SwedishLuthier

OK I’ve done the test.

I wound a strat pup and made up a jig that allowed me to suspend the pup over the strings on a strat between the original pups to decrease the influence of their magnetic fields). Over the pup (or under if the pup were to be mounted in a guitar) there were a piece of wood with steel inserts in one end. This piece can be mover, thus moving the inserts closer to/further away from the magnetic poles of the pup. The distance between the magnets and the steel were about 2mm, about the distance that I will use in the guitar to be. For amplification I had to settle with my guitar port, as my mesa rig isn’t available at the moment.

So what’s the verdict? Moving the steel had a clearly noticeable effect on the sound. A quite drastic dip in treble, almost the same feeling you get when somebody is moving in front of a speaker! But that was when the steel was in motion (sliding the piece of wood). When the steel was in place the effect was very subtle. A slight decrease in treble was audible, but not much. The biggest difference I noticed was when the steel inserts were at a 45 degree angle from the magnets, or beneath/beside the magnets so to speak. But even in this position the change was not big. Now remember that this was done with very crude amplification, so I might have to repeat the test in my real rig sometimes soon.

So for now I can say that my worries that the sound were going to be altered was right, but the effect was so small that I will probably just build the guitar with the steel inserts that I ordinary use. If a test with “the real thing” show any different results, I will post them here.

PRS CE guitars extend the bolt-on neck joint under the neck pickup with no ill-effect, although they are using humbuckers with bar magnets.

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HB pups have a quite different magnetic field, more or less with two different sides, one upwards embracing the strings, and one downwards that would be affected by the steel inserts.

A question: Does PRS use threaded steel inserts in the neck for those guitars? Do you know how they sound (compared with set neck versions of the same model, if there are any)?

Looks like we are on the same page. We just seem to have differing opinions on how this will effect what we hear.

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I have no clear opinion of how it will sound. I have only a few ideas and no hard facts. That why I asked from the beginning.

Do you have any sample sound clips of the tele with and without the steel plate?

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No sound clips, sorry. But a Tele without steel plate will loose some of its famous high end twang. Removing the plate makes a more unidirectional magnetic field and less high end bite. A piece of steel under the magnets of a strat pup might focus some of the magnetic field downwards (creating longer magnetic poles when the inserts become part of the magnetic structure), away from the strings. This MIGHT attenuate the high end response in the same manner as a steel plate beneath enhancing it. But I don’t know for sure. Pure speculations…

Are these inserts going to be touching the bottom of the pickup? I was under the impression they were not....

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Not touching, but in CLOSE proximity. The picture I drew was just a “quickie”

BTW - Unless your steel inserts are really high strength steel, you can easily find a brass out there that has the close to the same ultimate & yield strength of steel

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Yeah, I know, but I’m sooo happy with the way my current design works (ten years without any complaints), so I’m not to keen on changing it. Brass is my second option, if

1 the sound is altered in the test

2 I cannot find stainless steel inserts

The test is on its way. The rig is built, the flatwork for the pup is finished (yeah, I do my own flatwork for pups) and I will wind the pickup tonight. Tests result within a day or two

Why not contact the pickup maker, maybe they'll have a better idea whether this is an issue or not?

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As always good advices from you idch. I'll try that.

Then you haven't been looking too hard. Most guitars equipped with trems have a lot of steel under the pickups--trem springs, screws, claws, etc.

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OK that’s true. There are steel beneath the pickups, but not directly beneath. If you compare the distance to those steel parts you are referring to and the way I might have to build this guitar (look at the picture) there is a significant difference. If you are familiar with the laws of physics the magnetic field decrease a lot with distance. If I remember my university physics correct they decrease with the square of the distance. So the impact of a chunk of metal right beneath the pup will affect the sound much more, but I do not know in what way, and that’s why I started the thread. Hey, it might actually contribute to the sound!

Some even have neck joints where the pocket and screws wind up under the neck pickup.

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Now we’re getting somewhere!! What guitars? Do they have traditional wood screws/neck plate, or do they have the type of steel inserts that I use? What are the distance between the pups and the steel parts?

Yes, the magnetic field BELOW the pickup will be altered and will tend to go through the steel. But think about how pickups are designed and where your strings are vibrating. As a not so scientific test you could always just pluck a string and wave a chunk of steel around under the pickup and see what happens...I'll take a wild guess and say "nothing."

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Did you have a look at the Steven Kersting link? It shows how the magnetic field BELOW the pup is changed with the Tele steel base plate. And everyone knows that a Tele-pup sounds different if the steel plate is removed/added. BTW how would you wave a something under a pickup in an ordinary guitar?

Have anyone made/heard of comparisons between guitars with similar pups, but with/without metal beneath the pups in the way I describes? I haven’t but I was hoping that someone already had made the tests that I’m preparing. I have designed the test rig “in my head”, and will start the building today. It will have a SC pup mounted in a wooden frame, suspended above a strat. The rig will have a sliding piece of wood above the pup (opposite side from the strings). The slider will have steel inserts in one. By sliding the piece of wood I will hear EXACTLY what impact the steel will have on. Nevertheless it will take a few days to do the test, but I will publish the result here.

And for the record: I'm not sure the sound will change, but I prefer to know what will happen before I go on with the customers design

On a side note - I'll hopefully be comming over to Stockholm at some point next year (it'll be my first time back to Sweden since I was born).  Fancy a beer?

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PM me.

The problem is you are designing for abuse. Its seriously inflates the cost of any product.

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You’re right; I'm trying to come up with something foolproof. But then again fools are very inventive…

As I wrote I have had a lot of guitars in the shop with over tightened neck screws. The cost isn’t the main problem if I can use standard hardware items available. A few bucks, and 1/2 hour more work at most.

I’ll test it and get back. Better start up the winder tonight…

Why will it being a torx head put more force on the actual screw

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The torx will enable the USER to APPLY much higher torque on the screw compared to an ordinary screw head. This torque will put a lot more pressure on the threads. This pressure might destroy the threads on a brass insert. I have considered using brass inserts, but I have used steel inserts for more than 10 years and, if possible, prefer to stay with them. Call me unadventurous…

Wood screws don't strip out of a Strat/tele wooden neck under normal conditions.

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That’s simply not true. I have had numerous guitars in my shop where the screws have been over tightened (and that’s an easy thing to do) and the holes had to be filled and redrilled. This is a standard operation for most repairmen, and you will it on most of our prise lists, including mine.

VOICE OF REASON

Okay, it's probably NOT going to affect the sound of the guitar at all, at least in any noticeable fashion. Manufacturers have been using steel screws under pickups for years and nobody seems to complain that the guitars suddenly sound bad. Any distortion in the field is going to be towards the bottom and will probably not affect string sensing at all.

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The man has a point! Any change will be margial. Look at steel pickup rings....same deal.

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Steel screws under single coil pickups? I may have missed something but I have never seen it! A singe coil is made out of vulcanised fibre sheets (non magnetic), copper windings (non magnetic) and magnetic rods (magnetic). The screws are placed on the side of the magnetic field, not under, directly into the fibre. No metal at all UNDER the pup. And yeas, the humbucker use a metal plate under the coils, but it is made out of non magnetic material. The Tele bridge pup has a steel (magnetic) plate under the magnet rods, and everybody knows that removing this have a HUGE effect on the sound. I have tried this.

Also: Change from a steel base Tele bridge to a brass, and you WILL notice a difference in sound. I have tried that too

And remember that the bushings are no small piece of metal, like a pickup screw. They are about ½” wide and about the same length. Quite a lot of magnetic material, and much bigger then the magnetic rods themselves. What I think is that this steel would probably direct the magnetic field down and away from the stings quite a lot if placed directly against the magnetic rods. Anyway it will affect the magnetic field in one way or another. I don’t think we need to debate this. The question is how much that would affect the sound. For those of you that doubt the effect of steel under magnetic rods, pls have a look at the link to Steven Kersting’s FEMM simulations of magnetic fields in pups.

Now I will of cause have some distance between the rods and the inserts. The magnetic field decrease quite a lot with distance so a larger distance between the rods and the inserts will consequently lessen the impact.

As I said, I will run a couple of tests and get back with the results.

Oink, oink idch<_<

My screws are non magnetic stailess with torx heads. if you have tried 6mm stainless torx screws you know that they will put an enourmous force on the threads on the nut. Brass IS a solution but i would like to avoid it if possible for this reason.

I’m not shure if steel inserts will focus the magnetic field or if it will actually do the opposite. The customer has his mind set on some very ecpensive John Suhr pups, and I do not want to alter their sound.

I will make a jig to test what effect those steel inserts will have. I will also try to neutralise the possible effect by inserting steel plates to direct the magnetic field up around the strings, so that the inserts will have a minor impact on the sound.

And yeas, it is possible to shape the magnetic field. That is what the steel plate under the Tele bridge pup does. Compare the FEMM simulations on Steven Kerstings page regarding the A5 rods and the A5 rods with steel base plate. The only thing that differs is the steel plate and the magnetic field actually takes on a quite different shape. What are the effects on the sound? Well I will have to try it.

I'll get back when I have tested it

I'm having a hard time visualizing why you have a problem here.  The neck mounting inserts will be screwed into the neck.  Why would they interfere with the neck pickup? 

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Heres a pic:

See what I mean? The oval lines represent the magnetic field, and with the design we are planning we might end up with something similar with this picture. You can see the steel inserts interfering with the magnetic field. And remember that it isn't my design, it’s my customers…

Have you run any tests? Why not take one of your guitars with an equivalent pickup and drive in a couple of inserts directly below the pickup --I'd be willing to bet that the sound won't change at all. 

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Thanks for the link idch. Actually it got me MORE convinced that steel under the pup will change the sound. The small chunks of metal will actually be quite large and MAYBE have to be placed directly under the magnetic poles of the pup. I’m not very keen on inserting steel inserts in one of my guitar. I’m thinking of making a test rig with two pups mounted in some scrap wood, held upside down over the strings of any guitar, and one having steel inserts beneath and one not. Did anyone at all understand that?

For some interesting facts about pups and how the shape of the magnetic fields change the sound look here and here

At the end I might have to convince the customer to change the design, but it would be much more fun to be able to fulfil his wishes 100%.

I’m on a budget on this project. I would like to actually EARN some money for a change…

Anyway I will check the cost to get those made. Thanks for the tip.

But I still would like to know if someone has used magnetic steel in close proximity (not in contact with) of the rod in a strat pup.

That link shows the inserts ARE brass

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I use the same type, but steel.

I always use this type of STEEL neck inserts and machine type screws

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I'm using stailess steel bolts, so the bolts will not affect the magnetic field. I have thought about using something like the weld nuts, but I haven't been able to find Stainless steel weld nuts on this side of the atlantic. Does anyone have a good source for it?

I got a customer that wants an AANJ type neck joint on a Strat. He also wants it moved as far into the body as possible. Now the problem:

I always use this type of STEEL neck inserts and machine type screws. If I use this on the guitar for my customer it will mean that the inserts might end up beneath the neck pickup. The inserts is made of MAGNETIC (not magnetically charged) steel. My concern is that a piece of steel in close proximity of the pup magnets will change the shape of the magnetic field, and thereby change the sound of the pup.

Does anyone have any experience of this?

Will this change the sound of the neck pickup?

A few notes:

No, the customer will not accept a set neck or neck-through.

No, I don’t want to use brass inserts, because my neck screws is made out of stainless steel (torx type screw heads) and I’m afraid that someone might over tight the screws and destroy the bras threads

No I have not found stainless steel insets (not magnetically material)

I would appreciate some help from anyone with experience from this.

Looks good for a first one. A litle to low in power for bigger jobs, like Robosanders and so on.

I got an old artist from around the same time, the one with IBZ/Dimarzio pups, and carved top and back. Great guitar, but I have to many, so if you want to give me an offer...

Seriously, if nothing else works out, I could draw you the dimensions and send to you. It will take some time to reach you across the Atlantic, but If you have the time to wait…

PM me if you want me to do it.

The main dimensions are:

Waist with: 19.0 cm

Lower bout with: 32.7 cm

Neck joint to end of body: 35.3 cm

Body thickness at edge: 3.0 cm

Body thickness at middle of body: 5.5 cm

Amasing! And I've never heard of those guys!

For those of you that doesn't read swedish:

The floyd Rose costed almost 1400$. I don know the source for the Floud, but I got the impression that it is a custom made one-off from a mashine shop, rather than one of the ordinary makers

I rout all the way, but I'm plain lazy...

Have seen it done my way, but covered up with a head weneer, but I think the drill-version is neater. Might try that the next time

No problems with Vol/tone. You will however experience a little offset in the dial for the tone, meaning you have to turn the knob a little before the tone cap kick in

I have made pickups with Quick connectors:

pretty much like the EMGs. It wasn’t much more work to wound, but it were for a Tele, and you don’t swap a Teles bridge pup just like that. Not completely well thought out…

But for a Strat style guitar I think that it could be possible to make a complete pick guard with switching and all, and a quick connector to the output jack. If you also find a way to snap the pick guard in and out I think it would be an interesting instrument.

A note on those particular pots (just finished a guitar with two of those wired for volume/tone):

If you would like to use the chassis for earth, you must sand away the yellow surface on the pots back. Impossible to solder if you don’t, and all you will end up with is melted plastics

Yeah,you can call me cheap. Thats my middle name.

The thing is that there are no maximum storin time for opened cans in the product description. Nevermind, I guess that this can's out the window after this project.

you dont need an ultra powerful drill press... 4hp should be more than enough

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4hp! Thats about twise the power of mine, so that why that method is out of question for me

And, Yeah. I should upgrade the drill press, but that goes for a lot of stuff in my shop so the list is long

GTR1 had mahogany body, maple top and maple neck. I used Stew Mac water based grain filler on that

GTR2 (or bas) had a beech body, colour coats on theh body and head, oil finish maple neck and no grain filler.

No sealer on any. Spraying conditions were the same. Gtr2 were done three months ago, and perfectly fine, hard finish.

I have let the finish set for almost two weeks before buffing. Curing time for the finish is 150 hours according to the instructions, so that should be OK.

The can is quite old. I've had it or almost two years (a lot of other things (lice life itself) that have been distracting me from the important thing (like building guitars)). GTR1 was finished like 1.5 years ago. The age of the lacquer is my main concern. I guess I’ll have to wait to see what Stew Mac says about that.

I just finished a guitar with StewMacs Colour Tone water based finish. It’s the third guitar I finish from the same can.

Now my question. The finish on this third guitar doesn’t get near as hard as the other two! Could it be that the colour tone has gone old? I cannot find any info on shelf storage time on the original label, that I actually still got. Anyone had similar problems?

I have asked the same thing to StewMac, but I will most likely not get an answer until next week…

BTW its a mahogany body with maple top and mahogany neck.

A variaton on the router bit in dripp press theme: use the rounded bit with bearings in your ordinary router before you contour the body. Works perfekt and without the need for a realy powerful drill press. The guys seemed to forget to mention THAT part

Short for Cyano Acrylate

If I remember correctly the Moore guitars isn’t carved, but just have a “two dimensional” curve across the body. If so, you can try this.

Carefully heat one side of the veneer with a hairdryer along the “bending line”. The veneer will bend towards the warmer side. Then there will be much less risk for cracks when clamping it down to the body. I would also use thin strips of MDF (3-5mm, or masonite, or anything else that you find suitable) across the bend to even out/spread the clamping pressure.