psw

The BOND guitar was a plastic, electronics laden flop... It had however a really interesting fretboard. They called it a stepboard I think, as it had little slopes up to where the fret would be, then fell away sharply so as to rise up to the next fret. What I always liked was the idea of being able to mould the board, radius and frets in one go! Perhaps even the truss rod and carbon fibre for strength. I've had a little experience in fibreglass and molding (pickup bobbins, etc). Anyone got any ideas on epoxies etc that could stand the where and tear and not get worn away by the strings??

Can someone explain how it works!!!!!!!! Also, what about those little signal diodes????? Would they produce an effect?

Sure would, GregP. At the moment I'm making a HEX pickup. Six tiny coils on their side!!!! Because the magnet is not directed at the string but along it it doesn't have the same pull on it. Something along these lines was used by gibson on the Les Paul Recording and their Ripper Bass. The powerful magnets, if not interfering with the string mean less turns of wire. What you could get is a low impedance pickup with a strong output. But remember to only use tiny RE mags. My prototype hex coil has a RE core of 3mm x 4mm and I'm not pointing it at the string! I started a new thread on sustainer ideas but its a tricky problem!!! I've got them to work in principle but almost burnt my fingers due to the amount of power I was putting into the coil (about 10 watts!)

I'm not sure if this is of any help. I've taken apart double gang pots (one shaft turns both pots at once) and replaced the guts of one with that of the value that I want. Most pots are a standard size. Many are held together by bent strips on the outside case. Bend them up and insert the resistance 'circle' of the odd value that you want. Are dual concentric the ones with two knobs on the one shaft? If so I have had no experience but a similar approach might be possible. Good luck!

Ansil Have you anything on DIY delays or reverbs. Analoge or digital? There seems to be a problem getting chips, etc for stuff. Can you point me in the direction of using cheapo samplers. I think I saw that you had done stuff with them. Any use as a delay?? Keep up the good work and good luck with your shop.

Here's a thought. I've been using cheap nail polish to isolate PU wires etc. The stuff I found doesn't seem to effect plastics (on the bobbins) and the remover say's non-acetone. It drys fast, tough and comes in fashionable colors!!!! You would want to try it out first though in case the stuff you find eats your PU covers

Primal I know where your coming from, sort of But, if the thing pulses it must do so at some kind of frequency, yeah??? My idea of using vibrating motors to shake the bridge was like that. I was hoping that the strings would move from that alone. I found some in Hong Kong from a manufacturer who is prepared to send some samples for free but the freight is about US$50!!!!! LOvekraft had some valid concerns about standing waves, etc. so perhaps it wouldn't work

Does anyone know of a sound byte of Ansil's sustainer mod? I have been using a 30mm "piezo transducer" which has no electronics in it and is easy to get apart. Does anyone have any other sources of piezo materials. I have been cutting them up for some experiments but you dont get much out of them cause they're round! nonamemx Give us some feedback on it's performance.

Hey primal good suggestion! I'm not sure what you mean't but I built a DIY effect called a twang-o-matic that is basically a half wave amplifier. It sounds a little like a resonator guitar. Anyway, this only amplifies the positive side of the wave so as to create a kind of "ping" signal if you like. The problem with it is that the driving coil charges and relaxes slower than you want but there is potential there I think. or did you have in mind actually hitting the string? Thanks for joining in, more ideas please

Lovekraft Thanks for your input, I really appreciate your time and effort. I guess I've read too many patent docs. Perhaps I am over concerned about the phase relationships. That's exactly why I am so intriged by the ebow: its so simple yet it works! I think I'll mock one up or get one to study how it performs. Rock on!

daveq Never tried one but there was a great flexidisc promotion in guitar player many years ago. This model is the only sustainer system that allows you to patch effects into the drive signal which is cool. As it does not rely on batteries it has a lot of power and a little smarts. As it is on the end of the neck it is far enough away from the pickups to avoid problems and, it uses the leaverage of the neck to vibrate the whole instrument! I hear that it feels like the gyuitar is alive in your hands!!!!

Ok so this is what I mean.... "Maybe I'm thick, but I have no idea what that means (in real terms, applied to a sustainer). Wouldn't simply reversing the leads get your signal in phase? I do know that speakers, pickups and vari-tones are all inductors running AC signals, and no insurmountable problems exist. Perhaps I'm missing something". Comparing the phase difference between the current and voltage through and across each component, notice the following: For a resistor, there is no phase difference; for a capacitor, there is a +90 degree phase diference and for an inductor there is a -90 degree phase diference.from Practical Electronics for Inventors by Paul Scherz Basically, it takes time to create the magnetic field and then to reverse it, it needs to fight the polarity and then re establish the new field. By the time this occurs, the physical vibration of the string has already changed. The field is working against the movement of the string. A 180 phase reversal would cancel it out (ie stop the string (at least at the fundumental). As you described earlier, with enough power from a loud amp, the string can be forced into phase (locked at 0 degrees phase) by physically altering the movement of the string but this takes a bit of work, meanwhile the signal is dying away (there is often a compressor in the sustainer circuitry to keep this up) A compressor or a fuzz's natural compression is large factor in getting natural feedback, not only the square wave. The phase difference accounts for some notes to feedback more easily than others and to change as you move about as the time it takes to get from the speaker to the string compensates for the phase. I hope this helps. I thought that perhaps a PPL could be used to compensate phase diffence in the driving circuit. oh yeah, and the phase difference is related to frequency. The higher the frequency, the less time between cycles to relax the field and reverse it. The Floyd Rose patent swiched in various capacitors via a frequency analyser. Inductors -90 capacitors +90. In tone circuits the inductors are sending signals to ground so phase does not matter!

Sorry about the spelling!!! type in a hurry at 4am before work!!! Actually I'm old enough to remember the gizmotron and actually played one! I couldn't afford, nor did I want one, but I stole my flatmates electric toothbrush, cut a slit in it to insert a pick and...instant Dick Dale!!! of course due to the motors hum you got a constant G note through the pickups!!!! you have some good points but... Inductors under AC conditions are out of phase with the actual movement of the string. While with enough power at the fundumental frequency it can be forced into locking into phase, initially the electromagnet is working against the vibration. This dampening effect will reduce the signal so that the necessary power to lock on is lost and the note dies away. The phase variance accounts for the feedback being sensitive to various positions in a room or angle to a loud amp for different notes to work. Your right about it being easier to drive a string from its centre but the EMI is a problem. I would have thought that the ebow's PU coil was just as likely to pick up EMI and RF signals as any other. It's closeness to it's own driving coil should surely cause problems? Is it because any interferance to the pickup is amplified but does not impede on the strings vibrations as it is not related to it's frequency? Why doesn't the radiation of the driving coil not get picked up by the guitars output pickup and get sent to the amp as an audio signal anyway? It is right over the PU coil afterall! How do you mean it drives the pickup and the string requiring less power? The original ebow patent showed a built in version. Effectively six ebows! I noticed that the drivers had to be isolated by an iron block. A more recent sustainer patent shows a driver with another coil with an "error signal" to cancel out the radiation effects. I have a DIY effect called a twang-o-matic (sounds a bit like a drobo) that is basically a half wave amplifier. I thought I could use that as a drive signal as a grab and release type of effect. The driver soon becomes magnetised though to one polarity as it hasn't had time to relax before the next positive wave. square waves are generally best. I test these ideas using a tone generator on the computer to a one string guitar tuned to the frequency so I can try any wave shape or combinations. I don't know that I agree about the harmonic mayhem. The RE magnets I use a powerfull but I only use tiny ones! I dont see it as being anymore powerfull than a conventional pickups mags. Infact the sustainers mags could attenuate the guitar pickup's own natural magnetic field to heighten the effect without adding magnetisim. My early experiments where brute force was used to drive the string always played sharp. Static or electromagnet, its much the same! Newer generation string drivers use coils mounted sideways to cut back on radiation cutting the guitar PU coils and to reduce pull on the string. I would propose a similar thing with the piezo vibrated magnets mounted a right angles to an adjacent pickup. This would cause a distortion in the existing field without extra pull! As for the hurdy-gurdy. Ever played the guitar with a bow a-la Jimmy Page. The rosin don't half make a mess on your axe Thanks for the feedback, it's making me think some more, or maybe I'm thinking too much! P.S. Anyone know about phase-locked loop chips? I heard Boss used one in their distortion/feedbacker mini pedal. Maybe theres an application here

Thanks guys for the interest. keep it up Stahler. Ansil's sustainer mod, as he is at pains to explain does not drive the strings. Ive made one but have yet to fit it to the guitar. The idea is to feed the signal back into the pickup, not provide infinite sustain. I'll explain what it sounds like once I get around to loosening all the strings, etc. Lovekraft. The ebow is a classic simple design. I don't quite get why you don't get wierd noises or phase cancellations given the simple circuit. I've moved on from using the brute force of my original experiments. I've done extensive patent searches on the subject. See Floyd Roses sustainer patent for instance to get an idea of the phase problems and interfence assosciated with it. These sustainers are fitted to the neck PU but can only operate when using the bridge pickup because of this radiation. (eg sustaniac/ fernandes) Why the ebow does not appear to suffer from this problem is a mystery to me. Perhaps it is because you can manually move it to different places along the string and that, as it is only sensing and driving one string, it requires less power. The heavier driving coil is because of the heat generated will inevitably burn through normal winding wire. You need quite a bit of current to vibrate the string. Heat is also energy lost. The idea of using piezo's to move magnets beneath the string is that you don't have these problems, nor the effects of an inductor under AC conditions. The piezo could not in itself drive the string (too much power required) but a permanent magnet moved at the resonant frequency by a piezo would create a similar effect as a magnetic pulse from a coil without the complex circuitry and power requirements. Here's an interesting experiment. My last bright idea was to make a small coil through which the string is threaded. The signal is amplified and sent through the string. The string is alternately attracted or repelled by the pickups field or a set of magnets placed just after the bridge. It worked under crude test conditions but not very effectively as the string is not the best conductor once it has left the coil and the metal parts of the bridge absorb the magnetism somewhat. Quite a bit of power was required but the coil was very compact (5mm dia x 25mm). The pickup also picked up the magnetic signal. Keep the feedback coming!

Sustainer Ideas I've started this topic to continue some discussions from the topic on Rare Earth Magnets and to share ideas, experiences or links on the subject. Sustainer systems have always got to me! They appear to offer not just a means of feedback but a whole new dimension to the instrument. If only someone could get them to work effectively! Heres a your chance to contribute Many years ago I wound a crude coil and ran the guitar output to both my amp and a trashed hi fi amp. The output of this went directly to the coil placed beneath the strings. It worked!!!!!!!!!!!! However some notes better than others, but still it worked!!!!!!!!!!! Only one drawback. Within minutes the coil heated up like a bar radiator and proceded to melt the electrical tape holding it together. The strings really heated up and the whole thing threatend to catch on fire! Still it worked!!!!!! I've got some recordings somewhere to prove it. Would make a great stage act! Any one got experience and info or reference to other stuff on this site or any other, please post here!

Thought that too Individual coils and piezo drivers with separate driver stages for each string is where I'm heading at the moment. The motors wouldn't work I fear! The coil driver across all strings though stimulates them all equally with the same frequency. Separate drivers pickups and amps for each string would appear to be more efficient for the reasons you mentioned, especially if the phase difference created by the inductor of the driving coil (that varies with freq) is overcome. The result I hope would be more even sustain (notes not winning out within chords) and a more efficient driving system. With use of piezo drivers I hope to get around the complex electronics required to align the phase shifts and some of the EMI from the use of coil drivers. Perhaps I should start a new thread on sustainer ideas as this is getting away from the posted topic of Rare Earth Magnets.

Thanks Lovekraft Looks like the ultimate surf guitar (love that stuff) but I imagine feedback would be a problem and strange squeeks would eminate whenever the trem was used!!!!!!!!! The trick to making motors sustain strings would be to vary their speed with frequency. I think perhaps that could be impractical but would make an interesting auto subtle but true vibrato similar to a chorus effect. Not actually what I was going for. Anyone got any good sources for piezo materials other than canabalising buzzers?? I bought out the local of piezo transducers which are great (about 30mm round on thin brass sheet). What I need are thin strips to bend into "spring" like elements to maximize movement of the magnets. Any ideas?

oh yeah Here's another idea. I'm trying to get a hold of the miniture vibration motors used in mobile phones. These can be as small as 4-5mm, have ammazing speeds ad very low emissions I thought of drilling into the sustain block or mounting them inside the centre trem spring to cause the bridge to vibrate and drive the strings. Perhaps 2 to create more complex vibrations. Any Thoughts guys?

Ansil, Hi The hex pickup / relay idea is on the pickupmakers forum. I was wondering how they would sound though. Have you actually made this? Also how effective is the split humbucking Z coil thing? Different polarities for 2 pairs of three strings? I know it's used a bit on basses! Also. My latest idea for sustainer devices goes along the lines of a piezo element that vibrates these small magnets below the strings causing the magnetic field to fluctuale and sustain the string like the electromagnetic coils currently made. Would this not solve the phase problems, power requirements and reduce the amount of EMI and eliminate RF in the system? Also, I imagine you could run it backwards so that the magnets, vibrating in sympathy with the strings would cause a piezio signal for an acoustic type of sound! How great would that be!!!!!! I imagine a set up where the centre pickup in a strat is replaced with this or, made small enough, stuck to the guitar at an optimum location under the srings with no alterations to the guitar at all! One other thought. Would it not be that bending a peizio element into a concertina shape produce a more dramatic (multiplying) movement of the peizio. A kind of peizio spring. Anyway, some food for thought! Am still working on these ideas Any sugeestions anyone?????

Thanks guys I'll try to keep the thread. I'm new to this chat stuff so bear with me! psw

Rare Earth Magnets These are also known as Neodymium Iron Boron. Yes they are very powerfull and expensive - However because of this power you don't need to have magnets of the same dimension so for a similar power to alnico the cost is very competitive. One of the major problems with pickup winding is the obtaining of suitable magnets. I live in Australia so the choices can be minimal however it is a problem everywhere as you will see on other sites on winding. As I am more interested myself in building a better mousetrap, sorry pickup , the fact that they are so small opens up a huge range of options for new designs. Anyway. A Rare Earth Magnet the size of a strats polepiece would suck the string down to the pickup and you might find it difficult to get off! I've been experimenting with discs of 5mm x 1.5mm and 3mmx2mm so far. You can stack them to make even more powerfull magnet and/or attach them to various types of magnetic materials (steel, nails, rivits, staples, refrigerators, etc) to create different core shapes. And this is the key to pickup design. It is not so much the power of the magnet but the shape of the magnetic field, and the coil within it, that creates it's sound. Consider this. Humbucking pickups use steel slugs and screws to direct the field through the coils and towards the strings from a bar magnet below. The same is used on the cheapest single coils where you see a large ceramic magnet below. Real single coils have internal magnets and a deep coil. Why are these "better" because it is the shape of the field and the coil design that gives much to the classic strat sound. In short : Rare earth magnets, because of their small size to power ratio means that you have new possiblities to explore in manipulating the shape of the magnetic field and the size and shape of the coil. My experiments include moulding pole pieces from epoxy containing pure iron powder and a rare earth magnet within. This is an attempt to utilize advanced transformer principles to heighten sensitivity to changes in the electromagnetic field and to create cores in any shape I want. I think the best advice for anyone trying to reproduce a classic pickup design is to copy it completely. However, if your up to stepping into the unknown check these out PSW p.s. (we use metric down here and it's a lot easier for small dimensions even though I was brought up on feet and inches check out the stonehenge scene in spinal tap to see what can go wrong!. 5mm= about 1/4 inch

Great site. Just an introduction to myself. I have been playing around with the guitar for some 30+ years. From time to time I get obsessed with a couple of ideas and have been experimenting with them fairly full-on for the past 2 years. I have built a number of pickup winders, I am experimenting with Rare earth Magnets I am detirminded to create a sustaining device to drive the strings like the ebow, sustaniac or fernandes systems. I am a complete nutter when it comes to experimenting with the wiring of my numerous strat copies. Congratulations on the site. It's great to see some like minded individuals working together. I hope I can contribute something and I look forward to getting some feedback to help with my experiments. cheers psw psw@dodo.com.au