Crusader

Agree with Narcissism, need to wrap around although I would say 3 or 4 times is enough Btw I found my guitar was a biatch to tune but once I got it there it would stay in tune for ages after heavy bends and the sorts. After a while I realised the nut slots were too tight, but it gave me ideas about a self-locking nut......mmmmm

I always do things the hard way and have the guitar almost finished before I route the pickups I set the bridge and tailpiece up and put on the first & sixth string so I can line up the pole pieces accurately. I measure the depth I need for the routing and if I need to, I cut the screws shorter By the way, excellent choice of pickup!

I've got "Gruhn's Guide To Vintage Guitars" but I can't find much on that serial number, especially the "H". It would help if they showed the serial number on the back of the headstock Would still be pretty nice to have though!

Please forgive me people for one last post. I have come up with a better way to explain what I’m saying which I hope will answer massive propagator and the whole concept in general It all hinges on what a college physics lecturer told me ten years ago (I should have mentioned this before but my mind has been too focused on other things) He said something to the effect "Due to the tension in a guitar string, pressing your finger on a fret is not enough to stop it vibrating in its natural harmonic series" (I don't think the whole series would still be there, only that which can be supported by the string length behind the fret you're playing) So what I’m saying is this When you play a fretted note you create a new set of harmonic series which is superimposed over the other. The 2nd octave node is a point where both harmonic series are in sync To hopefully clear things up for Massive Propagator (talking about pickups) as Prostheta said earlier on So the pickup doesn’t “hear” the whole string but that one small area and because there are less conflicting vibrations at that point, you get a cleaner tone If anyone still has questions please send me a pm cheers

When I said 'frequency' I was referring to 'pitch' On the E string the length from the bridge to the 24th fret is a half-wavelength which on its own gives you E. When you double that length you get E an octave lower. When you triple that length you get A and four times that length is E, the open string I think what you are getting at is there are nodes all along the string, so the position of the pickup is not relevant. But if you move the pickup along to another node, you may get the same effect but only for one note. With the pickup on the second octave you capture the nodes and antinodes for every note you play. And as I said before, its not conclusive but I think it holds a lot of weight to my theory I was going to let this topic go ages ago but if people have questions I think its curtious to answer them, and if people accuse me of being full of bull I will endeavor to prove I'm not I won't take offence to your remark though because I would also like to end this thread. I have to agree with Ben when he said earlier that there's too many factors involved and lets put it in the too-hard-basket

No, wavelengths and frequencies are not always the same. Remember I am talking about upper harmonics, not the fundamental. I was in error in an earlier post when I used the term "fundamental" and I did point that out Think about how you tune from string to string at the 5th fret On the 6th string the open string is E At the 24th fret you have 1/4 of the string which is "E" (the second octave) At the 12th fret you have 2/4 of the string which is "E" (the first octave) At the 5th fret you have 3/4 of the string which is "A" Each of these have a different fundamental wavelength but they all share the fundamental wavelength of the second octave E as an upper harmonic (You could say 3 x E = A) I don't know if that explains it well enough but I hope so, cheers

I may need to clarify what I've said When you play a fretted note, the new string length will have its own set of harmonic series. The wavelengths that are reinforced are the ones which both sides have in common So when I put the cappo on really tightly, the string behind the fret is reinforcing a different wavelength which has different positions for nodes and antinodes, but they were always there Also, different wavelengths have different lengths but no matter which fret you play on, (as shown in the diagram I put up) there will be a wavelength that both sides have in common and they have a node or an antinode at the 24th fret Yes but I may have said "frequencies" when what I mean is 'wavelengths' or 'half-wavelengths' Everyone seems to agree that the pickup on the 2nd octave node works for the open string but not for fretted notes. What I'm showing is there are always nodes or antinodes over that point that relate to the note you are playing Btw thanks for that link, I'll have a look at it In the past few days I've kept researching this 2nd octave node thing and found some surprising outcomes. But when you look at it a different way its quite obvious First of all when playing the open string, if you take the 1st octave (12th fret) every harmonic has a node or an antinode over that point. Think about it, if you divide the string by an odd number you get an antinode over the 12th fret and if you divide it by an even number you get a node. And a string will only vibrate in whole numbers (so to speak) At the 2nd octave every harmonic has an node, antinode or half-way between node and antinode. So if you have a wavelength that is half way, then at double the frequency you get an antinode. When playing a fretted note, the "theory" I'm suggesting requires a wavelength that both sides have in common, so the rules for the open string will apply. Or in other words the fret is on a node Now here's the killer. What if you use a slide? and you're half way between frets? Does the tone suddenly sound crap? Of course not... Theoretically (mathematically) there is always a wavelength that both sides have in common. For example take 12mm of a 628.65mm scale (24 3/4") 12 divided by 628.65 = 80/4191 (btw I've got a scientific calculator which converts decimals to fractions) This means the whole string is vibrating in 4191 half-wavelengths. The 12mm takes up 80 of them and the remaining string has 4111 The half-wavelengths are .15mm long so how many fit into 1/4 of the scale? 628.65/4 divided by .15 = 1047.75 The number ends in .75 which is half-way between a node and an antinode. So if you double the frequency you will get an antinode over the 2nd octave node No matter which length you try, you end up with a whole number or one that ends in .25 .50 or .75 Now I don't know if its physically possible for a string to vibrate in such small increments but the in any case the theory is there Also btw I tried the experiment with the cappo on another of my guitars and had the same result. Its not a huge difference because its not really a nut and theres no fret exactly in the right place so it takes a bit to notice the change in tone. What it sounds like to me is when the cappo is on, the note "rings like a bell" When it is off there are unwanted overtones I am convinced about this idea and what it means is you can have a 24 fret guitar and still get a true neck pickup sound just by putting a cappo on in the right place. The way to do it is measure from the bridge to the pickup pole piece then multiply by 4 Then measure from the bridge to the closest fret to that length and put a cappo on, really tightly close behind the fret. You may need to re-tune though. And if you don't hear a difference then try it over and over again. Then try it the next day, the next week... One day I showed my new guitar to a friend of mine. He couldn't tell the difference between the neck pu and the bridge. But after I explained it he goes "Ah yea, I can hear it now" In other words you sometimes need to "train your ear" to notice differences in tone

Something just occured to me that could need more clarification. When I did my experiment on the white guitar with the cappo If I play a fretted note, the nodes are going to be in the same place with or without the cappo on. And this is where I believe the string behind the fret must be having an effect When the cappo is on, the frequencies of the string length behind the fret are related to those nodes/antinodes (which occur over the pickup) and will give them support When the cappo is off, the string behind the fret is unrelated and will not re-inforce those frequencies (It is related to the frequencies which have nodes over the 24th fret)

Wasn’t sure what you were saying before but good point. When I talk about the string behind the fret re-inforcing the sound, yes it would affect the sound everywhere. Its just one factor in the whole theory I’m putting forward The 1st fret on my guitar is very close to 1/18 of the scale. That means the remaining string is 17/18 of the scale. These 1/18th partials are half-wavelengths and I believe their vibrations re-inforce each other. The main point is these wavelengths have nodes or antinodes over the 2nd octave node. When I did the experiment with the cappo I put it on very tightly, a lot more than you usually would. I was trying to simulate the angle of the headstock in order to create a shorter scale, which shifted the 2nd octave node over the pickup The 2nd octave node of a fretted note being played shifts up the fretboard but thats not what I'm talking about. The only 2nd octave node that has any importance is that of the open string. What I'm saying is the vibrations from the string partial behind a fretted note have wavelengths that have a node or antinode over the 2nd octave of the scale And I think the wider magnetic field would be beneficial Well I got around to setting out the main point of my theory here. I only did calculations up to the 12th fret but I hope it clears a few things up although I know there would still be questions

Good to hear your input guys. I hope I will clarify what I'm saying a bit First of all I'm pretty sure you'll find when you divide a string into two, there will always be wavelengths that will go into both parts. When I talk about vibrations from behind the fret I'm not talking about the sound, just the vibrations. And I'm suggesting these vibrations enhance the upper harmonics of the note being played. The first fret a little bit, the second a little bit more...and so on untill the 12th fret where its not just upper harmonics but where the wavelengths are the same as the note being played. (This is why I believe when playing on the neck pickup I find the sound gets better as you approach the 12th fret, then fades as you reach the 22nd fret) The problem of course is when you fret a note you also press the string onto the fret behind the one you want. So how does this affect the vibrations? This is where I'm not sure but I'd say the string partially vibrates transversely and partly longitudinally Now what I've found mathematically, the corresponding wavelengths on the pickup side always land on the 2nd octave node in antinodes, nodes or halfway between (I was previously saying nodes or antinodes) But consider this; in relation to the open string the 2nd octave node is not on a node or an antinode, its halfway between. Its on the antinode of the first harmonic, an octave higher When I did the experiment of clamping a cappo tightly on the second fret, I was trying to simulate the nut to have the effect of making the scale shorter. I have to admit it was hard to tell the difference at first but after a few comparisons with it on and off I was convinced. I had effectively put the pickup on the 2nd octave and therefore it had a nicer tone And this is what I did with the double bridge experiment; The second bridge was positioned so the neck pickup was on the 2nd octave node of the "secondary scale" The strings went lightly over the 1st bridge to simulate a fret I was trying to see if the pickup would "see" the secondary scale but play the note of the first scale And yes it did work, I got that creamy neck pickup sound...but with a kind of out-of-phase sound. Which is exactly what I'd say was happening Of course the other thing I did was drop the first bridge and played to the longer scale and yes that distinctive neck pickup sound was totally there. It was really funny how well it played with the intonation being out so much! I have to point out that I haven't got everything completely worked-out, but I know enough about physics and experience with the guitar to be sure there is something here

You need to buy a Stratocaster or Les Paul or Telecaster and compare the sound of the neck pu with your guitar

Putting theories aside, I don't know how you can't hear the difference between a pickup on the node compared to a 24 fretter (or an SG) to me it's not subjective. It doesn't matter what type of wood you use, type of strings, pickups, humbuckers or single coils. When a pickup is on the second octave node there is a distinctive sound (which you get all over the fretboard) And if you move it away from that point you get a similar sound but its not really "there" To find the reasons why you get this sound you simply have to look into vibrations & soudwaves and its only High-School level physics. After I did a few simple calculations it was like a light switched on and I can 'see' whats happening in my mind, but where I fall down is my ability to put it into words. I suppose I'm assuming other guitar makers would take the same interest in the physics of sound as I did Something to remember (I tried to say earlier) when I was first told about the neck pickup "sweet spot" I was also sceptical (because once you play fretted notes the node moves) But think about this, as you play further up the fretboard that 'creamy' sound gets better till the 12th fret then starts to fade, would you agree? So it actually helps the fretted notes more than the open string What I'm saying in a nutshell is; Vibrations behind the fret re-inforce the vibrations on the pickup side, and the finger pressing on the string is not enough to stop those vibrations passing through (whereas a nut or bridge would stop them to a greater extent) The second octave node is a point where these vibrations are best picked up because its where most nodes/antinodes collide (There are three "octave nodes" in this area but the 2nd octave node captures the longer, stronger wavelengths) I hope I can get around to drawing some graphs because illustrations speak a thousand words By the way here's another little experiment I did, can you see what I was trying to do?

Sounds like you're saying "Lets put this in the too-hard basket" LOL I've been trying to find answers from physics, however I don't think you have to go to such great lengths to draw conclusions. Here's a little experiment I did that anyone can try (Some people may try this and not notice any difference in tone but I've done it several times over the past few days and I am convinced) My Strat Copy has the neck pickup (Humbucker) roughly on the 2nd octave to the second fret and the inner coil is at the 2nd octave to the fifth fret. I put a cappo really tightly and very close to the second fret (to simulate a nut) and I did it also on the fifth fret (with the coils split) In both cases I got that distinctive neck pickup sound and it demonstrates even the pickup closer to the bridge will achieve it as long as it's at ¼ the distance of the bridge to "nut" length It also convinces me (when playing a fretted note) that vibrations behind the fret affect vibrations sensed by the pickup. When the cappo was on, I believe the vibrations re-inforced and when it was off, they were destructive Here's something I learnt about tuning car stereos for SQ that I think is relevant. My head unit reproduces frequencies way above human hearing but they have an effect on the sounds you CAN hear. Also when tuning the EQ, sometimes it's possible to have a flat spot in your midrange which can be fixed by adjustments from a higher frequency (because they were cancelling the others out) Think about the example they give in physics class where at a concert, in some seats the sound is great, while in others they can't hear much. In my opinion having the pickup at the 2nd octave node is like having a seat where the sound is just right

Someone had to say it LOL Yeah I got nodes on the brain But think about it, you gotta have nodes Nothing goes down without noddy!

Good point, I suppose the longitudinal waves would propagate into lateral waves once the string is free to vibrate wouldn't they? Think about it, when you pluck a fretted note, how do the vibrations get past your finger through to the other side? And my knowledge of Physics is that vibrations on the other side will travel back and re-inforce the initial vibrations Another important issue, the length of string behind the fret is muted by your finger. I think there's a law of Physics that goes " A string will resist attempts to stop it vibrating in its natural harmonic series" A way to prove this is by playing a string while damping it at the bridge. It still plays the same pitch untill you move your finger too far along or press too hard. My theory is that when the string can't vibrate laterally it carries on in longitudinal waves Psw your comments are what got me thinking onto what I believe is the right track. But I have to point out that I'm talking about vibrations from the other side of the string, not the sound. The sound isn’t harmonious but the vibrations are, in a mathematical sense Well yesterday I was doubting myself about the 2nd octave node being a "meeting place" for soundwaves. This occurs all along the string with even stronger nodal points, but what I realised today is that vibrations from behind the fret will only re-inforce frequencies equal or divisable to itself. This means that shorter wavelengths can become more prominent than longer ones. Frequencies that directly relate to the position of frets are all re-inforced at the second octave node, according to my knowledge of physics and mathematics There's lots more I could say but I gotta go

No comments? Do I have to pick on my own argument? (Or are you guys just getting sick of it?) I can easily poke holes in it! What if you move the nut to the first fret? Or made the scale one fret longer? All the same vibrations will occur, the pickup is still the same distance from the bridge, its just a bunch of mathematics! I just did the maths if you moved the nut to the 1st fret position. The nodes/antinodes are all on 148.46mm However what we want is the stronger vibrations (ie. the longer wavelengths) but even though the ones I’ve put up are directly related to the position of frets, they still aren’t very long. So I keep getting back round to the full string length having something to do with it I’m still convinced that although you play a fretted note, the true 2nd octave node still exists even if its very weak (This is where the "railway track" idea comes in) My theory is, because the other nodes are close to it they would re-inforce each other resulting in the strongest nodal/antinodal point in the pickup region Let me explain what I meant about railway tracks, what I had in mind was this. If someone hits a track with a sledge hammer, a person 5 miles away wouldn’t hear it unless they put their ear to the track. I’m theorising two things; (1) These types of sound waves exist in a string (and will have nodes) and, (2) The pickup will “hear” like putting your ear to the track I’m at my wits end to think of ways of proving anything really but there has to be a scientific reason for the sound you get from having a pickup on the 2nd octave node to sound the way it does Also I wanted to point out when I bought my first Les Paul in 1977 I don’t know if there were any 24 fret guitars around. I was just a 15yo kid who knew nothing and chose it purely by its shape. I wasn’t co-erced into buying it for any reason. I just pointed at a picture in a brochure and said “I want one of those” It was about 2 months later that I asked about 24 frets and it was explained to me that it wouldn’t sound as good The first time I heard the argument about neck pickup position is maybe a year or two later when there were lots of 24 fret guitars on the market. To me the “sales talk” is the other way round to what you guys are saying. I remember hearing (to the effect) “the sweet spot is a myth” These things evolve though and what I’m thinking is salesmen started saying that there were 24 fret guitars with the pickup on the sweet spot - Like some magician has found a place where you can get the same sound as it being on the 2nd octave node! I hope I've made sense in this post but one thing's for sure, if I make another guitar it will have the neck pickup on the "magic position" cheers Doug

Correction I'm not sure if using the term "fundamental" is correct And there are always nodes or antinodes at the 2nd octave node (even with a slide or fretless fingerboard) Its like the 2nd octave node is a "meeting place" for sound waves. I am sure this does not occur anywhere else in the length of the string (except maybe the 12th and fifth fret of course) My calculations are like this Gibson scale length, bridge to first fret = 593.85mm Bridge to neck pickup = 157.1625mm 593.85 x 4.5/17 = 157.195mm The antinode isn't right on the pickup but its close enough and every fret calculates using this formula using the apropriate fraction. But apart from that there is still an antinode or node right on the pickup Where did I get 4.5/17 from? It helps to know the old school stuff like the 1/18th rule If the first fret is 1/18th of the scale then the rest is 17/18th So the calculation is actually more like 593.85/17 = 34.93235 then times 4.5 = 157.195 For the second fret I use 8/9 for the third 5/6 but there are many ways to calculate natural harmonic notes. If we didn't use the tempered scale, and could use notes from the harmonic series then it would be perfect

There are always fundamental antinodes over the 2nd octave node Btw I don't worship the Gibson Corporation, the LP I have is the only guitar I have that I didn't make

I don't see anything "falling down" If by "other variables" you are talking about the fact that some guitars have a lot more string between bridge and tailpiece and others have none - I'm sure the string length beyond the nut and behind the bridge would have a very marginal effect on the sound (in regard to the concept I am talking about) The length between the bridge and the nut is much longer and therefore have the most effect. It seems to me that Gibson have gone "all the way" with this concept - which may or may not be necessarry The angle of the headstock etc plays an important role here too. If the nut, and the pressure on it was just like a fret, then the string length between bridge and tuning pegs would play a much more important role in the theory I am putting forward

The slanted pickup on a Strat has always made me ponder but I always just considered it a bit of a gimmick If its of any interest, what I found is this The pole on the 1st string is 40.5mm from the bridge (1/16 of the scale length which is a node/antinode) The pole on the 6th string is the same as if you had a humbucker (In the postion where most manufacturers put them - centre of pickup on the 1/16th node) But having a single coil there, its "no-where" Its things like this which make me conclude that the bridge pickup position is just a matter of personal taste Psw what you said about Hendrix is very interesting. I always just thought he played a RH guitar upside down to accentuate that he is left handed - in order to stand out from everyone else

While we've been discussing this topic it has prompted me to look and think deeper about the theory that was loosely explained to me 32 years ago When I left school I grew my hair and bought a Les Paul I asked the guy in the shop "Why don't they have 24 frets?" "The pickup wouldn't be in the best place...bla bla" "Yea but once you start playing fretted notes the pu isn't on the node any more" "No but it's still on the node of the full length of the string and therefore still has an effect on the sound" "Ah okay, I don't get it but if thats what they say...(but I will think about this!)" So it has been my mission all these years to prove or disprove this theory and I have to point out that I'm just speculating like anyone else. But maybe sometimes I could choose better words. I'm not trying to put accross my point of view as "fact" I do appologies if anything has come accross that way Yes thats right, I spent a lot of time experimenting with sounds from 'the other side' This is where I could have chosen better words but I wasn't talking about the sound from the other side. I was talking about the inaudible sound tavelling through the full length of the string I was just using railway tracks and sleepers as an example of how sound travels through metal even though it is muted. When you press a string down to a fret you mute part of the string. A railway track is like if you put a cappo between every fret. Even if you did that, sound would still travel through the string What I'm tying to say is there are two different types of vibrations going on when you strum a chord or pick a note There are the vibrations which produce the audible sound, but there is also inaudible vibrations which will travel through the string just like a railway track. And it will travel all the way between the tailpiece and the tuning pegs Massive propagator I took a few measurements off my Les Paul today and here's what I found Distance between tailpiece and middle of headstock - 780mm 780 divided by 4 equals 195 Guess what the distance is from the tailpiece to the neck pickup? Okay so only the 2nd and 5th strings are on the 2nd octave node of the full length of the string but I think it's quite obvious what the designers were aiming at So to sum it up so far, what I am suggesting is the inaudible vibrations from the the full length of the strings will re-inforce the audible sound when the pickup is at points where their nodes coincide Its just a theory but I think it makes sense

Are you referring to the string that goes from the nut to the tuning pegs and from the bridge to the tailpiece? I agree that they have an effect on the tone of the instrument. Notice how you rarely see headless six string guitars? I would say the bridge and the nut are more of a "cut-off" point than the frets. And the strings between the bridge and the nut are longer and have the most effect

Router There's a link on here somewhere with pictures that uses a router http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...t=0&start=0

Well after 3 nights in a row of drinking I should be right to make comments again! Yeah the humbucker vs sc is an issue always on my mind too, but I think as long as one coil is over the right spot the other just adds to the sound. It would be interesting to hear what it sounds like if the inner coil was over the node Anyway, on the theory that the full length of the string always has an effect on the nodes. Think about railway lines, they don't visibly move (vibrate) but sound will travel through them for miles even though they are nailed to chunks of wood all along the way (isnt that like frets?)

Talking about nodes and antinodes (okay I lost my physics books somewhere in the last decade or two and I can't remember which is which but;) Every node is also an antinode What the? Think about it. A string vibrates first of all the full length, then halves, then in thirds, then quarters and so-on up to infinity and this is where/how you get "upper harmonics" or "upper partials" and also how you get the "harmonic series" Looking at the graph that Notyou put up only depicts a string vibrating in halves. But when the sting vibrates in full length, the node in the middle becomes an antinode, thus becoming the stongest harmonic point RAI6 I wouldn't bother tying to calculate the perfect node. Someone a bit earlier says a mate of his is working for a company that is developing a computer program that calculates the "sweet spot" I'm sorry but thats the most rediculous thing I've heard in a long time. To find where the pickup works best, just try it in different places till you find the spot you like it the most! The ear is the best "instrument" for calculating the best sound (but as far as I'm concerned the guys in the old days got it right so why mess with it?) The other thing that keeps coming up - "When a sting is fretted that the neck pickup is no longer on the 2nd octave node" I keep saying (what was explained to me) that the string still vibrates on the other side of the fret and therefore still has an effect on the sound (its not like you've chopped the string off at the fret) In other words the antinode is not completely gone. Or maybe its the timber resonating under the length of the string that does it. Or maybe its all of these things in combination and thats what I believe (the string of course also vibrates all the way from the tailpiece to the tuning pegs but I don't think it has as much effect - something to talk about later) Two of my guitars have very similar neck pickups (my Strat Copy now has a SD '59) and has 25 frets. When comparing it to my Les Paul, the LP has a very distinct sound all over the fretboard that the Strat copy never comes close to (also to comment my strat has a Gibson scale length) The distinct sound that I'm referring to can be found on any guitar that has the neck pickup on the 2nd octave node, regardless of scale length However if you read all the previous posts it has been strongly pointed out that it has nothing to do with a pickup being on an antinode (thanks NotYou you're right about the terminology) It is merely because its further from the bridge. I'm still not completely convinced though! I think there were other things I was going to say but I worked a 12-hour shift today and I'm on the wagon again so if I say anything it would probably be more stupid than what I usually say Keep smiling!