col Posted September 23, 2007 Report Share Posted September 23, 2007 Great work guys...good to have you back in the discussion Curtis and Col, you seem to be making some progress in comprehending these things. I of course, am having trouble with the practical comprehension but am sure that there are implications for my design... Yep, its good to have curtisa back, I hope he can be a more regular contributer to the thread again - good to have someone to bounce ideas off and to argue with I'm not completely sure about the last "piece of the puzzle". The high pass effect is certainly an issue, however, I'm not sure its as simple as treating the driver as a resistor and inductor in series - that works for some calculations, but for this one, it may be that I'm being too simplistic and that the nature of the relationship is more complex in this instance. Depends what you mean by "stray EMI". In one respect, the driver only works because of 'stray' EMI, any flux that project away from the coil could be considered 'stray', and without that the driver would not work at all. By "stray"...I mean EMI inducing flux...EMI that strays from the driving area and into the pickup/signal of the guitar itself. The kind of thing the cage addresses. All flux doesn't induce the EMI it is the EMI (for our purposes). If the magnetic circuit is not completely enclosed (is that even possible?) then some flux will get to the pickup even if it is in another room, or on the moon... So I guess what you are talking about as 'stray flux' is any flux generated that is over and above what is needed to drive the strings in a satisfactory manner ? If that is the case, then its not easy to say if any changes generate more stray flux - first we need to specify how much flux is required over what area! Only then can we quantify 'stray flux'. words like 'throw' and 'range' are really pretty meaningless - what I mean is that the wider driver has a field that is less intense but covers a larger area. By "throw"...I am referring to the amount of upward thrust upon the string. One of my concerns with the HB style drivers is that it did not seem to have as much "throw" for instance. "range"...I don't think I used that term "reach"...I assume you mean area of influence on the string...width of aperture I guess. While my coils are thin and flat...at 14mm in total, I wouldn't regard this as wide, but in ratio to it's thickness, it is "thin" It was me who used the term 'range', but I still think it and the others mentioned are too fuzzy and imprecise to be useful. Without some more accurate definition they just cause confusion through ambiguity. There seems to be a suggestion that a slightly lower resistance, say 7 ohm, could be advantageous. Is this so? It 'could' be, but on the other hand, it may be disadvantageous ! There are so many factors that no one value for DC resistance is better or worse - what's important is that the impedance stays within the range that allows the amp to work most efficiently and that the frequency response is adjusted as close as possible to an ideal one for our purposes (this may not be a flat response, physical issues such as action and string guages may mean some curve or other gives best overall functionality) It is likely that for a basic LM386 circuit feeding a single core driver using and a 0.2mm wire guage, a DC resistance of 7ohm will be better than a dc resistance of > 8ohm (as soon as you start adding in extra coils to the circuit or change the coil specs, you have to recalculate) I have a mind to do some experiments with an "active shield" and a slight drop in resistance of the main driver coil may well allow for a parallel coil of thinner wire to help in containing the "stray" fields. The new noiseless design has some interesting possibilities in this regard. Sounds dubious to me - but I'd be interested in modeling the layout in femm to get a rough idea of what would happen. cheers Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted September 23, 2007 Report Share Posted September 23, 2007 (edited) Hi again, psw: i've just been reading up on the last 4 weeks worth of posts, i haven't read all of it yet but i was just wondering if you were still planning to sell your kits on ebay because i would happily pay 80 AUD + postage anyday so long as you'd ship to the UK. Just thought id throw that out there. Edit: oh it appears you are, i'll just sit tight. Edited September 23, 2007 by Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolsascha Posted September 23, 2007 Report Share Posted September 23, 2007 Hello, i need help.. I dont want spend 130€ on an Ebow and either 300€ on an Substainer set.. So I want to know, how can I build up my self one of them??? Where is a real STEP BY STEP tutorial?? Pleas help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted September 23, 2007 Report Share Posted September 23, 2007 Hello, i need help.. I dont want spend 130€ on an Ebow and either 300€ on an Substainer set.. So I want to know, how can I build up my self one of them??? Where is a real STEP BY STEP tutorial?? Pleas help! This is the ideas thread, the nearest you will get to a tutorial is in the How To Make A Guitar Sustainer System, Tutorial thread. Most of the stuff under discussion recently won't make it to any kind of tutorial for a while if at all. As they say at Grolsch "Stooop, it's not ready yet!" If you're willing to experiment and be creative with the resources that are available to you, then get stuck in and have some fun. Otherwise, I think it would be wise to buy one of the commercial units. cheers Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted September 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2007 Hi to the new people...still working hard on the "product"...the coils are coming along well, making one a day at the moment to get the technique and equipment down and to finalize the quality of this important component. The circuit is complete but will require some independent testing so is a little ways off yet... Thanks Col for replying so promptly...people should check out the much shorter threads linked at the end of my posts...see below... +++ Col...are you familiar with the "active shield" idea? I think it is even mentioned in one of the patents. The idea is to wrap the driving coil in a reverse wound outer layer to contain EMI in proportion to the EMI produced. The dual coil idea is an example of this kind of thing. I was thinking...I could lower the drive resistance to 7 ohms and then reverse wind for the last bit making a containing coil to help limit EMI and to aid in the prevention of backlash from stored energy (ie the "pop")...it might even aid to make it a little faster (ie loose it's polarity and reverse it, keeping the driver's response more in sync with the signal and the vibration of the string...the "fast driver" idea I keep on about )... Of course, it may have a detracting influence on the device...more than likely. While a cage may control the passive permanent magnetic field and keep it focused, I am not sure that it will respond, because of this passivity, to the fluctuations of the electromagnet...of course it is connected to the core, but ....err... I don't know, it was an idea. I don't know how you would model such an idea either... I had thought of using thinner wire, but the easiest would be to have this outer layer within the same winding reversed. Having such a low number of turns in the outer layer and what it would do to the outer layers of the inner coil is a matter of conjecture...I really am not sure and hold as many reservations about the idea as anyone. It would be easy enough to do, but difficult to tell in practical experiments if it was of benefit or hindrance. Open to opinion and modeling examples. Otherwise, I am "cooking" a version of the coil in which the driver wires will be protected by a flat "ribbon" to get past the cover and prevent breaking and binding. These coils are taking 24 hours to cure but are looking promising. The last one was a little overly long (1mm) and I will have to watch tension because the pressing of the sides can push out the ends. The slow cure is helping though, as it allows some slippage of the coil to settle. Changes to the pressing properties and very low viscosity epoxy allows for this to occur and once cured most of the internal tensions that threaten a "banana" effect are released and less reliance on the epoxies strength to hold it all together is required. I am still working on the wires exiting together from the middle of one side (directly above an SC's wire attaching part of the base plate). Better get some sleep...but i have bought a camera now so people can expect some pretty pics in the near future and hopefully, it wont be too much longer till I release one of these things for testing purposes. see ya... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted September 24, 2007 Report Share Posted September 24, 2007 Col...are you familiar with the "active shield" idea? I think it is even mentioned in one of the patents. The idea is to wrap the driving coil in a reverse wound outer layer to contain EMI in proportion to the EMI produced. The dual coil idea is an example of this kind of thing. I do remember the basic idea. I don't think it's the same thing as the dual core driver - the fact that the two coils share exactly the same section of the same core makes a big difference IMO. I was thinking...I could lower the drive resistance to 7 ohms and then reverse wind for the last bit making a containing coil to help limit EMI and to aid in the prevention of backlash from stored energy (ie the "pop")...it might even aid to make it a little faster (ie loose it's polarity and reverse it, keeping the driver's response more in sync with the signal and the vibration of the string...the "fast driver" idea I keep on about )... 7ohm wound 1 way + 1 ohm wound the other way is still 8ohm !... so if 7ohm is better(not saying it is), then you would want 6 + 1 ! (As the frequency gets to the point where the reactance takes over as the dominant part of the impedance, then it will make a difference, but for your driver that won't be very significant). The reverse coil will help to reduce the pop, but not enough to make it acceptable. I think that the pop reduction will be directly proportional to the drive efficiency reduction! It will make it slightly 'faster' (misnomer) if it reduces the inductance - but there are more efficient ways of reducing the inductance. Of course, it may have a detracting influence on the device...more than likely. While a cage may control the passive permanent magnetic field and keep it focused, I am not sure that it will respond, because of this passivity, to the fluctuations of the electromagnet...of course it is connected to the core, but ....err... I don't know, it was an idea. I don't know how you would model such an idea either... 'cage' is yet another misnomer - the 'cage' is just part of the core. The Flux is much more concentrated in the core - this means that the field doesn't spread horizontally so much, just upwards. You may be correct that the alternating field will not be quite as well contained - possibly due to the hysteresis of the core material... I'm not at that stage yet However, the field will still be considerably more focussed than without the 'cage' part of the core. I had thought of using thinner wire, but the easiest would be to have this outer layer within the same winding reversed. Having such a low number of turns in the outer layer and what it would do to the outer layers of the inner coil is a matter of conjecture...I really am not sure and hold as many reservations about the idea as anyone. It would be easy enough to do, but difficult to tell in practical experiments if it was of benefit or hindrance. Open to opinion and modeling examples. My opinion is that it won't do what you want it to do - maybe with some other layout and some extra 'iron' in there somewhere, but not as you describe it. I'll have a go at a femm model anyway Otherwise, I am "cooking" a version of the coil in which the driver wires will be protected by a flat "ribbon" groovy - I think ribbon makes much sense if its doable. Better get some sleep...but i have bought a camera now so people can expect some pretty pics in the near future and hopefully, it wont be too much longer till I release one of these things for testing purposes. Excellent news - /me looks forward to a pic blizzard from psw cheers Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted September 28, 2007 Report Share Posted September 28, 2007 Sorry-- haven't been responding lately. I am very busy with school and my new 5150 Combo (something in the tubes got damaged during shipping.... but wow is that amp a beast!) But I just wanted to let you all know that I have been keeping up with the reading. And that I am looking forward to pics in the near future, and a PSW S***** Kit guitar in the somewhat far future! -MRJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted September 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2007 Hi guys... It seems to have been a bit quiet, I have still been winding coils everyday trying to perfect the method and equipment...it's coming along. School holidays so have had the kids for the first week but should have a bit of free time this next week to update on the progress and show a few pics. I seem to be able to get the coil down to the 1mm spec more consistently but occasionally the coil becomes slightly too long. For a standard fender like the original and the noiseless, this has to be 66mm. With a 57mm core, this does not leave a lot of room. The longer core though does have the benefit of making each turn that much longer so it reaches the required resistance sooner. As for the driver leads...have lately settled on a solution where the leads come from the side in a flat ribbon to the bottom of the pickup before attaching to the leads proper. This seems to work even with these noiseless pups which have very little room, especially around the magnets and the cover is thinner and a little brittle so you wouldn't be wanting to force anything. I am looking at totally "hot rodding" this guitar with a few new parts besides these pickups. How to implement the sustainer discretely is still up in the air. I can use the super-switch selector but have been trying to obtain a fender S-1 switch which would be ideal. Ebay has them but they are going for incredible prices plus you need the special knobs for it. An alternative is that I have push-pull pots and perhaps if I need to have a 4pdt switch I could gang two of these together on the back of one pot...hmmm Anyway...have had to try out a lot of different epoxy formulas which hasn't been cheap, but seem to have found an appropriate mix...it's the technique that is tricky. Tension is a problem. It is not enough to simmply squeeze it to size...as the sides are clamped the ends are pushed out. I have had to build yet another jig (this is number ten I think) making it more accurate and altering the feed aperture of the bobbin. The jig is the key to making these things work as a few imperfections in the coil winding can add a mm to the coil and make it useless for the application. The coils are improving but the tension has caused some mishaps with the wire breaking amongst other things and with epoxy winding, this can be tricky to get off and start again. Needless to say I am going through a fair bit of wire in the process... back later... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted September 29, 2007 Report Share Posted September 29, 2007 Anyway...have had to try out a lot of different epoxy formulas which hasn't been cheap, but seem to have found an appropriate mix...it's the technique that is tricky. Tension is a problem. It is not enough to simmply squeeze it to size...as the sides are clamped the ends are pushed out. Yep, you need a better tensioning device! One that can counteract the cam effect of the extruded coil shape. I haven't done the sums to see if it gives you a smooth tension, or just a less bumpy one. I have an idea that may have some value - not too difficult to set up (depending on the current design of course) I'll have to do a drawing to explain it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted September 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2007 Thanks Col... The winder design is simple but very adaptable. There is a wooden plate behind the spinning bobbin with a bar with wire guides to ensure the wire can't overshoot the sides of the bobbin...it also holds the reed switch for the counter. Plenty of room to add tensioning type devices, but haven't thought of anything... You can get a neat coil from it and if just right, can be squeezed on the sides and with the correct epoxy...the windings seem to settle down to shape....but it still isn't an easy one shot comercially viable process! pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted September 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2007 Getting there on the coil... Have developed a way of applying the epoxy thinly onto the wire as it threads into the bobbin...this is different from previous methods where the glue is applied to the bobbin and sees the wire squeeze out the glue as it winds. I was also able to combine this method with a swiveling applicator that moves with the elongated coil varying tension a little. I may be able to apply a little spring loading to this to hone it even more. As it is it is making a god coil though. It has highlighted another niggle. The inner wire needs to exit the outside of the coil and so crosses all the other windings at some point. The result is that this reduces the winding room by one turn on that side and is particularly noticeable on the end that comes after this point...creates a slightly larger diameter and looser windings. In a quest to make the coil very thin and uniform within the specifications, this has resulted in a few coils a little wider than the spec (say 1mm). I could solve the problem by reducing the core length a little, but then it won't fit those overly long pickup types...hmmm I am considering making a groove to allow the windings free passage over the crossover point...any other ideas? pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Hey Pete, I did a couple of (very) quick sketches to explain my tension evening idea. It is not ideal - its just the first basic idea. The ideal cam for evening the tension will not be the same shape as the drivere but offset 90º as in these sketches, but I haven't got that far yet The idea is that as the driver bobbin gets to the point where tension is lowest, the cam (between the felt tensioner and the bobbin) is providing maximum tension, and conversely, when the normal bobbin tension is at maximum, the intermediate cam should be at its minimum position. you would need to have a 1:1 gearing connection of a belt drive to keep the cam in sync with the bobbin. does this make any sense ? in the diagram, the two pics on the left show the maximum and minimum tension positions, and the ones on the right are there to demonstrate how placing a cam between the tensioner and the bobbin can possible even things out somewhat. Just had an idea... The 90º offset is not ideal because as it lifts the wire so it changes the minimum tension point on the bobbin... Maybe putting a wire guide between the cam and the bobbin to bring the wire back down will fix that... like a graphite lined hoop from a fishing rod or something... yes, that should work.. Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Heres another sketch - this time with the guide between the cam and the bobbin. in a more advanced design, it should be possible to make the cam move in and out to provide even winding for a larger coil e.g. for a pickup... that way it would serve 2 purposes. Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Thanks col...that does make sense, but very difficult to achieve...it may easily go out of sync and would be hard to do the transverse function on bigger coils. I seem to have come up with a solution of my own that is working. After the tension device the wire goes to the bobbin via a glue pad on a swivel that rocks backwards and forwards on a spring (rubber band) to provide tension to the sides and give on the ends. Also, it applies the glue allowing me to take the gloves off and use my hands more to adjust tension as I go. I also beefed up the jig again...there is a lot of pressure in these coils! The last couple of coils have been really good...a little thinner than 1mm even and very even in shape and winding pattern. They are coming out about 7.2 ohms when wound to spec, so it remains to be seen if this is detrimental or an improvement. Part of the solution was the grooves to allow the windings to get past the crossover wire without reducing the winding space at that point. Also, I have been able to use more tension with this method as the spring tensioner will release pressure before the wire breaks...the epoxy provides some lubrication too! This means I can wind coils that are virtually the right spec without the excessive pressure to form them after winding...just enough to keep them in shape. I have also solved the driver lead exit problem with a secure ribbon type effect that is very thin and comes out directly above the pickups wire attachment plate. I have had to spend quite a bit testing various epoxies, but have got something really good that can also have curing time adjusted. I also made an improved core and side clamping mechanism. What I am planning to do next is to try and rout out a jig plate with the core an integral part of it. This should cut down on machining and metal parts and allow quite a few to be made of the same design. This will allow the coils to be made in batches. It will also save on glue. The coils require two epoxy stages, one in the winding to hold it's shape, and an outer coating to ensure it is neat and strong and the driver leads are protected. The plan is to do a batch of winding and then coat the previous winds with the left over mix. I want to limit my exposure as there is far to much glue inhalation involved. I may in fact make a mold to make an absolutely consistent "product" over just brushing on the final coat. Anyway...the camera is great, even takes movies...but have yet to get a chance to do much including loading the software...hopefully soon I will show you what has come out of all this so far. Better get on to my own installation project too, to iron out the problems before it gets too far down the track. later ... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 (edited) Thanks col...that does make sense, but very difficult to achieve...it may easily go out of sync and would be hard to do the transverse function on bigger coils. The difficulty in achieving depends a lot on your existing jig - thats why I wanted more details... The transverse function is not relevant to this discussion - its just a possible extra for a really fancy device. I seem to have come up with a solution of my own that is working. After the tension device the wire goes to the bobbin via a glue pad on a swivel that rocks backwards and forwards on a spring (rubber band) to provide tension to the sides and give on the ends. Also, it applies the glue allowing me to take the gloves off and use my hands more to adjust tension as I go. I also beefed up the jig again...there is a lot of pressure in these coils! Yes, I thought about using a spring mechanism - that would help for sure, but it can never give you a completely steady tension the way a cam based system could, and a spring(or elastic) setup has its own problems related to oscillation and damping... Using a belt drive as in my sketch would make synchronisation tricky, but I would be more inclined to use toothed gears or a chain drive ripped from some other machine - that would prevent any synchro drift easily. Anyhow, it doesn't matter. If your current setup works well enough then you don't need a better one col Edited October 2, 2007 by col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarlvr Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 First time I am posting questions on here, So I hope I am doing this right. I found a question by 'ZoSo Spencer' asking if the sustainer driver coil could be used as a guitar pickup when not in sustainer mode, where PSW referenced the pictures of the coil he had wound. My understanding of the Fernandes sustainer was that the sustainer driver coil was a pickup when not in sustainer mode. so can't a pickup just be switched in & out of being sustainer/pickup? Also, the Sustainers I have seen us the neck coil as the S-driver. But couldn't a driver in the middle position act as a sustainer while the neck pickup OR Bridge pickup be used (for variety of sounds) on a 3-pickup guitar (ex. Strat)? In a similar vein, If using a 2 humbucker guitar, would it be possible to split the neck Pup into a single coil Pup & single coil driver, again giving the ability to switch between bridge & Neck for sound variety while using the sustainer? I have been dreaming for the last 2 years of using my unused pickups as sustainers if I found a cheap (and SMALL) preamp to use or build to drive the sustainer coil. am I going to need to wind a coil myself, or can I us my spare Pups? Thanks. Hi guys... It seems to have been a bit quiet, I have still been winding coils everyday trying to perfect the method and equipment...it's coming along. School holidays so have had the kids for the first week but should have a bit of free time this next week to update on the progress and show a few pics. I seem to be able to get the coil down to the 1mm spec more consistently but occasionally the coil becomes slightly too long. For a standard fender like the original and the noiseless, this has to be 66mm. With a 57mm core, this does not leave a lot of room. The longer core though does have the benefit of making each turn that much longer so it reaches the required resistance sooner. As for the driver leads...have lately settled on a solution where the leads come from the side in a flat ribbon to the bottom of the pickup before attaching to the leads proper. This seems to work even with these noiseless pups which have very little room, especially around the magnets and the cover is thinner and a little brittle so you wouldn't be wanting to force anything. I am looking at totally "hot rodding" this guitar with a few new parts besides these pickups. How to implement the sustainer discretely is still up in the air. I can use the super-switch selector but have been trying to obtain a fender S-1 switch which would be ideal. Ebay has them but they are going for incredible prices plus you need the special knobs for it. An alternative is that I have push-pull pots and perhaps if I need to have a 4pdt switch I could gang two of these together on the back of one pot...hmmm Anyway...have had to try out a lot of different epoxy formulas which hasn't been cheap, but seem to have found an appropriate mix...it's the technique that is tricky. Tension is a problem. It is not enough to simmply squeeze it to size...as the sides are clamped the ends are pushed out. I have had to build yet another jig (this is number ten I think) making it more accurate and altering the feed aperture of the bobbin. The jig is the key to making these things work as a few imperfections in the coil winding can add a mm to the coil and make it useless for the application. The coils are improving but the tension has caused some mishaps with the wire breaking amongst other things and with epoxy winding, this can be tricky to get off and start again. Needless to say I am going through a fair bit of wire in the process... back later... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 Welcome guitarlvr Am a little preoccupied by other things at the moment but will reply a bit more fully later...others may like to chip in ! My understanding of the Fernandes sustainer was that the sustainer driver coil was a pickup when not in sustainer mode. so can't a pickup just be switched in & out of being sustainer/pickup? Fernandes and Sustainiac systems both allow the use of the driver as a pickup...but it is active and the system wont work when the battery is flat. With my approach, the pickups are passive and the guitar only consumes power when actually in sustain mode. My new developments will allow no-mod choice of pickup if all goes well. Also, the Sustainers I have seen us the neck coil as the S-driver. But couldn't a driver in the middle position act as a sustainer while the neck pickup OR Bridge pickup be used (for variety of sounds) on a 3-pickup guitar (ex. Strat)? Well. this has been a dream for some time, but there are practical limitations. Also, recently I went full on with a mid driver, and to the extent that it worked, the benefits gained were not all that great. In a similar vein, If using a 2 humbucker guitar, would it be possible to split the neck Pup into a single coil Pup & single coil driver, again giving the ability to switch between bridge & Neck for sound variety while using the sustainer? No... The reason for the neck driver, bridge pickup operation is technical. Think of the driver as a speaker (coil) and the strings the cone or moving part of the device. Now, think of the driving pickup as a microphone. You would not expect anything worthwhile to come from sticking a mic right up to a speaker...the same effect is true with this. The neck/bridge driver pickup is to create enough space to avoid this happening, even then it is a fine balance. A mid driver will work but the driver would need to be pretty sophisticated and you would loose the middle pickup, requiring a complete rewire of the guitar anyway. I also found the driver to get in the way of picking as it will need to be very close to the strings to be effective. I am now putting all my development into a passive pickup adapter kit. This is much like my sustainer strat prototype in operation but with far less modifications required. On this front, I am preparing for a major refit of my main guitar with new pickups, tuners and other parts as well as the new sustainer system. On the development front...I seem to be getting some good coils of about 7 ohms at lass than 1mm thick. Having worked out a method, I am now working on a new jig...in fact I am making a jig to make these jigs so that I can make quite a few at a time. I will be attempting to use a router to machine plastic to incorporate the bobbins and core as well as the clamping. The spindle part is transferable to each assembly after winding. Once the jig is made to accurately replicate these components, I hope to be able to make as many as is required to make batches in a commercially viable cost efficient manner. As I say though, not a lot of time...photos will be coming soon... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insaner Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Hi there! I've come across this thread many times before when when the idea of making a sustainer sounded good. Never happened. But now I'm ready. I figured, if you can hold your guitar against you amp while its loud enough to get sustain, why not attach an amp to the guitar. I'm sure people have tried this but anyways, I went to Dick Smith's looking for parts for a small 1 watt amp i was going to make, however they have (at least my local one) a serious lack of anything/everything so i ended up buying a 1/2 watt amp kit based on the LM386. I hacked open an old speaker box for a speaker and rigged it up to the amp and the pickups, i had the guitar lying down and the speaker just sitting on the top. And I got some of what I was looking for (infinite sustain). i tried a few different setups, but the best was simply taping the speaker to the guitar (with the cone facing out). only some notes would sustain (maybe you need woofers, tweeters and mid range speakers lol) but it was still enough to excite me. Before knowing anything about about electromagnetic sustainers other than electromagnet vibrates strings, i tried using a pickup as the driver with no success. so then i re wound it with heavier wire (somewhere around 20gauge - the only wire i have now) it would "sustain" the strings a bit but did some weird harmonic-y stuff and then died. *shrugs* Help Please? I would like to try and make a better acoustic style sustainer. Many people mention removing the cone from a speaker, but im not sure what to do after that? Anyone know how the Sustainiac Model C works? other than the companies explanation but without telling me to look at the patent. I have, and i cant make any sense of it. Anyway, i want to try and make an electromagnetic sustainer aswell... but I am having extreme difficulty finding wire. DSE used to carry it. suddenly they dont??? whats wrong with magnet wire? its all 'limited stock' on the website too. the next idea was a jaycar stockist about a km away. they dont stock it. Other than those ones, the only thing i can find is huge bulk amounts from the US on the internet. To anyone stuck making an amp the DSE amp kit is pretty good (only aussie though) im sure radio shack would carry something similar. Cheers, Quinn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 Before knowing anything about about electromagnetic sustainers other than electromagnet vibrates strings, i tried using a pickup as the driver with no success. so then i re wound it with heavier wire (somewhere around 20gauge - the only wire i have now) it would "sustain" the strings a bit but did some weird harmonic-y stuff and then died. *shrugs* Help Please? At this stage, the only proven versions use wire that is 0.2mm not sure what '20gauge'. 32 AWG or 34 SWG are the two closest gauges closest as far as I can tell. I have suggested that with some more complex impedance calculation and a slight alteration to the circuit, we would be better to use thicker wire, but at this stage, that idea is unproven. Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 Welcome quinn/insaner... Maybe that would be a cool name for the device Ok...I did a bit of work on "acoustic" sustainers as well. Generally you need a lot more power than the LM386 to vibrate the physical guitar. Generally, you vibrate the neck from the headstock with the model C. The transducer is really just like a speaker. A very good approximation can be done with this studio trick. Hold the headstock against the speaker baffle (not the grill) of the amp, the speakers physical vibration will be transfered to the neck and so vibrate the strings. Most will not want the extra wiring up to the top of the neck and a 5watt amp or so on the floor to achieve the effect. It also makes a bit of noise in doing so and of course the whole neck vibrates which you can feel. In my work, I tried to approach it by trying to shake the tremolo bridge in a strat, but even with careful placement there is EMI. The idea of cutting the speaker cone out, is to limit the sound and just get the vibration happening. I used small speakers, cut the cone out carefully making sure you don't cut the fragile wires attached to the cone (you will have to leave some paper on), then you will need to glue a small coin or washer to the centre of the cone...you can cut away some of the speaker frame if you want to make it smaller. As you can imagine, a device like this is going to give off quite a bit of buzz and be pushed pretty hard to physically shake the whole guitar! The magnetic sustainer is so much easier. With this device, you are only trying to vibrate the strings...and these are already moving...so you don't need as much power. I am in Australia too (Melbourne) and the kit you are talking about was used by me for a long time. It is an exact copy of the LM386 data sheet circuit and was published in Silicon Chip Magazine as the Champ. It is widely available for about A$10 now. Unfortunately, it will load down the guitar so will need a preamp. There is another kit the preCHAMP available too which can work and probably better than the ruby...but a fair bit bigger. It still wont have the power to shake the whole guitar, but it would drive a magnetic driver if properly made. I have noticed that DSE don't seem to be stocking the small rolls of 0.2mm wire anymore . The small roll made about 3 drivers or so and was ideal but you do need the 0.2mm. I am using a huge reel of industrial wire now but that was about A$90 and not easy to find! Before knowing anything about about electromagnetic sustainers other than electromagnet vibrates strings, i tried using a pickup as the driver with no success. so then i re wound it with heavier wire (somewhere around 20gauge - the only wire i have now) it would "sustain" the strings a bit but did some weird harmonic-y stuff and then died. *shrugs* A pickup won't work and the design I put forward is pretty specific in the specs, especially the wire gauge and impedance as well as the shape of the coil. You can get some results out of the experiments that you are trying, I went through all of that stuff, but it takes a bit to come up with the "formula" that balances all the requirements to get the thing really working. To get you and others up to speed, I am working on a commercial unit based on the ideas explored in the thread, and I am keeping it a little close at the moment while I get the thing sorted. I seem to have the coils under control and a circuit and I hope to have some out to the testers ASAP. I am waiting for parts for my Strat Project so I can do the whole string change with the tuners, pickups and everything, all at once. The concept is a device that can convert a single coil neck pickup into a driver/pickup with appropriate switching and a much improved but very compact circuit. I really need to get the thing fully integrated into my own guitar before I push the thing too far and iron out any problems. Have been very busy though, so excuse my absence and thanks col for replying... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBF Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 What are the dimensions of the core used and rough dimension an material of the bobbin. I can get pretty much any type of steel or material for either one. Hi guys, here's the first pics of the Dual Rail Humbucker i've made: And Its based on Juán's design from page 178, two 13.5 ohm coils, side-by-side, wired in parallel (first DPDT switch works serial/parallel). I must say the first signs are very good, in parallel mode, it runs in the neck position with the Ruby/Fet on full power siliently, thats a first for me (not sure about you guys), but also works well at the same gain level as all my previous drivers (easily equal to them at similiar levels), and as importantly, it works in the middle position at the same level of gain without interfearence. I must say it was abit annoying to build, i built the coils around a 2mm steel core (the thinnest i can find atm), and the coils just about take the 4mm i allowed for them (2mm either side of the core), but its a tight fit. I finished winding my stacked HB version of the above a couple of hours ago, so i'll be able to see how both designs compair soon enough, but im very impressed the Dual Rail design so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insaner Posted October 10, 2007 Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 Thanks for the replies col and psw. psw - can i be a tester? pretty please? i can represent the general Australian market? lol. also, feel free to use that name... haha i havent done anything new yet... (this is for an electro acoustic driver) but what about a small motor with an odd weight (not centered) on the shaft (right word? the bit that spins.) similar to the 'rumble motors' that video game controllers use - for those that are familiar with them... how would you go about powering such a thing? could you make it vibrate at the right frequency? i would think it would make a much more powerful vibration than a speaker? the idea originally was to make a rotary "subwoofer" to mount in a couch or something. it would vibrate at a much lower frequency than most subs or what is audible by the human ear (much bigger of course) anyway, thats a bit off topic... "Unfortunately, it will load down the guitar so will need a preamp." .... What? lol what does loading the guitar down mean/do? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 the idea originally was to make a rotary "subwoofer" to mount in a couch or something. it would vibrate at a much lower frequency than most subs or what is audible by the human ear (much bigger of course) anyway, thats a bit off topic... That sounds interesting...not sure that I would want to sit on a thumping great sub, but hey...what ever... I'm getting a new amp and will be using a 15" bass reflex extension cabinet that I used to use in my long past band days along with a 12" so I may soon be getting a similar sensation... Anywhooo... what about a small motor with an odd weight (not centered) on the shaft You know...we seem to think a like...but a few years behind me...hahaha I actually did try this and was looking into the vibration motors from mobile phones to try and mount into a tremolo block to try and shake the strings via the bridge... Actually, it is a really cool experiment. That little amp of yours will put out a bit of power...connect that to a little stock motor and see what happens when you play... The amp is putting out an AC voltage so the motor will spin back and forth at the frequency of the strings vibration. However...every time it changes direction, it has to fight the inertia as well as the stored energy in the core and reverse direction. The higher the note, the quicker this will have to occur. In truth, it can never react as fast as the string and very well illustrates the "phase problem" and the principle of the fast driver. Another cool thing is to attach an LED...this will attempt to flash on the positive cycles...mostly it will appear constantly on because the string will be vibrating pretty quick... "Unfortunately, it will load down the guitar so will need a preamp." .... What? lol tongue.gif what does loading the guitar down mean/do? Most have tried the fetzer/ruby amp. The fetzer is a simple preamp from runoffgrove.com...you could use this bit with the DSE circuit you have to address this problem. I may leave this to Col or someone to address as I am out of time and can't speak with as much authority...it is about impedance mis-matching. The lm386 circuit is fine amping a line out or ipod or something...this is preamped. To share the output of the pickup between the guitar amp and the driver amp will destroy the tone and such the power out of both. Welcome JBF What are the dimensions of the core used and rough dimension an material of the bobbin. I can get pretty much any type of steel or material for either one. I don't know if Avalon still looks in, but thin steel (perhaps 1mm thick) for the cores. The bobbins are plastic. Generally, the "blade" is a little wider than the width of the string spread (say 55mm). The coil is pretty thin...2-3mm as I recall for that design and most others. Good luck with that...stay in touch...pete oh... psw - can i be a tester? pretty please? Well I have three in line for the initial testing, if that works you may buy one The logistics of making it a commercial proposition is pretty great and even installing it without it having being tested may be problematic...better to wait till everything is ironed out...still working on it. In fact, my guitar rebuild is underway, though still awaiting some more parts. In typical style however, this guitar is being completely hot rodded so a lot of the mods are not really sustainer related. So far, got new neck and middle pickups and awaiting new bridge HB. I have the guitar in pieces at the moment but have replaced the tuners with locking units and roller trees. I am looking into the whole wiring thing and have not decided which way to go exactly. Toggle switches or push pull pots or a combination. I have been trying to get a hold of an S-1 switch that would be perfect for activating the device (4pdt) but they are going for amazing prices on eBay. I have actually been thinking of building a 4pdt push-pull switch. I am also planing a unique battery placement and all this will need to be documented. Oh...and the switching of the guitar itself is complicated. During the mid-driver experiments, the selector was replaced with a super switch. I have now been thinking of doing a "super-strat" type thing similar to what the new S-1 strats can offer. So, you see this is a total rewire with a lot of mods and a few surprises...including the new sustainer of course... p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted October 10, 2007 Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 "Unfortunately, it will load down the guitar so will need a preamp." .... What? lol what does loading the guitar down mean/do? PSW is correct - it's to do with impedance mismatching. A passive guitar pickup has a relatively high source impedance. The little Champ amp was a relatively low input impedance. Think of the source impedance of a device as a car and the input impedance of a connected circuit as a trailer. If the car is under-powered (ie source impedance is very high) it'll have a hard time trying to lug around a heavy trailer (input impedance is very low). If you have a more powerful car or a lighter trailer the effort required to move the trailer will be less. Loading down a guitar pickup will usually result in low output and loss of treble. What's required is a buffer between the guitar pickup and the amp - something that will provide a high impedance input for the guitar pickup and a low impedance output to drive the amp. Using the car/trailer analogy, I guess you're looking at dropping a big block Chevy V8 into a Morris Minor to pull that trailer up the hill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 Thanks Curtis, well said...and I know I have said it before, but unavoidable non related problems have arisen getting the device to you for testing, but it is close. Thought I'd get a bit further on my own installation too so we could compare notes. The device, in an early prototype coil, was running with lighter strings (so had a lot of difficulty with the highest string) pretty well sitting on a fitted single coil and with only the bridge humbucker connected. Can you double check the coil core width for me, it sounds like it will be close. I try and make them 57mm as suggested, but sometimes they are a hair narrower. I am attempting to solve the problem by machining "production" bobbins with integral cores. The prototype jig made a vastly improved coil, but machining them is very tricky to get the core as I want it. Here is a sneak peek... the pickup the device the device fitted pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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