axegarden

15 hours ago, Drak said:

Hmmm, I've been doing it for over 25 years and I'm online...I would never do a blue finish over Mahogany w/o bleaching it first.

But I'm not going to push the issue, you do you, Boo!

haha well now you got me thinking I can try to bleach one of my pieces of scrap khaya. what product would you recommend?

1 hour ago, Drak said:

The black/sandback won't work here because there is no figure in the wood for the black to highlight.

The only 'enhancement' available would be to use a black pore-filler (Timbermate) to fill the pores black.

If you're using any colors associated with Brown (like yellow, orange, red, brown) then you just go ahead.

But with anything 'other', like Blue or Green or anything that isn't in brown's boathouse...

Have you looked up 'Mahogany Guitar' in a search engine to see what's out there?

Well the black/sandback seems to work for my purposes so long as the color on top "agrees" with the wood tone. It sinks into the pores and brings contrast just as I would expect - As you can see in one of my pics, the sanded-back black looks a lot like woodfiller (I haven't applied any woodfiller to these stain samples - I guess I should get some in order to best replicate my end result). I do need to do a better job sanding (with grain raising), maybe then I'll get a clean look with it.  I've heard of the bleach trick but I haven't seen it used anywhere online, and once sanded the khaya isn't all that brown ( i mean it is brown but not so much that I can't work with it). And I'm all in on doing a blue-ish stain. I've seen several online, blue seems to be a favorite. Red/brown/yellow is .... too natural looking, kindof old school IMO (these colors bring classic les pauls to mind), and I'm not interested in it right now. I want to pay homage to the original finish with a nice blue. 

5 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

One word: Wedges! For addressing hard to reach areas like that one option is to pinch the piece between two boards held in place with clamps and then add wedges between the board and body to apply diagonal pressure. Let me draw it!

Dude thank you muchly for taking the time to make these graphics. I didn't think of that at all. Do you think wedges like this will be "safe" for a soft wood like Mahogany? Should I just make these wedges with scrap pine around my garage? I need more clamps...

I finally have some update with the ol axe (I'm a horticulturist for a living and I'm hella busy at this time of year, leaving me tired and exhausted at the end of the day - no energy for the rebuild). I tried clamping the body closed to see if the cracks could be shut, but the angles of the body, and my novice with clamps, made it difficult to determine where and how I should clamp. Also, the neck pocket crack (part of it) is in a diagonal direction to the planes I can clamp.

the meantime, I sanded my sample Khaya/African Mahogany to 220, and have tried staining some Angelus leather dyes. I tried the - black first, sand back , and add color - trick, but i reckon the wood is a little too dark to pull this off without a pretty dark result, depending on the colors applied after black. I tried a black to blue to turquoise that turned out pretty sharp. The angelus purple seems a bit dark for my purposes. I did a purp + light blue (where + = sanding in between such that the first color is mostly relegated to the deepest grain), and a navy blue + turquoise that turned out veery similar. A rose + turquoise turned out really nice, may be a keeper. Light blue + jean blue turned out to be a nice indigo. My last photo is a collection of the 6 i've tried so far: 1. black + blue + turq, 2. = black + navy blue + purp. 3. purp + light blue 4. navy blue + turq 5. rose + turq 6. light blue + jean blue

On 4/2/2021 at 4:03 AM, Gogzs said:

Hope I'm not too late to throw in my two cents. I'd drill out the whole plastic sleeve and plug it with a piece of mahogany and redo the whole thing. If you want to keep it clean and clear, the sleeve has to go. Shame this is such an issue to you, the newer models don't have that sleeve and are actually fairly nicely finished and polished even on the low end models (take a look at the Ibanez S520/S521).

This was my take on that socket position, and after a year of plugging it in/unplugging, no noticeable scratches/dents etc... pain in the ass to get it done, but worth it  

 

Yes my dude that's exactly what I'm aiming for! Nice axe you've got there I like that shape. From what I can tell the plastic socket doesn't actually alter the size of the jack opening, it just changes the length of the channel, so I think something as simple as some o-rings might get the job done. Getting it out is going to be a pain though. 

14 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

For making it look nicer and getting rid of the chips a small sanding roll for a Dremel type tool might work. Like these https://www.amazon.co.uk/AUSTOR-Including-Sanding-Sleeves-Mandrels/dp/B074ZHP6L6/ref=psdc_1939279031_t1_B07GYRH8ZK

this is a great idea if I can't get it out

18 hours ago, curtisa said:

Not sure I follow. 

The input jack is on the top of the guitar. You can see it (the plastic "jack socket") in the first and fifth photos of my last post. The original finish was opaque and covered up the existence of this jack "socket", as it was also finished so you didn't see the socket at all. I assume the socket is to refine the diameter of the channel/opening for the metal hardware of the input jack, maybe just to stabilize the cable as it sits in the jack. At this point it is getting sanded down every time I sand the top., and I'd rather not have the obvious black plastic in the middle of the nice stained top I want. I asked Rich from IbanezRules, and he doesn't know of any replacement for this part. I'm really tempted to force it out (through the back cavity by pushing on a small lip I can feel), stain the body and the socket as normal, and then finding some replacement hardware, (which would be invisible thanks to the shape of the top) to accomplish the same function it had/has. 

Was able to finish 95% of the sanding today (Random Orbital Sander). Only the inside of the horns remain for hand sanding. Ill tell ya whut this thing is not fun to sand, it's entirely curved. I def have some rough areas around the hard edges, and I hope I can make them look better with finer hand sanding (I used up to 120 so far). The crack in the bottom of the horn seems only to be in the horn, it IS in the joint between the body pieces, but only seems a hair deep. The neck pocket crack looks scary. I can tell it's visible on the inside of the pocket for an inch or so. I bought some clamps and Titebond 2 - I welcome any tips. 

There is a problem with the input jack. It's plastic. I hate it and can't get it out. I can sortof manage a flathead to push on it from the back cavity, but it doesn't seem to budge. Suggestions? I may need to replace it too. 

I also got my test piece of African Mahogany. I called around and couldn't find anyone local that had some, so I ordered a piece of "microlumber" from Cook Woods in Oregon. It seems to match pretty well. I have a dozen Angelus dyes and a dozen more Crimson Shots on the way. 

12 hours ago, Drak said:

It depends on how you intend to deal with the cracks.

So it depends on whether you're gap-filling cracks or re-joining wood pieces together again.

PS, wear a mask if you're going to sand that silver off, I don't know what's in that stuff, might be harmful.

Ah thanks for this. I'll post more pictures when I sand the metallic layer off and get some more feedback. I'm a little worried that the crack that seems to be coincident with the seam between body joints IS the joint, and that the crack at the top of the neck pocket is .... a structural problem. The guitar never gave me any guff before so I hope I can repair these and it will continue to behave as normal. 

So I was able to scrape the rest of the finish off today. The metallic layer persists. I uncovered a few cracks, two around the neck pocket/heel and the other in the bottom of the top horn which seems like it might coincide with the joint between two pieces of the mahogany body. What am I to do about these cracks? Glue and clamps?

11 hours ago, Drak said:

Yup, just from your first shots I thought it was a very nice piece of Mahogany.

Just don't dig into it with your putty knife, have some patience, and you're on your way to the next step w/ no setbacks.

Depending on what your final finish plans are, you may not need to touch the cavities.

I'm not sure about the final finish yet, that's why I'm here to gather the knowledge goodies. I don't have a spray rig, so that rules out spray lacquer. It seems the easiest option for me is a pre-catalytic lacquer from a can. 

4 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

If you're talking about the area on the control cavity side one reason might be a bump/shock! You may have hit the edge so that the entire finish has just popped off but as the paint is basically some sort of plastic there may not have been any major visible damage. This reminds me of a Crimson video where Ben Crowe accidentally dropped an old neck so that the fretboard popped right off! It had been glued with epoxy in his early days as a luthier. And he could reproduce the effect to ensure it was not just because of a poor joint. 

Amen to that! No matter if the cavities are covered with conductive paint or just the finish, they'd be covered by the pickup rings. And even if you're planning on direct mounting the pickups and plug the screw holes of the original rings it's common practice to paint the cavities dark to enhance the shadows around the pickups and other hardware. Didn't @Drak just paint the trem cavity black in his current build thread?

I guess I was referring to the top cavities for the trem & pickups, but the back too. God I would love it if the cavities popped out whole. I'll try it but not force it. The perfectionist part of me wants to get the finish out, but I know that's some hella sanding that I don't want to do, and you're right they'll never be visible unless a pickup is out. 

Here's today's small progress. The metallic layer is definitely a pain. It bubbles a little but still won't readily come off. I don't know how I got it off so easily with my fingers when the hole first opened a fear years ago. It seems like it'll sand off easily enough. It's a little hard to make out but the grain looks glorious so far (for mahogany, yaknow). 

The bubbling tip helped. I had to point the heat gun closer to the body, essentially. I move it around to keep one area from burning, but (funnily enough) I glanced away, as one does, to see a bird or something but I looked back to find a bubble and crack in the finish opening up - I scraped. It came off easy. It was nice. I can definitely see "the range" of temperature idea. In my experience you can see the finish become glossier as it softens, like melting butter. For some reason this finish is quick to discolor, and give off chemical fumes, well before it begins to bubble. But all is well, next I'll tackle the back and sides, and maybe try to get some scrapes inside the cavities.

12 hours ago, Drak said:

They may have used a bonding agent or some kind of primer, but whatever, nothing is going to stop a heat gun. That's what I got for now, just keep going, get your area hotter, and work smaller areas at a time. Also, if you're using a metal putty knife, try to 'pry' with the grain, in the direction of the grain, don't go in sideways against it. I only say that in case you're not getting it hot enough and a piece of wood actually will want to come up with the finish. Getting it hotter will reduce that possibility.

Yeah I figured I might have to get it hotter to get that metallic layer off. Whatever the metallic material is, it is acting much different than the rest.

6 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

My experience with heat-gunning tells that when the heated finish starts to bubble it's time to scrape. When it starts to change colour it's time to stop heating that area and scrape the finish off quickly until it cools down. When the finish has changed to dark brown/black and the bubbles start to sink, you're in trouble. Not only is the wood most likely a bit charred, the burned finish will also stick harder and reheating will then only make things worse.

So, fast local heating and peeling when hot. Much like waxing a car: Wax on, wax off.

So, as I was heat-gunning I started to notice the blue beginning to discolor, and I scraped when I saw this. Not brown/black, just starting to get more grey-ish - i figured this was a sign to scrape. But I'll get it a little hotter, and look for bubbling. 

On another note, I talked to a carpenter coworker this morning, he suggested I might need something like Minwax Pre-stain Conditioner. It seems like that stuff is used for porous wood, but it also seems it's used for oil-based dyes. Anyone have experience with it? Is it necessary for my project?

Here's the result of the 30 min of heat-gunning I had time to do today. It looks like the "Jet Blue" finish is essentially a layer of metallic silver with trans blue over it. Strangely, the metallic layer was less willing to come off in scrapes. I hope it comes off with stripper?

This is a small portion of a part where the metallic layer came off in a chunk. You can see how porous the mahogany wood is underneath. Any recommendations for a good wood-filler compatible with staining/dyeing?  Or a stripper?

1 hour ago, curtisa said:

Aesthetically I'd perpetually be kicking myself if I could see the copper foil showing around the pickups too. It's fine if you can hide it behind a scratchplate, but in the S540 body shape they'll always be on show.

You're very right, that is a frightening image. I guess I'll leave shielding out of it. 

40 minutes ago, Drak said:

PS, I live in MD so your shoot conditions should be similar to mine, maybe a little worse since you're a little farther South.

But, shooting season (weather) is here, it literally just started today, and should be OK until ...maybe...sometime in May.

I check my local weather station online all the time before I pick up a gun, looking for humidity of 55% or less.

50%, really, is the limit, but I can push it a little by using a bit of retarder.

Anything past 55% generally spells troubles, problems, and fixing things I'd rather not have to fix in the first place.

Thanks for the advice, I have a feeling this won't be my only refinish. I've been totally enthralled with the subject for like 72 hours and I'm already planning to get some maple top Tele Kit, lol.  I've always wanted a Tele and what's better than one I assembled, right? haha. Any suggestions? It seems like Warmoth is a quality kit provider. I really want that small Tele-type neck too, I forget what it's called/the shape. 

Today's the equinox, so that makes some sense. I just got my soldering kit so I'll disassemble tonight and scrape tomorrow, probably. I should be able to get this done by May.

I'll find an orbital sander somewhere, and I guess I should go ahead and order some Crimson water dyes and Angelus alcohols. I'll get black, (royal) blue, and purple, from each company, and see what results I can get on some scrap mahogany that I'll pick up this coming week.

I get a little obsessed with new projects and this one has me literally dreaming about finishing guitars  thanks all

36 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

I would mix them for the reasons shown in the Crimson videos: If you apply alcohol based dye first, let's say like bright yellow, it won't blend to green if you apply water based blue stain over it. That's one way to get the Caribbean Sea effect on a flamed maple top.  If you use water based dye for both you'll get a blotchy green. If you want to make a sunburst turning from black through red to yellow/amber, apply the yellow as alcohol based first all over, then the water based red where it needs to be, then water based yellow to the center smudging the edge of the red ring, then water based black to the outer ring, again smudging with the red. You can even do the blending from one colour to the other with a wet rag, using circular movements or swipes from one colour to the other. As you'll see in my thread, I very much redid the top today to get the burst smoother and the center lighter.

Ok that all makes sense, thank you for this. But another user in this thread, Drak, had said that they mix water into alcohol dies "if the situation calls for it". In those cases, because some water is in the alcohol stain, subsequent water based stains would blotch together, right? They will only stay apart from each other if one color stain is 100% alcohol and the other color stain is 100% water, I assume. 

I'm gonna check out your thread today (as long as my gf stops making fun of all the time i'm spending reading about guitar building, lol you know how it is). 

11 hours ago, Drak said:

Do you want to do a wipe-on finish? Do you want to use aerosol cans? Lacquer? Poly? Pre-Cat? (becoming popular these days among the DIY crowd) Do you have spray equipment? (guessing not)

Are you going to be spraying outside? If so, weather conditions are of paramount importance. I do shoot everything outside, and I generally am limited to two 'windows' of opportunity, seasonally speaking. Dead of summer months are WAY too humid here, shooting finishes is completely out of the question for me where I live in the summer months, so I'm always planning builds according to potential shooting opportunities (weather-wise). There are months upon months where I cannot touch a spray gun at all, but I'm used to it. I know my weather limitations like the back of my hand, and I stick to them like glue. Trying to overrule the weather is just asking to make mistakes and send yourself flying backwards. All this needs to be evaluated and answered...but not today.

From what I have thus gathered, wipe-on finishes are generally softer, like vinyl, and doesn't provide as much "glossiness" as spray-on finishes. And since I do not have a spray rig, it seems a spray-on pre-catalyzed lacquer is the way to go (considering my novice experience, equipment and $$$). The ones I've seen done online seem just fine for me. 

As for weather, I might be effed. I live in a humid area of Virginia, like with a creek and swamp on my 7 acres. The warm weather is typically humid. I have a garage with two doors on opposite walls, such that fresh air can blow through. That's where I was planning to spray. What is the ideal humidity? Apparently pre-cats should also be applied when it is slightly warm, rather than chilly. Does this mean I can (likely) only spray on like, today (the vernal equinox) and the autumn equinox? lol like not summer, not winter, but those sweet spots in between?

4 hours ago, curtisa said:

Save yourself the trouble. With two humbuckers you won't need shielding in the pickup cavities. The amount of noise reduction possible from a thin layer of paint is far outweighed by the noise cancelling abilities of the pickups themselves.

Well I don't plan on using the paint-form, that seems ... less than ideal. I would use foil-like metal shielding. There is a single coil in this guitar but I almost never use it (I know they tend to be noisier. What is the logic behind your comment? I only have novice-level knowledge of electronics. In my experience, I thought humbuckers were typically "hot", and would likely pick up "noise". I appreciate your input, thanks!

5 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

 And just as a reminder, there's a layer of alcohol based dye wiped all over the top, the back being all alcohol.

Aha! Tell me the secrets of why or why not you would mix water stains with alcohol stains. I imagine they "sit" at different layers in the wood, since they have different dry times? Besides that I know the colors have a different vibrancy...Sounds like you "washed" it? Like applying a tint all over?

What do you think of using a pre-catalyzed lacquer for the finishing coats? I'm pretty sure the existing top is a poly-x, and I like that glassy surface. Can I achieve something like that without a spray rig? Thx bizman

42 minutes ago, Drak said:

I'd use metal (I do)...maybe round the corners off to prevent dig ins if you want a little added protection.

Yellow tint ?  Uhh, mine don't, can't speak for others...shooting lacquer for nearly 30 years now, no problems to report.

I'll get a metal one then hah. I can definitely round the corners, I'm afraid the mahogany is soft and I'll scratch it.

I'm still not sure what product to use for the final finish. It seems like after stains are dried I apply a few coats of sanding sealer like Mohawk, but then the final finish is yet a mystery to me. Ideally I'd have pretty glassy surface. 

23 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

Exactly. And it's only grounded, not charged. I'm not an electrician but it's meant to eliminate hum.

The Stunning Stain Shots are concentrate versions which you can mix with water or alcohol. Also note that alcohol can be mixed with water so basically you should be able to mix alcohol and water based dyes for a certain hue - there's no such thing as 100% alcohol, there's always some water included. If you apply alcohol based dye on wood and let it dry it won't blend with water based dye applied at a later stage. But if you apply water based dye, you can either wash it with plain water or blend it with another colour. In my latest build thread I just made a burst with water based dye. The fading was made simply by rubbing a clean wet cloth at the edge of a colour stripe. I did that a week ago and I've now wiped it twice to get rid of the excess dye and fade the burst better.

I'm definitely going to be shielding the cavities, then. Can you link to your water dye build?

16 minutes ago, Drak said:

The smallest 'dig' into that body wood will cause you time, effort, and frustration fixing what didn't have to happen.

So its like this: the heat needs to be 'in the window' of opportunity to lift the finish.

Your finish is probably poly, so it probably won't 'peel off' as nicely as these pics show, this is lacquer.

I'm going to take the heat-gunning slow to avoid these pitfalls. I also have a plastic scraper to use in order to avoid damaging the wood. Hopefully it won't be too hot for a plastic scraper. On the subject of lacquer - don't lacquers give a yellow tint? I want a nice glassy clear coat on top. 

19 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

Yes, anything that conducts electricity will work. Many glues act as insulation so some creativity in folding the tape edges may be required.

AFA doghair, would this qualify as a wire haired dachshund?

If you apply alcohol based dye first, it won't blend with a water based dye you'll apply after that. Thus you won't get some dirty brown if you have alcohol based red as a base layer and water based blue on top of it, unless you really flood the top. I've used the Crimson Shots both with water and alcohol. Getting a solid layer mixed with alcohol was no big issue for a first timer...

lol You got me on that dachshund joke. It really does look like that. That pic got me thinking though - if that tobacco-like color were blue, it would be pretty sick. Although it looks like 2 different colors, like they don't blend it's just tobacco and black, yaknow? Maybe I'll try it on some scrap wood. 

Is the purpose of the aluminum sheeting inside the cavities to create a faraday cage effect? Is the aluminum charged when playing? I know all the electronics are grounded to it, and the bridge, but I don't understand the purpose of that, care to elaborate?

Don't mix alcohol and water-based dyes - Got it. Are the shots just concentrate versions of the "stunning stain", so that they can be mixed with water or alcohol? Thanks bizman.

14 minutes ago, Drak said:

Don't sweat alcohol vs. water yet, thanks for bringing up what is in your head, so I can give feedback.

That battle is not on the horizon yet, its really not, and even when it is, its no big deal, it really isn't.

I use both all the time and I could care less which one is in my hands most days.

And I add water to alcohol dyes when the situation calls for it, which is sometimes...not often, but sometimes.

Thanks a lot for your help, drak. Are there any vendors you'd recommend for dyes? or matte black hardware?

I need to delve into what to do after staining. The types of coats applied after that seem varied from luthier to luthier. Wouldn't I "seal" the wood after staining? Does that have the same effect as "wood filling" (the grain)?

9 minutes ago, Drak said:

This is what a burst looks like on Mahogany.

Insert whatever color you want, blue, green, red, it will look much like this. Nothing more.

This is what Mahogany looks like, that's about it.

From what I can see, your Mahogany body looks quite nice, but no one really knows until its stripped.

Then maybe you want to re-calculate the whole thing and not move forward with this refinish.

If your money is better spent actually buying a Figured Maple topped guitar, then that is the call.

 

 

 

As soon as my soldering iron arrives I'll disassemble my electronics and begin to strip the finish off with the heat gun. This is one of my favorite guitars so I'm dedicated to refinishing it for sure. I will try a purple to blue blend on my scrap mahogany to decide whether a fade is what I want. I think it depends on the colors. I dig that turquoise one you found but I'm aiming for more royal blue, actually similar to the original Jet Blue. I like the Angelus Blue, but it's alcohol based and it seems alcohol is quick-drying, harder to work with as a beginner. I may move for the Crimson water-based stains for a more user-friendly experience. Then again, these aren't expensive dyes and I may try both on scrap wood to see what I can produce.