perhellion Posted July 2, 2004 Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 Hi all, I was looking at a topic at harmony central on compression. Lots of good info, but the thing I wondered about was some comments made about high gain. Someone pointed out that with high gain, you get some compression automatically (true). Someone else pointed out that you don't really want to use compression with high gain, since all the noise gets compressed also, so high gain + lots of compresser = lots of fuzz between notes and just overall mush rather than distinct notes. Okay, if you automatically get compression with high gain, how do you get good note seperation/ quiet between notes? Sidenote: The answer IS NOT: use proper technique and mute between notes. As an example, same guitarist, same song, album vs. live (He should be using the same technique both places.) George Lynch, Dokken, Kiss of Death, Back for the Attack vs. Beast from the East. Both sounds are way compressed, but the live one has much more of the between note fuzz. I've also seen George on an instructional video in which he was playing "live", and the between note sound was almost like the album, so the answer is also not "production of the album". Other examples, ZZ Top, My Head's In Mississippi, compressed, distorted, absolutely dead between notes. Billy Gibbons live - noise between notes. Joe Perry backstage, 80's black Les Paul, though what looked like a Fender Champ, cranked up, good distortion sound, but surrounded by the "ugly fuzz" so much so that it was hard to tell what he was playing. Any comments along these lines greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy McFeely Posted July 2, 2004 Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 ok the answer is on most studio albums the amp is in a room with no noise (iso-booth. also during the mixdown and mastering of a studio recording an engineer spends weeks, sometimes months cutting oout all of the silence and noise between drum beats, lyricks and guitar notes. although a good compressor used properly is great for helping a guitar not get lost in the mix, it does not get rid of noise. a noise gate would be better for this type of thing, but like a compressor, noise gates when overused can steal dynamics away from the sound of a guitar. School is now in session, Professsor Speedy will be facilitating. lesson #1 Compressors most types of singnal processors like reverbs, phasers, and eq make an obvious change to the sound. a compressors effect is much more subtle; when used properly, you probaly won't be able to tell you are even using a compressor. a compressor is just a device which controls volume. think of a compressor as a teenie tiny engineer with his hand on a fader at a mixing board watching a VU meter. as long as the the meter stays below a sertain point then he leaves the fader up and the gain is unchanged. but the instant the sound gets louder, the engineer pulls down the fader by a certain amount. when the sound gets soft again the engineer will move the fader back up again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perhellion Posted July 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 That's basically what I thought -- I understand what a compressor is doing, and I was afraid the sound I like is the result of studio egineering. Lynch's instructional video looks "live", but the sound has been fiddled with. With all the above understood, what would be a way to approximate "my Head's in Mississippi" live? I think the recording is sacrificing some "dynamics", but that's okay here. (I also think this is the era when Gibbons used the XP100 head (Rockman, but better). Also, I really don't know much about noise gates. I understand how they work but not the "fine tuning" of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy McFeely Posted July 2, 2004 Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 a noise gate is essentially a reverse compressor. it will work like a "gate", when the VU meter is below a certain point the gate is closed, meaning no sound. when the VU meter reaches a predetermined point it opens the gate to let the sound in. so when used together compressors and gates do essentially the same thing, but at different ends of the volume curve. i set my gates to just under the quietest part of the sound wave. this way i don't lose any sound, but it doesn't let any unwanted noise to come through the mix. trial and error are the only way to get a good set up on compressors and gates. and as you probably imagined it is different for every mix. good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted July 2, 2004 Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 ...Okay, if you automatically get compression with high gain, how do you get good note seperation/ quiet between notes?... ...The answer IS NOT: use proper technique and mute between notes.... Actually, that is most of the answer - keep in mind that the studio cut and that video are both the end-products of editing and production. Any solos that make it to tape are the best possible ones available from a large number of takes - it's even worse on albums, because they may be assembled from pieces of several takes (before his recent legal problems, Phil Spector has been known to make performers redo a part as many as 100 times before he was happy with it). And sometimes the tracks are recorded clean or semi-clean, tarted up with gates, EQ and compression, and then reamped though a high gain rig for the final sound. And you just can't do that live. That's why they pay guys like Butch Vig those huge bucks, they know how to make a band sound like a record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perhellion Posted July 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 Okay, if there are lots of takes and piecing together of parts (which there no doubt are), why are some guitarists better able to capture their studio sound than others? If good technique were the only answer here, the "technical" guitarists should be the ones best able to mute out any unwanted noises and sound like their recordings. But such is not the case. I've seen some not so great technical guitarists sound like the recording and some "technical" guitarists be surrounded by the "ugly fuzz" live. And, the motion involved in playing live and energetic shows = no way technique is perfect, yet some sound good, some don't (Slash live CANNOT run and jump and sound good, stand still, not too bad.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy McFeely Posted July 4, 2004 Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 it could also have to due with microphonic feedback. with a huge audio system, like those used in arenas and outdoor venues, you get allot of interference from radio waves, monitor signals, wireless units, high gain amps, microphones, video monitors, etc. a live sound is only as good as the house PA. here's an example. plug in your guitar, turn on your amp, turn the voulme pot on your guitar to 10. now stand next to your TV, or computer monitor, or talk on your cell phone. liten to the microphonic feedback from your guitar. now turn off all devices that send or recieve aay kind of signal, ie tv, radio, phone, monitor. now your guitar is considerably quieter, well it should be at least. live shows can sound great, or like crap. most of the time it isn't the artist. case in point: i've seen all of the G3 tours. the first one with eric johnson sounded awesome, the second one with JP sounded OK, and the last one with Yngwie sounded like poo when yngwie played, and alittle into Vai's set, then the probem was fixed for the jam set. another thing to consider is "live" recording. this is a completely different animal from studio recording, and uses different equipment. it's really hit or miss dude. If you ever get a band together and play at 20 or so different bars, parks parties, gyms, and outdoor venues you'll know exactly what i'm talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perhellion Posted July 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 That G3 thing is interesting. So, you are saying Vai in the first one sounded great, Vai at the second one sounded OK, Vai at the third one sounded like poo and then sounded markedly better towards the end of his set? (Could sub Satriani's name for Vai's - point is, same guitarist, three shows) I guess it stems from being overly critical of my own playing -- if I can't make it sound close to the album (happens a lot), I assume it is all player error. But when I see Joe Perry and the Champ amp warming up and sounding awful, I feel much better about my own playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ansil Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 one thing to consider also is that those who play the "technical type music" are a little more **** with their sound. the cats i grew up with were always trying to get out there and show off there licks but i was tweaking my sound so i knew how to change the presets for different types of rooms and or venues. so i had multiple settings that i could control via midi for different clubs rooms garages etc. another thing is finding the right combo of fx and distortions too as well as guitars .. i have noticed that certain instruments are too tempormental to take to a show and only sound good in controled enivroments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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