psw

Boy that was a quick reply monkey man... Read some of the thread, there is a picture of one 1-2 pages back... Basically a Hex (latin for six) Pickup is six individual pickups, one for each string. With the Sustainer, you're actually talking about six Drivers making the string vibrate to create, amoungst other things, infinite sustain. No I wont tell you how it works exactly but there is lots of stuff within this thread. Current ideas are effectively pickups in reverse, but this is an over simplification... psw

Good to see the support... Unfortunately I didn't have time to detail my intentions in my initial post... Quite right Spirit...that was the idea to send people to the appropriate sources... Hotrock stole my thunder...SK helped me when I started and the site is a really good gateway to the subject. I was giong to post this site because of his use of Finite Elememt Method Magnetics software...FEMM FEMM is freeware and I just got the new version...great program thats helped me make the invisible, visible... There's probably a link from SK's site...if not, here it is FEMM Freeware If you refer to SK's site you'll find magnetic models of various types of pickups using this software...if you ask nice he may even email you the file. I'll try to find more links from my extensive research and post them here. The idea I think should be to refer people to the experts then meet back here for clarification, discussion and debate...there's plenty of scope for it in this forum. One good thing about this forum is that, by-and-large the people here are not condesending and are a little more open to new ideas. Many of the experts out there are without doubt fairly conservative and this can intimidate people from contributing and looking forward. I've thought of a host of pickup ideas, some of which are coming into being slowly, others yet to be realised...they're not difficult ideas...just not traditional but based on new emerging technology. It maybe just me but I'd like to see guitar technology pushed a little further bye for now psw P.S. I'm no expert!!!!

G_urr_A I have to admire Bill Lawrence...a pioneer and a straightshooter when it comes to pickups, etc. Anyone interested in pickup design should check him out as he dispels alot of the VooDoo associated with pickup design. Lace are another company with innovative ideas...just check out their patents...at least they make an effort to make some progress. It's still a way to getting the system in a fully working practical design. That said, this new technology, I really believe is a breakthrough completely different from previously proposed systems, and we will eventually get to work. If any companies are interested in this project, they may feel free to contact me. For now it's on with the design... I'm putting togther a Hex version of the CP9x at the moment thats coming up a treat...pics soon psw

Hi There.... Many of you will know me from my "Sustainer Ideas". I've been getting alot of questions relating to my project about magnetics and pickups and thought, rather than having everyone start there own threads or extending mine (over 14 pages long and 2000 hits), lets start a new thread on these subjects so that we can all share in the discussions and learn a bit. So, I got interested in winding pickups of an unusual nature as I have a tendancy to try to reinvent the wheel...I also have a curiosity as to why things work the way they do and the details that make something as simple in principle like a guitar pickup so ellusive when it comes to making a good one. Many people wonder why the Fender and Gibson pickups have survived as the standard for 50 years. Well, after quite a bit of research, I kind of get the feeling that they both hit upon something great through trial and error and since then everybody has been trying to emulate them. This has been further reinforced that the standard designs of guitars have not changed and so even if you wanted to try something new it would be constrained by the spaces provided for them in the instrument. Now, pickups are simple creatures... Basically the consist of a magnetic field in which the strings vibrate, and a coil that senses the disturbances caused by these vibrations within the same magnetic field creating an electrical signal analogous to these same vibrations. (And you can quote me on that!) There are essentially two main variables The Magnetic Field including the power, shape and polarity of the field or fields. The Coil or Coils including the size, shape, wire thickness, winding style number of turns and associated concequenses of these variables to frequency response. So, I could go on and on ....(as I do)....and will do, in further installments and feel free to contribute advice and debate, links etc. This tread is for everyone...not just an ask psw...though I will enjoy...so I hope you will too! psw

Welcome to oz you fellas betta learn the dinkim lingo if you gunna speak like us true blue aussies. Careful up North and don't touch the crocs or our sheilas. Our lectric stuff is powered by jumping roos...do you even know that you got powa where you going mate! Should have no worries cobber, just don't go to far outback or us natives i'll get ya! And don't get burn't in the sun, watch the sharks and by the way, up north when it's summer the oceans are full of stinging jelly fish...come down south to Melbourne some time for some real cultua...it's only a coupla thousand km each way plenty of room psw

Hey matt dig around the internet for how to make a hex pickup from dismantaled relay coils. Pickup maker's forum mentioned them as I remember and Ansil commented on them in my thread somewhere. I'd be interested in finding the details again so email me if you find them psw

Thanks guys, Im proud of them Would I sell them? You bet, it's cost quite a bit to get them to this stage in development (although the drivers themselves are not expensive) so I'd like to get those costs back. We discussed this some time ago but patents are expensive and by doing so all the secrets must be revealed. I would be prepared to sell out to a major company but they tend to rip me and you off in the end. It's probably best that I develop it to a saleable degree and put them out to people such as yourselves for a reasonable cost till they catch on and put me out of business...at least I'd get something from it. As far as making it yourself, they are very small and I wont tell you how to do it so the costs for you to try to work it out, even if you had the knowhow and the equipment would be considerable. The small size is not only to meet my requirements to be removable and fitted without modification to the instrument. I have a theory that the larger the driver is, the more dispersed the magnetic radiation and therefore the more it will interfere with the workings of nearby magnetic pickups. By making them small I can concentrate the field in a unique way so as to avoid some of these problems. Once a working design is established a means of effectively manufacturing small quantities needs to be developed. Some of these are already underway as I am mindful of this as I design them. It's no good inventing something that is too hard to make! Appreciate the interest...keep it up psw

Back again Looked at the CP8x...simply not as good as earlier designs...CP7x...ok but...The CP6x is probably the best of the x series. So have redesigned it to produce the CP9x...and here it is... This is about twice the actual size, the actual driver is 10mm long! I know how you all like pictures...I'll try to get sounds bye from oz psw

Oh yeah And I have the book but Q-tuners etc are not featured. Half is on various homemade pickup designs for the bass, and the other half is on making fretless basses. It's got some interesting designs but not essential reading. psw

MATT! Are you saying you have a working homemade sustainer... psw

Hey Matt Here's some advice... What you are contemplating is not going to be like any other pickup type and the results will be totally unpredictable. I say this as encouragement to experiment but don't try to copy (I dont see what's so good about dimebags pickup other than it is very hot) Rare Earth Magnets are really strong but after experimenting with them for a couple of years I have to tell you that you are dealing with something different. The main thing is that for a given strength rare earth Mags are significantly smaller and so their field shape is different. The magnets are there to create a field in which the vibrating string causes disturbances that create electrical signals in the coil. It is the shape of the field which is vital. A stanley knife blade (good idea) is very thin and will cause a very narrow field to be created. This will sense a very narrow part of the string and may cause weird harmonic effects. Too strong a field will actually inhibite string vibration. The shape of the coil is also important as is the number of windings. Thinner wire is generally used so that more windings can be wound in a given space. The problem with overwinding and thinner wire is it drastically effects the resonant frequency (Q) of the pickup and therefore it's tone. The reason pickup design has pretty much stuck to conventional designs and shapes is that it is generally accepted that Gibson and Fender created the standard which can only easily be emulated by copying pretty much the materials and configuration of these models. The dimebucker may have blades (?) and overwound hot output but it's still basically a humbucker if you get what I mean. Anyway, make of this what you will. Personally, if you want to try out new materials and stuff, the world needs more like you. You may not know but my first post was about rare earth magnets so you could look that up. I have worked a bit with pickup design and their use and they are used in my sustainer driver. If magnetics and the shape of magnetic fields interests you, find a copy of the free magnetic modeling software FEMM. It's pretty easy to use and makes the magnetic field visible. There are some pickup makers who use it and have posted on their sites examples of various pickup fields and variations they've tried. enough from me, hope this helps psw

Well, sometimes size does seem to matter The pictured HEX driver has some promise but lacks the power of the x series. I've gone back to developing the CP8x and had a single driver working without the noise problems of other designs. It's also slimmer than the other x's but I have to modify some components to make it all work so some must die in the process. Still, all is not lost as I learnt alot from building this one. I'll reveal a few features of the pictured driver: It's black and scolloped beneth each string. The base is aluminium which gives a nice silver edge and although they look black, the ends are actually red LED's so give off an evil glow when the driver is on. The method of construction allows for a little bit of flexability so can conform to the fretboard curvature. I'll be using some of these manufacturing techniques and features on the new driver.stay tuned psw

GOOD ON YOU MATT Matt has taken my advice and started his own thread as I did with my sustainer ideas. I hope we can all watch and learn. It's virtually impossible to replicate commercial products but hand made pickups often sound better. Find a supplier of bobbins like ALLPARTS and magnets. Check out pickup making forums and pickup winding. Have a look at designed to wind website for winding machine ideas And everybody immediately look at this web site for pickup details and the ultimate collection of HUNDREDS of switching options - Pickups and Pickup Selection Website Look around at what you have about (cordless drills, drill presses, electric toys) that spins and see what you can adapt You might not end up with the pickup you want, and if thats all you want go out and get one it will be cheaper, but you might get one that's even better. Leo Fender and the Gibson guys effectively hand wound all the early pickups and the inconsistancies of this process makes them the best you can get. Mass market pickups can't match them good luck psw

I don't want to offend or put people off but this thread is on sustainer ideas. I love to hear about related ideas and contribute where and when I can. Perhaps, start a new thread and place a message here directing people to it if it is related or post me a PM so that I know to look for it. Otherwise we will end up with a forum within the forum and that's no good if you want a wide range of ideas... While I'm personally interested, it should be noted that my current sustainer drivers are not like conventional pickups at all. They may have potential in that area or especially perhaps in miniture active HEX pickup design but I can't work on everything at once... good luck with your projects and keep me posted and in the loop cheers psw

I had designs for mounting the switches actually on the pickups which I thought would be cool...but I'm busy sustaining right now Oh yeah, I also have a strat wiring that I really like which has three phase reversal switches (one for each PUp) where the five-way goes, a three position LP style switch to select neck, bridge or both, and the middle tone is wired to fade in the mid pickup into any combination. It's pretty simple but has an awsome range of sounds...

Very interesting thanks Food for thought but I don't know how easyto find or how cheap they would be to play around with...

Thanks alot guys I think I've solved my computer problems ...for now. Not my forte' I'm afraid Anyways, great to see the interest is still here. I've been working with LK on driver ideas and have developed a HEX driver based on the CP6x magnetic structure but with micro components. This is still extremely experimental to get it this small. It does want to work, and though I haven't done extensive tests, I think it can be made to work. It is the first fully realized hex driver and it is my baby at the moment. The image was made on a scanner with the kid's nappy thrown over it and that really is about the size of it! I've learn't a few things about manufacturing it and I think the next prototype needs to be a little bigger (1-2mm) and longer so that the wires don't foul the trem. I'm sorry to disappoint, but at this moment I don't wish to reveal how the x series works other than to say that it has a unique magnetic structure as described elsewhere in the thread. Biohazard - good to see that I still have your attention. I do believe that it could work as a active pickup but would need special (though probably not complicated) preamps for each of the drivers. How it would sound, I'm not sure. Such a system could be used with a analog to digital converter to send midi out. The problem with this is the natural tracking delay caused by the processing speed of the A/D converter (but these are getting cheaper and faster). I had thought of this (in my wildest dreams!) as I thought, it would be cool to use if only to program a sequencer rather than a keyboard - not in real time - and then apply different sounds to these sequences... But complicated for now and I now can feel LK's presence reminding me to keep it simple... If you have the where-with-all to make such a circuit, perhaps we could collaborate on something. Meanwhile, check out the patents, Gibson's got a new one on this that's pretty weird. Since it's active anyway, and you don't have to worry about the real world sound quality, the coils need not be too large. This is an application for which rare earth magnets may be ideal and perhaps I could help you on that. The x series drivers came out of the frustration of trying to wind by hand tiny coils and I have a jar of failed ones to remind me not to do it again. Perhaps you should look at saddle mounted piezo system like Godin use to trigger the midi signal. I want to work on something like this myself and have had some thoughts. OK, so I won't tell you how the driver actually works, but I did want people to know that I havn't given up and these things and that they do actually exist. It will take a bit of fiddling around but thanks MikeB I'll see what I can do to demonstrate that these things not only look cute, but have a sound. The unwanted noises and transitions may give you guys some ideas for fixing them, especially those people that work with amps. Barney115 - as I recall these are based on the 386 chip as in my test system (unfortunately I can't get my strat on the scanner!!) and are well worth a try. LK propositioned that a lot of the details in the patents were hogwash, if so, it should work in a fashion. I don't think theres much chance of hurting it but don't try driving with a conventional pickup is my advice. The Floyd patent which I listed in my patent links has all sorts of stuff in it. LK's thoughts on compressors and probably noise gates (theres an example from Ansil somewhere on this thread) are also components that may improve things if the amp isn't enough. Where did you get to buy the kramer driver anyway??? Matt - I started getting into this stuff from experiments in pickup designs that used rare earth magnets. There is a thread on this forum somewhere, which I started, regarding them. This mean't I could make small powerful pickups. Unfortunately it doesn't quite work as simply as that. The pickups output power comes from the number of windings detecting the changes in a magnetic field. While you could make six drivers that together were more powerful than conventional designs (that's not to say they would sound good), you really need a coil the size of a conventional pickup for each string (ie 6 times the size of a normal PUp) to get that kind of individual output. Or am I wrong..hmmm...it would obviously have a low impedance and outputso would have trouble sending the signal down the guitar lead. I did see a guitar somewhere that a guy in england made which had six strat style single coils one running along each string. I think it was Ansil that mentioned relay coils being used to make one. I remember the original thread from the pickup makers forum. The reason that you need six fuzzes etc is that, as you probably know, chords tend to turn to mush when fuzzed up so that each string is not distinct and therefore need to be treated separately. They may even require separate amplifiers too as the distortion will mush up at the speakers. Fuzz circuits are pretty simple and themselves work as preamps. Perhaps someone can point Matt in the right direction. I'm not sure why you'd want to wind different guages particuarly? If, like me Matt, you want to try it out anyway and prove that it can be done I have some suggestions. (Partly out of self interest as my driver may require a hex PUp for best results) If you have the ability to wind coils this fine (43 or 41) and can make bobbins...start a thread like this one and, like me, you'll be surprised how many people will inspire you with there 2 cents and keep you interested. Then begin by making single string coils, just as I have been doing with my drivers to see what kind of output you can get. Run it through a stock fuzz box if you like. If you can make it a practical size (you can test them over the top, rather than under the strings) then make up six of them and you're ready to rock. You'll probably sound just like Brian May from queen, or whoever. Anyway, that took my mind off a very stressfull day...thanks... and read only as much as you want...I just free associate here! It's a kind of therapy! Good night from Oz...or good morning, where ever you may be psw P.S. I'll be in touch LK

Hi Guys Having trouble at work and trouble with my computer so no time just now! perhaps later this week by the way Can you post sounds? if so, how so also picture of latest HEX prototype and questions answered soon till then psw

G'day Guys I'm amazed at how many people want a sustainer! Especially since you hardly ever here it on the radio or talked about by the Guitar Gods! OK so here's where I fit in. I am actively working on the ultimate sustainer driver. It is very much in development phase but if you check out the extended thread you can see the progress as it happened. Basically I was able to get working prototypes of half the present size of sustainers. At one point I was able to make a leap from conventional driving means to a new way. This was the x series and it's workings remain secret. Basically it enabled me to make miniture drivers. At present I'm waiting on components to make a micro driver, about 3mm high by 3mm wide. I am working in collaboration with Lovekraft on suitable driving means and once the driver is sorted, we should see some more rapid progress (or at least alot of debate!) again This is the aim of "The Project": > A miniature design to fit seamlessly to the instrument and playing style > No restrictions on pickup type, selection or playing techniques > Little or no modification to the instrument > Unique new natural effects > Low battery consumption, preferably rechargeable I realize that this is a tall order but I believe it can be done and from my work so far, it looks very promising. Perhaps one day it will be the exception not to have one fitted. We are seeing a move towards piezo pickups as standard for acoustic sounds so it may not be so far fetched! So there's my place in this. Don't let it stop you from exploring current systems as it's quite a way off yet see ya psw

Great little circuit link Matt, I particuarly liked the "Ruby" version. We've been using pretty much a similar circuit to test the ideas here. It's probably true that a sustainer can be made in this way. However, like current sustainers you would probably have to sacrifice a pickup and only be able to use the pickup furthest away from the driver coil due to Electromagnetic radiation. Along with a range of other prob's that I'm trying to overcome! Since your interested in the Hexaphonic stuff, you may be interested in what I've been proposing with LoveKraft - A Hexophonic Driver. As a driver is similar to a pickup, some of my work has been exploring this field. You would need to preamp the output. Some have made PUp's out of six relay coils. You would need to run each separately into it's own preamp/fuzz circuit then off to the amp. For everyone else and LK , I've got a few commitments holding me back at present but am putting together a Hex version of the CP6x. I'm having problems getting it thin enough, I've got it down to 6mm, but it is still too high to fit on top of the strats scratch plate. I need to lose about 1.5mm but some components, which I modify myself, can only be made so small. If you recall, I'm trying to get a device that not only works better and does not alter the function of the guitar (eg pickup selection) but adds to it, I'm trying to make it suitable for just about any guitar without modification. The test instrument being used is a strat and see the driver being DS taped to the pickguard either just ahead of the bridge or the bridge pickup. Anyways, that's part of why I have'nt posted for a while keep up the interest, things are still happening psw

=o) I'm Back I was getting a little jaded there...spent a week in the rain surrounded by 'roos...good circuit breaker. I'm also back with a new (well, pentium I) computer with scanner and USB ports so communication should be easier down this end and the explanations of stuff better illustrated...maybe even some photos or sound bytes, we'll have to see. Meanwhile...I've got a choice of drivers from my experiments. It's time to move onto a way to drive them effectively. Conventional amplification works but is suseptable to runaway feedback/oscillation. This is reduced by my driver designs that seek to contain EMI but can't eliminated as there would be no force emmitted to drive the string. Also, using a single pickup to sense multiple strings but the drive singles gets it confused and it is much less effcient. We had been exploring filters but I think I've come up with some other ideas including a way in which the driver can also be used to sense and drive the string. So...I've not given up on this yet hope there is still some interest as I could use some help cheers psw

Hi Bio...I'm back so for any one interested...go here Patent Search Screen and select quick search... in one term I put in hex and the other guitar...that is a search of hex AND guitar... you should end up with something like this... hex AND guitar you get 73 hits...I looked at a couple and picked out #45... Synthersizer Type Hex pickup guitar From this, the first part describes older patents referenced by this patent. This is to demonstrate that they have something new. You can use this to surf back to something more relavant.... Holland Patent Hang on...that looks like something I'm working on...hmmm Anyway you get the idea... The trick is to think laterally... They don't often use a term like hex Even guitar is a stringed musical instrument They will sometimes use the word pickup but often transducer is used Another way to look for stuff is to pick an inventor or a company that holds patents on known things and use that to launch from... Humbucker...Gibson Tremolo...Floyd Rose Ebow...Heet By clicking on the blue Referenced by field you get a search of patents since this one that have referenced it... "Referenced By" search something like this... Polyphonic pickup appears to relate to Gibsons new digital guitar just released... After a while of doing this you get to learn "Patent Speak" and pretty soon you'll make no sense at all and use a hundred different words for a pickup! Anyway, hope this is of some help...let me know psw

Just thought I'd post an update... In an effort to reduce the height of the driver and to address these EMI issues a little I've come up with yhr CP8y This driver element uses similar technology to the x series driver elements. It seems to require more power to run but then outputs less EMI. Part of the reason may lie in it's smaller size (about 5mm high). I don't think i'm goning to be able to make them much smaller! For the first time, I also set two up as a two string driver to explore the elements use in this way. I discovered some really interesting phenomena in the course of testing that may help the x series drivers should I decide to go back to them for their power efficiency. I can think of a couple of variations of this new driver based on my experience with the x series so that will give me something to work on. So...the state of play down here...As of last night I was able to run any two strings (two string driver) from about the centre PUp position on a cheapo single coil strat with a driver small enough to be attached to the scratchplate with no EMI using the neck or bridge pickups. Therefore I have in theory matched current technology in driver design and surpassed it in being able to use diferent PUps and combinations and being small enough to install without any modifications to the instrument. Sometimes I need to remind myself of how far I've come with a project! I think that it's time to tidy up the driving amp question. Like the driver, it may require a novel approach. Simple is best and I don't really want to use gates, etc to tame the thing down. I need a buffer to isolate the guitar signal and not load it down... I need an power efficient amplifier as I think that battery drain may be excesive... I need some control over the effect and switching that is user friendly... I had been thinking that if the amp and controls - like the drivers - could be miniaturized they could be built into a single enclosure requiring only the addition of a battery or a secondary surface mount control unit...any ideas? I need to do more testing and less thinking I fear...will be away from the soldering iron and the computer for a while...going up the country and down to the coast...that should give the old brain a rest and perhaps I'll return from a different angle see ya, mates psw

LK - the circuit I'm using has a 100 uf cap on pin 6, I'll try the parallel cap but a little skeptical as it works from the neck pickup idicating that, if far enough away from an active pickup it does work. I suspect the "tone" is the resonant frequency of the driver. Have tried various devious shielding means to little effect a 470uf across the +/- changes the pitch but not lose it. Could it be a ground loop - I've got the preamp wired to the amp both in power and signal, both with a 100uf to ground - ?? Seems like the theory that between the string the pickup and the driver the resonant frequency of the dominant element wins out - in this case the string - If left to squeel the string vibrates an harmonic octave above and takes over. Getting disheartened here check you later psw P.S. Southpaw - Don't worry about the technical stuff, I'd like to know what you would like a sustainer to look and sound like...