal goes from guitar ---->stompbox EQ -----> amp. Preamp? What I had in mind was some sort of buffer to take the load from pickup. What leads me to that loop? Hard to say. First I tried to eliminate that squeal with magnets. Magnet tends to excite strings too much: no result. Resistor in series with driver: no result. Piece of steel between driver an pickup: no result. Iron does just the same: no result. So nothing magnetic fits between the driver and pickup. Because the driver uses strong electromagnetic force, that is the same force we can use to create physical "bridge" between pickup and driver, so that magnetic flux doesn't float too much anymore. Instead it flows from the driver---->strings--->pickup. Edited January 28, 2008 by utopian isotope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 What leads me to that loop? Hard to say. First I tried to eliminate that squeal with magnets. Magnet tends to excite strings too much: no result. Resistor in series with driver: no result. Piece of steel between driver an pickup: no result. Iron does just the same: no result. So nothing magnetic fits between the driver and pickup. Because the driver uses strong electromagnetic force, that is the same force we can use to create physical "bridge" between pickup and driver, so that magnetic flux doesn't float too much anymore. Instead it flows from the driver---->strings--->pickup. Interesting idea this loop of wire! (assuming it works and isn't just an unfortunate coincidence) I would like to suggest a different reason as to why/how it might work - fun of course, I'm just brainstorming Once you've removed the fizz caused by distortion in the driver signal and problems with earth wiring, One of the most likely suggestions as to the cause of the remaining interference noise between the driver and pickup is the idea of the pair acting as a parasitic transformer. The pickup has many orders of magnitude more turns than the driver, so when the two are close together, any voltage induced in the pickup by the parasitic transformer will be much larger than the system can cope with and will be heavily clipped. I wonder if this loop of wire, if twisted in the opposite direction to the driver can somehow cancel out some of this by creating an opposite polarity parasitic transformer ? It is only a single turn (or small number of turns), so its inductance will be much lower than the driver, but it is closer to the pickup and furthermore, it's turns ratio is significantly higher... its never going to be powerful enough to completely cancel out the driver, but maybe there is enough to have a noticeable impact on the quality ? ..................... hmm, looking at the picture again, the loop goes very close to the driver and the pickup... maybe the current induced in the loop by the driver is in turn inducing some cancellation current in the pickup ? This seems like the most obvious answer... if the polarity is opposite to the polarity of the current induced in the pickup by the magnetic field of the driver, then there should be some noticable cleaning up of the sound. So rather than being a transformer as described above, its really a way of passing a current from the driver to the pickup that is roughly equal and opposite to that produced by the interaction of their magnetic fields... The big difference in induction due to the very low number of turns and lack of a core is made up for by having the coil/loop physically very close to both driver and pickup (iirc, magnetic field strength drops off at the square of the distance) Of course, because it is only one (or very few) turns of wire, it will not have any significant impact on efficiency This seems like it could be a great breakthrough (assuming of course that it really works) Either way, it's great to have some new ideas injected into the discussion - thanks Mr Isotope cheers Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted January 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 (edited) WARNING THIS POST IS LONG AND CONTAINS TOO MANY PICS FOR ONE POST...IT HAD TO BE SEPARATED INTO TWO PARTS ON THE FLY... OK...I see, so the eq is being used as a preamp so that explains that. The "float" bit, I am not sure I understand. The intention is to separate the driver signal from the bridge pickup and the guitars signal...to limit or eliminate interaction; squeal and distortion. To me, building a bridge seems to imply that it is encouraging a controlled flow of signal between the driver and the pickup...but perhaps there is something else going on there...maybe it is bridging an inverted signal to the pickup and so canceling it out. Food for thought... {edit: I see col has jumped in before I finished my post and has had some similar thoughts as I was trying to express. It is interesting because, like so many things here, that even if it is a "happy coincidence" it spawns ideas of what could be....as I say food for thought...} Now...to leave that for a bit. This is yet another example of a single pickup experimental installation. This is not what I consider a practical completed instrument. Like so many, it provides a proof of concept, but not a practical realization. This serves an important part of development (exploring things like a "bridging loop") but perfectly illustrates my frustration and that of many who seek to modify or build a practical and attractive guitar. So many projects like this stop short of the perhaps least explored and vital component...installation. It has seemed assumed by many that if you are able to get some version or other of the device working, then it is a simple matter of "installing" it. There has been an almost universal ignorance or nonacceptance of some of the issues of neck and middle pickup isolation and the complexity posed by it. For me, the installation has and continues to be the biggest hurdle. So...at the moment, simplifying and codifying approaches to installation have been my entire focus. Building a better driver is of course of interest, as is other experimental work...but of what use is this if we don't have a means to install the thing if we were to get something "better". So...as promised...here are some ideas I have been working on. They are not checked, tested of verified at this point...that is why I am posting them because it is so easy to overlook something, particularly the internal connections within the selector switch. I encourage people to consider and critique them and if they feel them overcomplicated or redundant switching, I more than welcome a simplified or alternate proposal... SOME SWITCHING SCHEMES TO CONSIDER AND TO USE A CRITICAL EYE ON... Let's first look at what we are trying to achieve. As posted in an earlier post... Ok...the posted switch will work for simple 2 and three pickup guitars. Many guitars however, such as an Ibanex JEM, FAT strat (HSH, HH, SSH) models split the bridge pickup. Most with five way switches will combine the middle pickup with the bridge in some selection of the selector. So...the aim is to: - completely isolate the neck and middle coils from the circuit. - ensure that no switching within the selector shorts the bridge pickup or combines it with the isolated coils - select the bridge pickup regardless of the selector position - ensure that when selected it is in a consistent phase and series mode, regardless of selector - provide power to the circuit ---optionally...to be able to incorporate a phase switch in the pickup to activate the harmonic function rather than reversing the it with the driver leads (there are various reasons one might want to do that... The other thing is to reduce switch size and cost and to make installation easier and make a universal circuit design that does not "limit" the guitar...this was a basic tenant of the work I started here way back, the "sustainer" should be a transparent addition to a guitar rather than forcing changes and limitations to it. ok...so I presented then (previous page) this kind of passive switching as my present solution... This appears to be a sound solution to a three pickup standard 3xSC or non-split H/S/S configuration and remains passive. As easy as these things look when shown, it actually takes hours for me to come up with these ideas and a lot of bad ones...still there could be faults till tested though I am pretty confident with this as it is similar to my more recent actual installs. Here is another conundrum. This is for a real life installation in (slow) progress. I am making a super tele with a new driver in a small tele chrome covered neck pickup. The tele has a few obstacles to overcome and this one is a little unique. One of them is that, without the strat's handy trem cavity (or even modified jack socket cavity) and only a very tiny control cavity...where does the battery go, let alone the circuit! Well...for ease of access, the chrome control plate on a tele is pretty neat...it only requires two screws so that is where I intend to put the battery. On my guitar at least, I will be hiding the circuit under the bridge pickup. However, installing a 4pdt and dpdt switch is not practical...or at least pushing it and the mess of wires will make it difficult and the wiring vulnerable every time the battery needs to be replaced. Also...I have two very cool looking dpdt switches I want to use. So...look carefully at this passive approach for a two pickup on/off switch and tell me if you think this will work! Pay attention to if the selector in any position undermines the isolation required for this two pickup guitar.... N1 and 2 are the neck pickup leads…Ns1 and 2 the leads to the selector…C1x and C1y are the connections to the circuit, C1y shares a ground with the power which is how I use negative power switching to turn it on and save a switch. Both this and the last switch I am particularly proud of as they have a pretty logical and easy to understand layout. The last one though, I still have reservations and of course, nothing is "right" until tested. With the tele, I don't want to go too far till I know it works so would appreciate some input. --------------------------- Alright...so there are two passive systems for standard 2 and 3 pickup guitars. A problem exists in that if there is coil splitting or more complex switching or pickup arrangements, how do we operate it. Also, it limits the way the device is required to be handled...a 4pdt switch can be dear and prone to failure and, lets face it, only really comes in one format and is quite large, especially with all those wires attached to it. It is also very easy to get "wrong" and difficult to troubleshoot...let alone trying to solder it within a tight cavity. The kind of guitar I have in mind is a fat strat, S1 switched guitar or something like a PRS or Ibanez Jem which can have extensive splitting and stuff...let alone a heavily modified guitar. Or, perhaps you wish to do a strat but operate the device with push pull pots and so not drill or make the install obvious...what then? SEE NEXT POST FOR CONTINUATION OF THIS POST... Edited January 28, 2008 by psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted January 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 (edited) PART TWO OF ABOVE POST...EXPLORING THE POTENTIALS OF ELECTRONIC SWITCHING.... Ok...so I have been delving into electronic switching and the logic required to make a "universal" scheme that will work for these contingencies. This is my latest scenario... In this proposed scheme, I use two 4053 triple spdt switches or two chips as in the “stack” above. A dpdt turns it on, the harmonic control is switched also by control voltages. These switches could be used to switch even more complicated set ups if necessary and a dpdt used as a phase switch if desired. Either way, it would allow the use of push pull pots or simplified toggles to do complicated switching that the 4pdt wont do. Ok...I hope that is intelligible... This is not a practical circuit but an exploration of the logic. If correct, I have come some way towards enacting it in a clever and practical manner. There may still be problems with switch noise and such too, yet to be discovered. The biggest drawback if that the switch circuit requires power at all times so the guitar is never "off". Although the standby power is small, very small...if it were to loose power, the guitar would be dead. However, I fail to see at this stage a way in which such guitars or alternate switching is possible. To illustrate what such a circuit could offer, consider this... This is a 3-way, centre off mini dpdt switch. In both directions it is off but one way is normal sustain, the other is harmonics...that incorporates both switches into one tiny control switch. From a players point of view, perhaps not the best solution, but workable and simple in approach. The on/off/bypass functions are reduced to a DPDT so this can be performed by a push-pull pot as can the harmonic function which is even simpler, or use an even smaller spdt switch to activate it. Notice that in this scheme the phase reverse is done to the signal before the circuitry, instead of switching the driver leads. This leads to some other interesting future possibilities. Also, by giving electronic control over to the harmonic function, it opens the door to other signal conditioning before the circuitry and frees up to some extent the location of the circuit and the length of the EMI potential driver leads inside the guitar...also keeping in mind some future innovations not otherwise possible. It may be possible of course to operate the harmonic control as we have done with a dpdt switch which, is not an excessive proposition. This would leave two spst switches free and potentially these could be used for an even more complex guitar. The entire switching circuit may even be used for other purposes...essentially it would be a bank of 6 spdt switches. Alright...so, consider this with a critical eye and try and think of scenarios where it might not work (H/S/H)...or even if it will work in this scenario. Consider if you think you can provide the same functions in a passive way or solutions that wouldn't leave the guitar "dead" if power was to fail. If experienced in digital switching, would you anticipate switch noise...how could this be addressed with minimal parts. What other ways could the device be switched. How could such a switch be used in a guitar for other functions...if this a mega-super-switch? Sould I combine some acive buffering and such into the design since power is constant anyway... Any tips on how such a circuit should be realized in a logical and consise manner that is easy to wire up and install (as I say, I have some ideas on this, but I'd like a little input first)... Also...consider, that by utilizing electronic switching, some other interesting ideas come to the fore for future development and imagination. It would be really cool IMHO to have the whole device operated by a rotary encoder that replaces a knob and sweeps through both gain harmonic and other phase angle generated responses. I have one to play with with a push-push function plus 3 control outs that is much smaller than an average pot. Consider the implications of such a control interface with a PIC programmed chip that could sweep through a range of pickup selections and perhaps even user customized...the ultimate selector. It might be possible to "program in" selections as bridge and neck with the tone rolled off to a specific point on one pickup alone. Mounted sideways, it would not be hard for such a device with a little inginuity, to replace and look like a five way with the neck pickup at one extreme and the bridge at the other...and a whole host of combinations, user detirmined, in between in a kind of "sweep". Consider the implications of onboard CV switching...could such a device send CV signals (hi's and low's) to trigger outboard effects as well through say a stereo lead? Science fiction...perhaps a little ways off yet, but look at the variaxe...no visible pickups and a host of modeled sounds...this too is user-programable through a user interface...are my propositions now any more "science fiction" than that? Anyway...an exceptionally long post I hope will inject some new discussion and get towards some practical solutions and further explorations. Also, just a bit of the work that I have been doing down here to show a little of the direction my work on this is taking me...I am sorry that on some subjects I am reluctant to "share" but that is in part the nature of my new direction. The commercial thing though is in large part to offer the best of what the device can be and to fund and develop exactly these kinds of ideas that take inordinate amount of time energy and resources to pursue. Some of these ideas a re complex and perhaps not suitable for your average DIY'er, but once developed and packaged should make such things cheap and easy to use for a range of things including jump starting all manner of DIY projects and innovations. Anyway...enough to last and consider for a long time there...I hope it has been of interest and that if correct the earlier passive solutions will provide some immediate answers and insight for projects I know are actually being constructed. regards pete Edited January 28, 2008 by psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 (edited) So...look carefully at this passive approach for a two pickup on/off switch and tell me if you think this will work! Pay attention to if the selector in any position undermines the isolation required for this two pickup guitar.... Not sure that will work. In the "up" position I think the Neck pickup is floating with no ground reference - it'll buzz like a mofo. Edit: double-checked it and I think it's right actually. Nothing to see here... PART TWO OF ABOVE POST...EXPLORING THE POTENTIALS OF ELECTRONIC SWITCHING.... : Ok...so I have been delving into electronic switching and the logic required to make a "universal" scheme that will work for these contingencies. This is my latest scenario... Haha! You've come up with something almost identical to me in the last half hour Although mine is intended more of an "anything" switching scheme. It pretty much sits inline with the pickup cables before any of the coil taps and pickup switching. I've shown 3 humbucker pickups, but really they could be any combination of pickups - SSS, HSS, HSH, SHH, HH, HS, SS etc...just make the appropriate connections and leave out the ones you don't want. Using CMOS switching it could be done with 3x 4053's. This is not a practical circuit but an exploration of the logic. I think it's practical provided you have the space inside a guitar to fit it all in, and I think that will be a fairly big hurdle to overcome in any practical realisation of the sustainer as a retrofit kit, be it passive or active switched, one pickup or three - not everyone's guitars are blessed with a generous control cavity. The biggest drawback if that the switch circuit requires power at all times so the guitar is never "off". Although the standby power is small, very small...if it were to loose power, the guitar would be dead. However, I fail to see at this stage a way in which such guitars or alternate switching is possible. I still don't see that as a problem - EMG's will go dead if the battery dies, basses with active pickups or preamps will go dead if the battery dies, Boss floor pedals will go dead if the battery dies. As long as the end user knows they have to check the battery before they hit the stage I don't see it as being an issue any more so than the other examples I've just given. Consider the implications of such a control interface with a PIC programmed chip that could sweep through a range of pickup selections and perhaps even user customized...the ultimate selector. It might be possible to "program in" selections as bridge and neck with the tone rolled off to a specific point on one pickup alone. Mounted sideways, it would not be hard for such a device with a little inginuity, to replace and look like a five way with the neck pickup at one extreme and the bridge at the other...and a whole host of combinations, user detirmined, in between in a kind of "sweep". Possibly, although you'd need to find a suitable rugged-ised solution for the control knob/button/switch - us guitarists are notoriously rough with our gear! Or at least an option that could easily, cheaply and quickly replace a broken one. Consider the implications of onboard CV switching...could such a device send CV signals (hi's and low's) to trigger outboard effects as well through say a stereo lead? Yes, it could do it, but perhaps carting-before-the-horse a little bit now Edited January 29, 2008 by curtisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utopian isotope Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 @ psw: I meant that the loop "binds" or limits driver's magnetic flux, and prevents its affection to PU. Because that loop is between driver an PU, it allows the driver to concentrate magnetic force on strings, instead of PU. @col: You just might be on the right track about that loop thing.. somehow your text makes sense to me. In practice it is simple, but in theory it is far beyond my knowledge. Maybe the pickup "sees" drivers magnetic field as a parasitic element? And the loop works as a sink or drain that absorbs most of the parasitic forces? ---------------------------------------------------- Lot of discussion here about that switching thing.. got stuck when reading it..almost forgot that loop thing. Some day, when I get that strat together, I'll read whole story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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