Stolysmaster

Yes, thanks @ScottRand @Bizman62for this info and the link. Because I would be doing White, I am wondering if a Catalized Varnish clear at the end would less susceptible to yellowing over time compared to Nitro lacquer...? 

I haven't posted on this forum in quite a few years, and doing a search for this topic in previous posts has not yielded any results with much time spent already. So...I thought I would simply ask if anyone can give me advice on doing an opaque white pearl finish on a guitar. I will lacquer it with clear nitro on top of the white.  I might even try a clear catalyzed acrylic finish (?) that I have read about here instead of nitro. I have a lot of experience with transparent nitro finishes, but have never done one opaque and don't know how to start! Thanks in advance for any input.

I have used it before. It will polish out to a very high sheen, almost mirror finish when looked at from a side glancing view. It will not be clear though as the polymers add a cloudy look. So it will have a shiny slight satin look to it when viewed straight on, almost plastic looking. It is a very durable finish though.

Hope that makes since?

MK

I had sprayed some of the extra from the can (diluted to 85%/15% Polyacrylic/water) on some hard maple; part of it stained, part un-stained. Last night I sanded with some 600, then 1000, then 1500, then buffed with a polish...didn't want to go through the usual routine with all the graduating grits 'cause I was in a hurry. When done, I was pleasantly surprised that I did not see any cloudiness, even looking straight on. I checked again in the sunlight this morning and it still looked very nice. Maybe my eyes are not quite as discerning as MiKro's! Good chance I will use this on the next guitar...the custom Ibanez Artist with mahogany back from old Kalamazoo billets and white limba neck and top.

Yes, lacquer definitely "shrinks forever", and the fumes are horrendous! But it looks and sounds great when applied fairly thin. The reason I commented about the sound of thick finishes is that I have stripped and refinished four 1982 Ibanez Artist guitars that were opaque finishes from the factory. They were all coated with the most incredibly thick and extremely hard to remove gunk finishes. But after being refinished with relatively thin amounts of Nitro-lacquer over stain; the tonal difference was nothing short of astounding. All kinds of high end sparkle and openness / airiness emerged from each guitar in every case! Harmonics bloomed easier and faster, and all guitars had a bit more sustain as well. I never would have thought that something so seemingly minute would make such a change...but it did.

Lacquer is also easy to touch up and repair if necessary, since it "melts" into itself with additional coats. But it is not without problems...shrinking being one of the worst. And it is not very durable; chips easily, and many substances will disolve it or mess it up.

Once, I had refinished a stock black Gibson Flying V (it had considerable orange peel from the factory) with a beautiful Gibson style Cherry Nitro finish. I had just put deet bug spray on my hands and applied it to my neck and around my ankles so mesquitoes would not eat me alive while having some pics taken with the guitar outdoors down in Texas. Well, when I touched the back of the neck with my hands, having residual bug spray on them, the nitro finish began to literally melt in my hand!!!

And once, after a gig here in Colorado about twelve years ago, I left one of those refifnished Ibanez Artists in my vehicle overnight, and the temperature dropped to the low twenties during the night. The next day, in the right light, I noticed cracks all over the top of the guitar!!

Killemall8; Wow! We have VERY different experiences with straight polyurethane. I have found it to be a pretty SOFT finish, very often being able to put a mark in it with my fingernail. I have always thought that the reason I have NEVER seen polyurethane crack is because it is so soft and pliable. But maybe I'm wrong about that.

MiKro; glad to hear about your experience with polyacrylic. I'm doing some experimenting with what I have left over from the rocking chair, and will see if I get the same results you have had; that is, being not as glossy when viewed straight on...very interesting. Thus far I have still not noticed any "blue" color effect on the unstained maple I sprayed as an experiment.

Thanks to both of you for your input.

As far as sound goes, I suppose the usual applies...as long as it is a hard finish and I keep it fairly thin, I don't think it should deaden the sound of a guitar or diminish the high end "sparkle" like so many thick finishes do.

Well, this is poly/acrylic blend, not a pure polyurethane, so I wonder what the differences are (?). I have not noticed any blue tint, but it is going on top of a brown stain. I will try spraying some on a piece of maple to see if it dries with a blue tint. So far it seems to be noticeably harder than polyurethane, but I'll have to wait until I've built up the finish a bit more to get a better take on the hardness. One thing is sure; it sprays very nicely, and is more forgiving and more self leveling (especially on vertical surfaces) than nitro-lacquer.

I would really like to see some other opinions on "poly-acrylic", or polyurethane/acrylic blends. Thanks.

What's the latest word on polyacrylic finishes? The reason I ask is that I was just doing some touch up/restoration work on an old rocking chair the wife inherited, and so far I'm having tremendous results spraying General Finishes Polyacrylic Water Based Top Coat. I'm wondering what people think of this finish for a guitar because it is so easy. I don't know how it will buff out when dried enough, and I'm not going to gloss up the finish on this piece of furniture anyway.

For a guitar:

How much does this stuff shrink?

How hard does polyacrylic get?

Does polyacrylic yellow much over time?

How durable is it?

Just looking for some feedback on this finish for a guitar; please!

Great info and advice Westhemann,thanks. The guitar won't even be started until after the new year, so it will be awhile before it gets to that point. But I'm excited about using the SW WW CV as a finish.

I checked, and it looks like I'll have to buy a whole gallon of the Sherwood Water White Conversion Varnish because a Sherwin-Williams store guy told me it does not come in quarts. $65/Gallon; not a bad price, but WAY more than I would need. I'd surely have to experiment to see how thin of a finish I could get away with and still have enough on to sand and polish without any sand-throughs. Fully cured in 24 hours?! WOW!! I'm gonna see if I can find the spraying instructions to find out what size spraying tip they recommend.

I can't say enough about how great that finish looks in the pics Westhemann.

Are you using xylene as a reducer/thinner? Spraying two or three coats?

Man, that Catalytic Varnish looks AMAZING. Really nice work Westhemann! I will check into it. Did you spray that on? If so, what size tip did you use on your gun?

Rustins Plasticoat.

Sprays on, Brushes on, wipes on, sponges on, Iv even dipped bodies and necks in it.

Dries good enough to polish in 24 hours. Not that it always needs a polish. Hard wearing, solvent & alcohol resistant.

Cant realy go wrong if your stuck for cash & lack funky finishing equipment,

Or, A little more pricey, But Behlen wipe on urethane is excellent.

Is Rustins Plastic Coating available in the US? I have searched the web and cannot find it here.

From internet searching

Five days ago I submersed a low C key from a horn I personally lacquered with nitrocelulose lacquer about six months ago in denatured alcohol. I removed it this morning and there's no appreciable loss of finish. To further satisfy my curiosity I had a conversation with a neighbor, a retired chemist from DuPont Chemical's paint division. He told me that mineral spirits, denatured alchohol, turpentine or zylol are not strong enough solvents to break down lacquer. He did state that urethane based finishes would curdle and ball up from exposure to those types of solvents. I tend to believe his expertise. Someone please try stripping the lacquer from an old horn with denatured alcohol! It's hard enough to remove old lacquer with acetone and methylethylketone (MEK) and these are much more aggressive solvents!

Very interesting reading and info Westhemann. I have just assumed that alcohol that is drinkable would damage my Nitro finished guitars. Good to know that it won't! However, I HAVE severely damaged the Nitro finish on furniture with acetone - happens in a heartbeat!

Maybe I'll just stick with Nitro again when this one is finished. I was just looking for something a little easier than spraying lacquer fot the next one, with all the usual problems that can arise; orange peel to sand out, the occasional drip or two to fix, waiting for it to harden enough to polish, watching it crack when a tuner nut or pot nut is tightened too much, or when a pickup mounting ring screw is tightened to much, the fumes, etc. I'm just kind of tired of all that with Nitro.

But I must admit that I am NOT a patient man. I believe this is where many of my problems come into play! When I finish a guitar, I want to play it, Actually, I want to play it long before it's finished!

But Nitro might as well not be hard either, because it cracks and dents so easily when banged. Nitro is a beautiful finish, which is why I've sprayed it on all my other guitars. However, I do not consider Nitro to be durable AT ALL! And God help you if you spill any kind of alcoholic drink on it!

One does not typically use a sealer before applying Tru-Oil as it will stop the oil from penetrating......and that is one of the main reasons for using an oil finish.

SR

I was actually wondering about that, but Birchwood-Casey makes a "Tru-Oil Sealer" for their Tru-Oil, to be used before the Oil. One website about finishing guitars with Tru-Oil - http://www.lmii.com/carttwo/truoil.htm - recommends using the Sealer, then filling the grain, then using the Sealer again, all before using the actual Tru-Oil. So that has me confused.

I think that by bleaching the entire top you are then able to mask off the top, spray lacquer to seal the binding edge (or shellac it) to give yourself a greater safety margin before grain filling and staining the top. This stage should also serve as a fill for that part of the body.

Tru-Oil does penetrate wood a fair degree, especially on end-grain where it is drunk like a Heineken rider after an 80s Metallica gig. That oil will happily migrate under whatever sealing you have done on the faux binding and potentially discolour it from underneath.

So, based on what you have said I think it would be best to bleach the entire body, mask off the top and back, seal the faux binding edge with a single coat of shellac or lacquer, grain fill and sand the rest of the body -top and back, mask the faux binding area and stain the rest of the body, THEN SHELLAC OR LACQUER THE ENTIRE BODY TO PREVENT THE TRU-OIL FROM PENETRATING UNDER THE PREVIOUSLY SHALLECED FAUX BINDING AREA, THEN apply Tru-Oil to the entire thing. Does that sound right?

And, what is better to put under the Tru-Oil as a sealer; Shellac or Nitro? I'm thinking shellac.

I've read here about how oil finishes are not very protective, but I've use Tung oil on furniture before and it seems to be fairly hard and somewhat protective. And I've also read here that Tru-Oil is even harder than Tung oil. I'm very used to Nitro, but I hate that it cracks when dinged.

Thanks for that advice Prostheta, should have thought that myself.

I did some research on older posts and apparently there is such a thing as "wood bleach", a two part compound I guess. I would prefer to use this over trying to dye part of the edge white. I'm after a more natural look, and since I plan on staining the rest of the mahogany a purple-ish red, a bleached mahogany for the masked binding would be just fine, and enough contrast.

I plan on finishing this one with Tru-Oil. That will be a first for me as I usually do a sprayed Nitro finish. Since this will be all mahogany, I guess I should mask off and bleach the faux binding area first, then mask it off and use a dark stained grain filler on the rest of the body, then sand the escess filler off and repeat that process again. After a few coats of Tru-Oil I will wet sand with 1200 grit and wipe the slurry accross the grain to fill in more, wipe it off, and then keep applying Tru-Oil until the finish is flat. Then after it gets pretty hard wet sand with 2000-3000 to get as much gloss out of it as possible.

How does that sound?

If I wanted to lighten up the edge of an all mahogany guitar, body back & top, to create a masked binding look, how would I do it; bleach perhaps?

First, does bleach work for that purpose on mahogany?

Second, will bleach travel under the masking tape into the grain of the top and the sides that will be stained/dyed?

Third, is bleach the best way to lighten the mahogany? What about trying to dye it with some sort of white dye?

Why not get the person who's making the neck to also make the body. This would make sense

Good question. I asked Doug at Soulmate last year about that and he told me he was too busy making necks to make me a body!(?)

I guess it's back to the drawing board. BUT, I did recount the pieces on the Artist body, and although the back is still 13 pieces of Birch, the top is not 5 pieces of maple; I think it is really just 3. It was hard to tell, but I think I was just looking at some grain changes within the same piece. So, the total number of pieces for the body are now 16, not 18!

I forgot to add that it has a "body contour" on the back. These can be seen regularly on ebay by doing a search for "Ibanez Artist" and looking for the vintage early 80's models, not the newer ones. The newer ones made in China do not have as thick of a body.

I am looking for some one to build me a guitar body with a mahogany back and a mahogany carved top, preferably a figured bookmatched top. The body is that of an early 80's Ibanez Artist, and I have one that I can trace and send to someone with thickness specs, etc. It is similar to a symetrical double cutaway Les Paul. I am having a neck made for it that I will have set in (mortice/tenon glue joint) by a local guy who has done this before for me. He will also do all the routing, and locating bridge - tailpiece. All I am looking for is the body to be built. Thanks for all responses in advance.

Bob, it's called a learning process...... I bet the next one will be from scratch.

i TOTALLY appreciate this, however. to cut the top off (accurately), get new blanks, glue em up. glue the top to the body, reroute everything.... hes really better off just using the existing body as a template to build a new one lol

Carving the top is the EASY part. You can do it with a power sander, grinder, chisel, whatever tools you have really.

I have come to the conclusion that you are right...I should start from scratch "using the existing body as a template to build a new one"! That is why I started a new thread to solicit someone to build a body with a carved top for me. Thanks for this input.

Where on the forum might it be appropriate for me to solicit someone to build a mahogany body with a carved top? I'm thinking maybe the "Buy, Sell, Trade" classified area.(?)

I am a "player", not a woodworker, and I do not have the tools, time, or experience for such an undertaking myself. Although I am experienced at finishing/refinishing my own guitars, that is about my limit, The two custom built instruments I own have been made by local woodworkers and are both flat tops. Neither of these individuals is able to carve a top for me.

Hard to imagine = doubtful, at least in my book. You claimed it was hard to imagine, meaning you questioned my claim. I gave you some second hand info from a very experienced builder that "have used it" as in "have built several necks of birch". To me that is a quite weighty argument. I did listen to the guys experience. If you want to do that is entirely up to you. I'm not going to insist. Peace

Well, at least you "won't insist"...now I can rest comfortably.