psw

OK, I've connected the black box to a 9volt battery and am running the power amp on minimum gain (x20). Seems to work just as well if not better and gives me more of the pot to play with so adjustments are more subtle. More importantly, it brings the guitar back into the lounge room so it'll let me have more time to play with it Presently, it works best in harmonic mode...that's where notes peel off a harmonic above after a given time. It's kind of neat to just play with the thing on and let any sustained notes peel off like this while shorter notes play as usual. Same with sustained chords. keep you guys posted psw

Well I can't find it now Mr. Vai... but somewhere I put forward just such an idea. It would be the obvious solution to mounting it. There would need to be a bit of development as it would no longer sit between the pickup's magnetic field and the strings but I have some ideas for working around it. Nice graphic though, if I spent a little more time with graphics than words I could have saved myself a couple of thousand and everyone would know what I was talking about a lot easier! How about some ideas for control layouts...looking at at least 1 knob and two switches cheers, psw

Thanks guys I posted this 'cause, well we got ourselves a digital camera for xmas so I can now, and, there seemed to be some concern at how it would look or even to quite grasp the concept of this incarnation of "The Project". By the way, any thoughts on a name for this thing? Ok, firstly, there is a special coating, and it's secret for obvious reasons, so there! Now the black box, well I'm sure you could get something in red. Seriously, as LK said, don't prototype stuff in the guitar. Actually, I had thought, if the circuit and controls could be made small enough, the strats jack plate could be incorporated into it and the sensitivity control come up just behind the volume. The battery could be installed down the hole...well it's an idea! The thing could be painted, I use nail polish (not on me, quit laughing), originally it was black but that all came off when I had to file it all down again. I have some embossing foil so I think I could make a fake silver or gold finish. Now, yeah, part of the concept is that it be removable, but not easily! On this prototype I've taken the wires out top and bottom. the idea is to file a small groove in the scratch plate or pickup cover for these to enter the guitar. These wires would be taped to the cover under the pickup to help hold it on. This example is held on with double sided tape. I've taken a wire out directly from the bridge pickup that comes out the back and connects to the black box under the yellow tape. Conveniently this guitar has a "soundhole" to bring the wire through. It also has an unusual wiring scheme..the three switches are phase for each PUp and the gibson style selector selects bridge, neck or both. The tone under the volume controls the volume of the middle pickup. Bringing this in either thins out the sound for quack or adds body depending on the phase selected by the mid switch to any combination. The point is though, I am able to turn off the mid coil, as it happens on this guitar, for testing the device. A conventionally wired guitar will need easy, but quite a bit of wiring modifications. Your also going to have to drill holes for the controls I fear. Sound clips are possible but my computers ancient and the samples always seem to take too long to load. I also need to record them to cassette then run them on a little recorder, so quality is very low. Also, the circuitry is still a little temperamental. I'd like to fix this up a little first. The first problem is that there is simply too much gain! Easily fixed and bodes well for it's efficiency. It also favours the bass strings so I need to adjust it's frequency but I get high frequency oscillation when I do. I need to get a little more sophisticated with the circuit (and a little help) and/or work more on the driver design to compensate for the mass off each string. It does respond quite well for chord work, at least in a blues rock style, having quite good string drive definition and keeping each string ringing for quite some time before the lower strings predominate. One reason for choosing the mid position by the way is to ensure that the strings, while string bending, stay under the influence of it's own driver. Some interesting effects occur though when they do that I didn't expect that's really cool and unique to this type of system. Anyhow, see what I can do in the next few days, I'll be away for a week so we can all rest from my super long posts! Thanks for your interest, it's really encouraging, I need that at the moment. psw

Here it is, opinions please...yes it does work! homemade strat with driver attached to mid pickup and circuitry in little black box behind bridge.... Here's a side view... and again in close up... a bit rough, but it's getting there! psw

That's right, but you have to consider in this type of device there are both active and passive components. Some of my prototypes simply wont work without the "packaging" and just about all of them will self-destruct before long. The drivers consist of active components that work on a passive magnetic field. This is very suseptable to the type of materials around it (it's "environment" I think I called it in a previous post) and this is very necessary to the design. I got up and had a bit of a play with the prototype and immediately achieved tremendous results holding the device directly above the strings over a pickup. However, it was a little too long (hit the height adjustment screws) and high (couldn't really get it under the strings properly) so I had to file off a lot of last nights work. Hopefully, after recoating with a secret material, these modifications will fix these problems. On the circuitry, I've also changed to an earlier test circuitry. I have been using a compressor preamp/amp combination for some time as it has automatic gain control and several other features I thought may be necessary. This old circuit fits in a small jiffy box taped to the guitar and works just as well on todays testing. That bodes well for a simpler drive circuit thats small and cheap. We'll have to see how fast it eats batteries though, I'm still running it from a 9v power supply. This circuit has run very early designs on a 9v battery before so I'm hopeful. Also, I have a rechargable 8.4v to test that so that perhaps I could just recharge the guitar by plugging it in for a few hours rather than take out a battery and pay for a new one every couple of days. Anyway, everyday another step closer. psw

Hey Ansil I was surprised to see this tread return to the front page. I didn't have a problem with the explanations and I've got to say, it was the sustainer Mod that lured me to the forum in the first place, but no one seems to have gotten it to work, which I find a bit wierd. My experiments with it got a feedback like induction and saturation causing a characteristic compression that you would associate with conventional feedback but not a string driving sustain, nor can I see how it could produce it given as it doesn't act directly upon the strings. Correct me if I'm wrong of course! That said, it does produce an interesting sustain in the sense that a compressor does, that is, it keeps the volume of the decay up till the last of the strings natural vibration. It also adds the characteristic intensity of edge of control feedback sustain. This is an interesting effect and musicallly useful of itself, however perhaps it is more people's expectations of it that are at fault. Of course it may be that no one seems to know how to solder the insides of a guitar or read a fairly simple diagram. There also seems to be an unwillingness for people to experiment, the questions always seem to be about not understanding every detail before having a go, and asking why it doesn't work! love your work Mr A: psw

By the way, I'm not sure if you guys realize the difference between prototyping a "product" as to just testing a theory or concept. I've just been spending a late night filing away at my little driver and you wouldn't believe the time that goes into them. Of course if I were "producing" them it would all be done with jigs and moulds but a one off takes a lot of work! Anyhow, hopefully once the glue fumes have settled the thing will still work, and with any luck, perform better than before! se ya psw

Good Question Bio' They're always shifting with me from humble to bizarely ambitious! Presently I'm puting together a basic driver assembly that fits on top of of the pickup. Instead of it being in the shape of a pickup it's more of a blade the width of the pole pieces and the length of the pickup. On my test strat it will fit on either the middle and neck but is also so devised that it could fit on the slug pole side of a humbucker. The driver has been tested quite a bit for the last week or so. I've made a few others including one that had 12 driver elements, but this is the one with which I've had consistant results. So, I'm putting it into a package more like a product I guess, or at least the next stage. I've been testing it outside of it's enclosure, something I haven't done too much before because it leaves them vulnerable to self destruction and the enclosure is integral to some of it's magnetic properties, such as magnetic focus. Presently it favours the bass strings (but all strings are sustaining well). This is a common problem with sustainer drivers. A major reason is that the thicker strings have more mass, that is there is more metal for the magnetic field to grab on to and shake around. Other reasons include the fact that higher frequency signals, typical on the high strings, obviously have a faster wave pattern and it's difficult for the drivers to respond as quickly. That said, I'm using a hex driver system which gives me the opportunity to tailor the driver to it's strings and to adjust the environment that the driver works in, per string. The circuitry can also be adjusted, and will need to be, to help with these problems. Alright, just at this moment then I aim to get the device into a practical installed example of my design. That means driver, circuitry the works, so that I can sit back and enjoy playing around with it and seeing how it performs. Once thats done I'll do some costings and refinement's to the design. That may take me to a stage where I can make a few of them to be tested by others. I'll also need to test it myself on some other guitars and work out how it goes with the addition of it's own independent magnetic field. Then it's looking into the whole patent licensing situation. This looks difficult and expensive and I simply don't know if I have the money. One option appears to simply sell the idea to a company and let them hold the patent and deal with the legal issues and costs. First things first, and that's to make a really cool, practical sustaining device. Hopefully, if all goes well with my present stage I'll be able to post some pictures and decent little sound clips...the last ones didn't do the concept any favours I fear so I'll try to get the guitar together with a little less sticky tape next time. All the best Bio' and all It's always good to see the interest in the project. Got any ideas of what I should be aiming for, let me know! psw

Thanks Guys! Honestly, I'm no expert...this is just hours and hours of research but mainly trial and error! I'll tell you this though, it really p!$$3$ off the wife and kids! Some times people just don't understand know what I mean. Also I live in a day ahead and half a day behind but work shift hours so a lot of my posts are done when I'm very, very tired so that doesn't help when trying to explain things! Feel free to contribute input...remember, no input, no output cheers pete

OK guys, thanks for the replys and your support and your obvious interest. I'll try to add some light on the project and answer some of these concerns. Bear in mind I haven't tryed these things yet so I don't know for sure but have done enough experiments to have a go. Now, current magnetic sustainers mean replacing the neck pickup. There is a patent by Osbourne in 1999 that puts forward the idea if a middle pickup driver. It's actually a very good patent to look at as it has complete and very detail circuitry and driver design. Here is a link: Osbourne and Hoover Sustainiac Patent 1999 If you want more links like this check out page 7 of this thread. There are quite a few others scattered through the discussions as well. My drivers use a different technology and the circuitry, at least at present, is simpler. Simpler means cheaper and more reliable I hope. Early on it seemed that the secret was in the circuitry but after some encouragement, particularly from Lovekraft (cheers mate), I concentrated primarily on driver design and this is where most of my progress has been made. The intention has always been to create something that can be fitted with minimum alteration and comprimise to the instrument. That means, no replacing pickups, no routing holes in the guitar, that kind of thing. I have sought to be able to have pickup choice in sustain mode, but there are limitations and no current sustainer allow for it so it is a bit of an ask. So, by this we are looking at something essentially surface mounted. I have continuously striven for miniture in size and my drivers are, I guess 20 times smaller and still produce infinite sustain so to that extent I have been successful. The device I'm testing now is truely small. It's the width of a pickup and about 4mm thick and a lot less than a cm wide. It could be just about any color and really wouldn't intrude on the guitar. Once out of test mode I'll post a picture. There will be evidence of it more from the controls necessary. It would probably work best next to a pickup I suspect. On many 2 humbucker guitars there's not a lot of space between them and I'm not sure what interaction a traditional humbucker would have with the driver/s. On say a two humbucker or HSH, I'd be looking at putting it next to the neck pickup on the bridge side. It may work in the center position but the position of it along the string makes a big difference to it's response and what you can do with it. The harmonic mode can be really unpredictable. On my mid pickup prototype I actually had notes getting higher as I moved back towards the nut! This is because the harmonics get closer together as they get to the strings ends and more difficult to achieve. (I hope you guys realize there are playable harmonics at the 4th 3rd and second frets, in fact they're everywhere) The harmonic mode allows every note played conventionally to sound an octave above. A note on the 12th fret would sound like on on the 24th. This effect is only really predictable around the center of the string, or so it seems. It may be that my super slim driver design could be placed in some other sweet spot to achieve a similar result between pickups but I haven't found it. I have had a single string driver working between the mid and bridge pickup before so maybe... What I'd like people to get is that we are almost creating a different instrument by adding this device, just as the electric guitar is quite different from an acoustic, even though it's tuned the same, etc., it's potential allowed for quite a different stream of music to be created. The harmonic mode is such a cool effect that I wouldn't sacrifice it necessarily, just for pickup selection in sustain mode. Equally, I wouldn't sacrifice the neck pickup, as you are expected to do with current systems, to have the sustain driver. So, I've developed a slim driver and I wouldn't expect it to be hidden, but it certainly wouldn't be conspicuous. Now, I don't want to discuss it too much but there have been some spin off effects that I didn't expect to work...although they were discussed and dismissed early on, as I recall. That was before these newer designs and we were looking at sizable conventional coils. But I have been able to produce sustain from the pickup right up against the drivers. It was bearly controllable but it was done. The theory why it shouldn't work is that inductive feedback will create uncontrolled feedback, just like a mic up against a speaker, preying on a multitude of resonances in the pickups, drivers and circuitry. These are so extreme that it blocks any chance of getting a signal to be from the string, let alone sustain it! That is the main reason for it having to be as far away as possible from the "sounding" source pickup. Remember that the strings are metal and will allow magnetism to travel along them into the path of other pickups. I have done quite a bit of experimentation into magnetics and again have been using a unique "rotating" magnetic field. This fundumental difference in driver design, small size and magnetic configuration may have solved some of the obstacles and opened the door to some other interesting projects. It will take quite a bit more work I'm afraid. So, for now it's getting a practical sustainer going and then testing out exactly what it can do. Along the way, there may be some nice surprises. Just keep in mind that this is still experimental, but getting closer and closer, day by day. Thanks guys, sorry for rambling again psw

Hi Vai...happy New Year Now remember these things i'm working on are experimental at this stage and I may wish to sell the idea someday so I can't give too much away. I did announce a third generation of sustainer technology... To recap... The first generation consisted of various conventional coils and were eventually labeld CP1, etc. I tryed a number of different magnetic field designs and the coils were placed in various unusual configurations. They also got smaller and increasingly difficult to wind. The second generation came when I discovered another way of moving focused magnetic fields without winding coils at all. This was a breakthrough and I can't tell any more, sorry. These were labeled CP9x, etc. The third generation shuns conventional magnetics but does relate to some earlier work. I have achieved infinite sustain but if it is a practical method remains to be seen. It would mean no interferance with the magnetic pickups but will require extensive bridge modifications if not a total redesign. Now, I thought I'd try it as I am working on a new bridge design that looks really exciting and thought of leaving the door open for the possibility of sustain in my design. At first my bridge idea was to create a tremolo system for Les Paul type guitars that required no routing. To do this I had to abandon conventional springs. Floyd Rose made a good attempt but ultimately did not meet his high standards. I didn't particularly want to replicate the Floyd style action, just get something that's practical, suits the instrument, gives a similar performance to a Strats trem, and stays in tune pretty much. Because the Gibson head stock leans back and the strings splay to the sides, a locking nut was most likely to be nesessary. Therefore, bridge tuners (as floyd incorporated) would probably be nessesary. Anyway, like all of my ideas, I brainstorm them so much by myself that everything but the kitchen sink gets thrown in because theres nobody to tell me to get real or that enough's enough already. That's why I've been sharing so much of this project with you guys. Anyway, the bridge is now being developed on a strat and I've made preparations to fit one to my 'Paul. It does not use conventional springs and is quite thin. The concept is that not only are there individual tuners but a method of selecting between two preset string tensions per string. By selecting various combinations, like on a hipshot style bridge, you can instantly change from standard to open G, open D, dropped D, GADDAD or any other. You could even bend strings from within chords like a B bender! All this and a tremolo that automatically locks to a fixed bridge when not in use. This all takes some precise engineering (not my forte) but it's coming along and the total concept is down on paper. As I say, there's the possibility of a sustainer type of system unlike any current magnetic string drivers (although it requires quite a bit more testing, even though I've proved in principle that it can be done) and I've made provision for piezo pickups. Even when I do get this thing together it will probably not be cost effective for me to personally produce them. Now, I'm working on a third version of my sustainer and it's going really well so far. It will work in the middle position but I've discovered other reasons why you may want it up near the neck if you look at my last post. Anyway, the thing is getting smaller and there may even be a posibility that people may fit multiple drivers in several positions switching between them for different sounds. There are also some practical problems with a technology that adds to an existing component. Each pickup and it's mounting system is different and it is unlikely that a one size fits all system could be produced...discussed in my last post also. So, the MKIII version I have running now, sits right up against the neck pickup. I'm pretty sure it will work in the mid position but this may not be ideal for other reasons. Personally, as long as the thing isn't ugly, why pretend that it isn't there? Perhaps you could explain your concerns so I can take that into account. Anyway, this thing is shaping up to be small enough to fit between the neck pickup and the neck itself on a 22 fret strat. Now thats pretty small, especially when you consider it sits on top of the scratch plate! I may even be able to fit it within a modified pickup ring for humbucker type guitars. I'm making it magnetically self contained but the polarity of the pickup it will be mounted next to will have to be taken into account, I suspect. It would equally work without an onboard pickup because of this feature...even an electro acoustic! Still working on the circuitry, but it is working on the stuff I've been using so far. I have to say that it really likes the bridge pickup (which it get's it's signal directly from) and the drivers as close as possible to the strings. As with pickups, we're looking at tiny forces. If I were to increase it's power all sorts of unwanted effects occur...one of which is the complete nuetralization of any magnetic device in the vacinity, which of course means the pickups. As a result, the drivers get no signal and you not only get no sustain but absolutely no sound at all! Anyway, all strange and wonderfull stuff and I'm learning a lot. I discovered something else my driver can do by accident that exploits one of these odd effects just today. And yesterday, I think I found something promising for a passve pickup design that has an active core! So many ideas, too little time... so that's it, you may need to read back a bit, still working on that index when I have time, that should make the going easier, but there's a lot to grasp...it ain't easy... see ya psw

Hi there hope everyone is set for a great new year Here's a typically rambled post from someone who can't sleep! I completed the last prototype and it works as reported...except for the G string driver that seems to have developed a fault during fitting into the guitar...hmmm. There are other problems too...the pole spacing is far narrower than a fender but the holes that these slot into to hold the thing on are made for a push fit. I also had difficulty getting it just the right size. It ended up a mm too wide so It couldn't lewer below the scratch plate. Struggling for room I opted for putting a shim under the neck and raising the bridge to test it properly. Basically, it would be impossible to make a one size fits all component to this design concept. Not to be daunted, I located a different component for the driver elements that will make my life easier as the others are a little fragile and require careful testing to be of use. These are a little more expensive but should be worth it. So, I put together a MKII version and this worked out OK but was having a few problems with it still...the wiring was getting complicated, the impedances were all over the place and I was getting harmonic mode drive on alternate strings.....hmmm Alright, had to drive a 'ways to get some more, and now I've think I've got it down. This new one drives really well sitting on top of the neck pickup (cover on) fed from the bridge. The bridge pickup needs to be pretty close...I'll be trying a different preamp to try to solve this. The guitars I'm using have very low powered single coils, I'm sure a better, hotter pickup or humbucker would yield much better results. On my test instrument, with the driver turned off and taking up about 4mm of space the balance between the two is way out. So, I was looking at how this could be fitted to other guitars and went over some previous design ideas...here's one from page 13 THIS IS THE CP9x in Hex format with a new look design.... It's a slim looking thing and I'm thinking something of this size may fit neatly next to the neck pickup or wherever it works best for the player. You may have noticed that I'm back to the neck pickup which means of course you would lose it's use in sustainer mode. I've been learning a lot very quickly now that I have some more practical prototypes working on all six strings, rather than my earlier single string prototypes. These were great but ultimately they need to work together and that was always going to be a challenge. It is easier to drive from that 24 fret harmonic mode. The theory goes that there is more throw and its around a nodal point. One problem I've always had with the theory is that with higher notes say on the 21st fret (22nd-24th if you have 'em) your pretty close now to the driver so the throw is no more than if you were at the bridge, yet it works perfectly well and the nodal points only make sense with the open string don't they as they change with each fret! You can drive the string from the centre pickup and even the bridge, at least with my designs which seem to have a more efficient containment of magnetic energy, but you do seem to sacrifice some of the harmonic mode potential (and of course the pickup it's nearest too!). This seems to be worth it though so perhaps instead of using pickup selection for a deeper tone, use the tone control to cut some highs...I might even have some ideas for creating different drive effects that may make pickup selection less of an issue. I brought up the CP9x because it was an idea to put the driver small enough to fit next to the pickup without routing. That's probably where I'll go with this current working prototype...adapting it so as to be self contained and work on any instrument. So it's back to mucking around with the magnetic fields again. This time I'll be trying to create a field that allows the driver array to create it's unique wave pattern (sorry, not a tsunami joke) and not dampen it nor have too many advese effects on the pickup nearest to it. There is no getting around the fact that there will be some effect on the shape of a pickups magnetic field if another is placed near it, it's just a fact, I'm just aiming to make them less bad. It's even possible that it could improve some pickups by shifting the sensing field. For instance, many people don't like 24 fret guitars as the neck PUp is shifted too far from its sweet spot. A driver place next to the neck PUp may push the sensing field back towards the position coverted by these players and improve performance. The drivers field may increase pickup power. You may need to lower the neck pickup for balance and tone due to the increased magnetic field. There's still something nice about the idea of using the guitars existing magnetic fields. I definitely have plans to incorporate driver elements into some new pickup designs I'm working on and I haven't given up on the idea, just trying to make the thing practical. The Hex driver system, although on these current designs all six work in sync (ie not driven by separate signals from a special hex pickup), has some interesting quirks that could be useful in a musical way. The only way to cut it out is to get tricky with the magnetic fields (which of course I've attempted) but it's quite an interesting effect. The big problem with hex drivers is that the further away from the bridge, the more it is effected by string bending. As a result, a bend of a tone will push the string well into the next drivers field of influence. To use my wave analogy, a a certain point in the bend you will ride over a crest, at which point several things may/will happen. I can't really talk too much about it but it may prove to be a new technique. So, since it's pretty late, I'll stop rambling on and update as follows: The last pictured prototype worked but may not be ultimately practical. One of it's drivers has failed, but I am assuming it is a wiring problem caused during installation. I made a second version from new components which was successful but revealed some technical problems. This prototype however solved most of those technical problems from the symptoms it displayed. Today, I made another version based on this information and it's working fine, appears reliable enough, is easier to make than the other x-driver family due to these new components and is working fine, sitting atop the neck pickup. I'm now thinking about a magnetic field to be able to separate the driver from it's pickup for a more universal application. I've got some more circuit components together so that I can refine the driver circuitry to fit within the guitar and run from a battery. I'm hoping that my driver design will not only be magnetically efficient, but as a result, require less power. It is still my intention to allow the use of rechargable batteries. How to fit it all into a typical guitar is still going to be a problem. You are going tom need space for the circuitry, battery and at least 2 switches and a gain control...possibly a few optional extras. You're at least going to have to drill some holes in the scratch plate so the thing is a commitment. Unless, you could stand the thought of the wires being outside of the instrument and going to a small box somewhere with all this stuff built in. See you in 2005 psw

Thanks Bio and everyone that's shown an interest. I really need to get a practical working "product" before I could contact anyone...it's complicated and I'm sure there's a lot to learn in that process as well. Meanwhile, for Xmas (we're a day ahead down here ), I fitted the driver to and actual guitar and have all six drivers tested individually and successfully sustaining away! So far, so good...very happy but still a bit of work left to do. It's a great way to see out the New Year though! I'll get some picks of the thing fitted to give people a better idea of the concept and when I have the thing working fine, I post some sound. cheers psw

I've alway's liked "Guitar Player" though they certainly have had periods of trash when they lost their way. I've had a subscription now but I have a collection shelved that goes back to the 70's (not complete mind you). I still read back and find things of interest in them. Certainly if you want information on the widest diversity of players, this is the bible. The mags from England, especially "Guitar Techniques" are really good with really good players and diversity. "Guitarist" is essentially an equipment mag and thats what they give you. The other mags I pick up from time to time. Since people are using the internet perhaps you coould share some sites of interest. psw

psw

Here's some pics! This one shows the top of the "cover"...I know it's a little rough but, hey, it's a first prototype...the main thing is that it works at this stage...right? Here's one showing it fitted to the top of the pickup Next thing is to work out how best to wire up the sucker...there will be no need for all those wires I suspect as the driver interface could be hidden within the casing once I work it out. This one's experimental remember! You can see that there is enough room with the PUp's cover removed to get past the scratch plate. The black stripe is the essential driver part, there is room also for auxillery magnets for non-mid PUp guitars so I may be able to test the prototype on that type of guitar. There are many other forms that I could package this in...they may be better so I'll keep them to myself. I also have plans for a pickup/driver...but that's for later, I still have my bridge project on the go! enjoy psw

Quite right Bio...quite a ways-a-way...and I thought I'd got the concept across already. OK, I'm testing it on a strat. The thing sits on top of the middle pickup. The placement of the driver has a dramatic effect on the way it responds and it's effect however it should work just as well in the neck position. If in the neck position you will loose the ability to use the neck pickup when using the sustainer and will need to do the wiring to disable it. I imagine (as I'm no where near testing it on this type of guitar yet) that a typically set neck guitar or one with 10mm between the strings and scratch plate that a magnetised version would slip right in without routing. I cant see anyway of getting around the fact that the driver/s need to be really close to the strings. If it were'nt you'd need a lot of extra power. Power means heat, means batteries will last about ten minutes (literally) and means squealing, which means no sustain, meaning no use! Remember, this thing works on magnetic energy that is moving. The strings are made of metal and the magnetic energy will pass through anything non metalic. They will be attracted or repelled by other magnetic forces (such as in a pickup) and have extremely complex phase relationships due to the complexity of the signal from the guitar. Now, the principle is easy enough but there's a lot more to it. If you look at the first post of this thread (I've been going back over it lately) you'll see that over ten years ago I made a working sustainer. It used so much power that the strings heated up so hot I couldn't touch them and they eventually broke! It seemed like the right idea at the time but it couldn't be played in tune and you burnt your fingers. In, short, using typical magnetic principles, even with my new technology, you are still going to need to be close. Mine might be a little better at containing the fields, but there is no way you could run it right next to another pickup or to hide it within the typical guitar. And, it will be quite a while yet. Mr Vai, I'd get in touch with the people at sustainiac and see if it can be done with their system 'cause you don't seem to need the benifits of my next generation sustainer technology. Now, recently I described a third generation sustainer technology. I have been able to get some kind of sustain in testing but only if you changed to my radical new bridge concept that I'm working on. It ain't no floyd though, so it won't be for everybody. There is no restriction in the pickups or obvious "sustainer" other than the extra controls. Which reminds me, if your routing, make room for a 9v battery (two with the Fernandes) and the extra controls and circuitry, even if you don't fit one now! So, I'm sure I could have said all that better, I'll clarify if need be, got to run. psw

Welcome aboard Mr. Vai! Thanks...so you would like the sustainer to be disguised as a pickup, is that the idea? Is the hotrails in the bridge, or do you mean the sustainer and the hot rails together in the neck position? My driver would work perfectly well in the neck position but not on top of a humbucker (rails are single coil sized, side by side humbuckers)...but then, maybe it would...it would take a little experimentation. Certainly it would work as a driver without a pickup in the neck position, you might not have to route anything at all! As for putting a cover on it, if you dont mind the look of a pickup like the hotrails, I think you'd find what I'm cooking up acceptable. I've done a little more work on the cosmetics of it today...perhaps soon I'll be able to post a picture. The reason I haven't done so yet is that I don't want to put out anything that might give away it's secrets. These are hidden within a solid epoxy casing which is integral to the design...it wont work without it...but all the same, a half baked prototype will not impress anyone so...soon I promise. A little tweaking of the circuitry and I might even have some presentable sound clips as well! see ya psw P.S. I'm looking forward to when this is finished too!

Could be right Bio...let me have a think about it a little... This is the point I guess as Godin SD has pointed out, there's a lot to ignore. Have you noticed though that it's hard to go directly to a particular page...hmmm...maybe page by page psw

OK Bio, here's what I was thinking. The thread is incredibly long but there is a lot of interest in it and I think that people will find it of interest for some time to come as it shows the kind of hoops , detirmination and flexability required to achieve a goal. It also shows that a lot can be achieved with ample doses of encouragement, challenges and contributions from all kinds of people can achieve in a fairly short time really. For anyone embarking on such an enterprise, these things are crucial, and I would have given up long ago if not for this! Now the index...I was thinking...if you have Microsoft Word or similar, you could copy each post's reference details to that as a kind of hyperlink. You could name each hyperlink by the name of it's contributor. Once you have that (there's about 400 post's I think!) you could anotate under each link a short description of the topic being discussed (e.g. circuits, links, etc.). So what you'd have is a long list of links that would appear as the names of those who posted them and what the post related to. Send it to me via email and I'll check it out and we'll post it either within this thread or as a separate thread so that it appears as the first post. psw@dodo.com.au The idea is that, if you see something of interest in the index, click on the hyperlink and it would take you straight there in a separate window! This could then be edited and added to later to keep it up to date. I don't think it would be too hard to do, but it would take a little time...Many thanks Bio for taking up the challenge...I think it will be useful! pete

Thank's guys, the interest and encouragement has been really appreciated. 5000 hits and hardly a flame in sight, extra-ordinanary! Well it's Christmas time and I was able to convince the family that a digital camera would be a good idea...so expect some pics..the thing can take pics as close as 6cm. OK, so till then, the prototype is (going to be) the size and exact shape of a single coil PUp. It has two aluminium fins separating an area of black and the outside edges are white, I think it looks quite cool! Other colors would not be a problem, I dare say you could paint the thing. The concept is that it's pretty thin, about 7mm on the prototype. You would need to remove the cover from the centre coil, attach this thing to the uncovered pickup and run the wires past the uncovered coil. The pickup will have to be substantially lowered. Now, for guitars without a centre coil, the driver would be equiped with it's own magnets and, on a Les Paul would easily fit. The wires could enter the pickup cavity by filing away a little from the bottom of the pickup ring, and be attached with strong double sided tape or a couple of screws. It's important to limit vibration of the driver to maximise vibration of the strings. As these guitars don't have a centre pickup you wouldn't have to modify the guitars circuitry too much as there would be nothing to disable. I've had so many different ideas of how the thing could be finally realized. One has been that I shrink the circuit, have a thumb wheel at the side, just below the strings and all that would be required is a little bit of modification to the guitars wiring and finding room for the battery. For the strat prototype, I think I've located a cool push button 4pdt switch which lights up with an LED. I'd probably sacrifice a tone control for the sensitivity. I'm not sure that I can duplicate the Harmonic Switch of other systems. This is a product of the placement of the drivers and the way they work. Initial testing though suggests that similar, and other, effects can be achieved by simply changing pickups and manipulating the tone control. There are a few other controls that could be incorporated but you'd end up with a guitar that looks like a spiney anteater with all the switches sticking out of it! For the technically inclined, you will recall that I had been playing around with the idea of rotating magnetic fields. The idea in this design is very similar but it is hard for me to describe...it's a little like a wave I guess. There are other ways to achieve driver but the point of my technology is to limit inductive feedback with the other pickups and to produce a driver without coil winding at all, and to provide the flexibility offered by it's hex design. Remember guys, it's early days yet...there's plenty of hicups yet to occur I'm sure! psw

Well, possibly Mr. Vai, there are going to have to be some tradeoffs I imagine. I would'nt have thought sustain was of paramount concern given that you would have access to infinite sustain! If you want to try it, adjust your pickups as close as you can and still play the highest frets, particularly the higher strings and see what happens. The driver is of a similar energy to a pickup. I've found with my system so far that I can use my normal pickup height (not overly close) but the centre pickup has to be lowered. There is probably less magnetism exerted on the strings when not in use. The intense magnetism is experienced with the drivers activated as they are electro magnetic, the internal magnets are there only to create a field which the driver's manipulate to create the infinite sustain. Try it, tell us what you think. On some guitar's (especially strats) you can get wolf tones and intonation problems, this of course would be unacceptable on any guitar. By the way, I'd be interested to hear, from anyone reading this thread, what type of guitar and pickup combinations people have a desire to add a sustainer system to. It could help with my development of my system, a little further down the track. For me, I'm using standard, cheapo copies with their original, ceramic single coils at the moment. Once up and running I'll try it on some others, I can even see how you could add it to, say a les paul, which generally has no middle pickup, without much of a problem. It would probably be better to post them on the sustainer ideas thread, here it is again.... psw's sustainer project, page 25! psw

Thanks Godin SD. Welcome to the sustainer thread! Bear in mind that it's still a little ways off and certainly not yet a commercial proposition! I would anticipate it being a little cheaper to produce and coming from you'd probably get a reasonable exchange rate! However.... There's always the possibility that I'm breaking several patents, it would certainly be contested just for what it does by other manufacturers. You would also need to bear in mind that the thing contains secret technology, unlike that presently used but, would be of value to others! These things are not a simple circuit. They are a system. In particular the driver/s, which would not be easy to reproduce nor would I be willing to divulge it's secrets at the moment, take quite a bit of precision and knowledge of some exotic materials to build. So, no, I couldn't provide DIY details! Progress so far... Hit a few minor snags. Destroyed a few driver elements shaping the prototype unfortunately. Still, this type of thing is to be expected, but is frustrating. It does teach me that I should pre-shape the device before inserting fragile components (which is easy if you knew in advance the size and shape you wanted, which you can't really know until you make one! Catch 22) and that these components should be tested before use in case of faults before being permanently installed into the driver assembly! Fortunately, I have managed to save the prototype so that I don't have to start again. I have a couple of test driver circuits from my previous circuits. One in particular is small enough and ready to go and has demonstrated that it will run effectively from battery power. I'm hopefull that I will be able to run it from rechargable batteries if you want. I gave up using batteries for my experiments as I went through too many, so this is still an area that needs to be explored. There needs to be some kind of driver interface circuit to optimise the drivers for polyphonic driving (ie chords), but it will work without it, some notes will tend to predominate like on present systems! Some work is still required to figure ot just how to best insert the sustainer system into the guitars electronics, and the type of controls that should be made available (there are a few more possibilities with this system). Some thought has already been put into this so they're not major problems really. The next stage is to test the prototype to ensure that it is still working correctly and, by trial and error, connect the 14 wires that eminate from the prototype driver in various ways to get the best results. Then, wire up the already made driver circuitry into the guitar and play about with it, tweaking as I go! I'm anticipating taking all the wiring back out through the back spring cavity so that I can fine tune the electronics but still have a properly playing instrument. So, still a lot of work but closer than I've ever been before! psw

OK...the driver needs to be very close to the strings. Mainly because, the further away, the more output (to the driver) and the less focused the output will be on the strings. People have thought of putting covers over the sustainer pickup to disguise it, but, your still looking at 1.5mm which doesn't sound a lot but it could mean a doubling of the distance. If you tried to compensate with more power, the magnetic energy would travel further down the metal strings and create an inductive loop in the bridge pickup causing squeel. There is a gain trim pot to adjust it for your guitar I believe, so you kind of have to tune the circuit to your guitar (pickup output, etc). The sustainer principle is very simple but getting the elements to work practically is very much a fine balance. I should know psw's amazingly long, sustainer thread..... psw

OK...I'm not from sustainiac...but here's their web site. Sustainiac Mr (err) Vai, the posted picture is of one of their models and the plate is part of their installation kits for humbucker equiped guitars. Be aware however, you can't use the neck pickup with the sustainer with any current sustainer technology. psw