asm Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 i thinking about using a different port instead of a 1/4" instrument cable to connect to the guitar. my question is, how much information is passing thru from the guitar, and why couldnt you just use like a midi cable or a cat 5 or an xlr and just tie all of them together except for a ground and have the same thing as an instrument cable? would this work? thx for any help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Any shielded, low-capacitance cable will work fine - anything else will cause problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted August 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 great! to save me some time, what are some cables i should stay away from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Any cable that's not shielded, and any cable that's designed for high-level signals. So far as I know, from the list you mentioned, the only suitable candidate is XLR mic cable, but I'm not familiar with the digital standards. Look up the Cat5 and MIDI standards to see what they require. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted August 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 sweet. ill check into it, do i have to have a ground btw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted August 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 hmmm what do you think about this, its the cable, not the connector, ill just be using the connector of this cable but i guess its only as fast as its connector right: The backplane version uses two single ended signals and operates at 12.5 [TTL], 25 [TTL], or 50Mbits/sec [bTL or ECL]. The cable (differential) version operates at 100, 200, or 400Mbits/sec, [800Mbits/sec for 1394b] using half-duplex [full duplex 8B/10B encoding for 1394b]. Devices on the bus are Hot-Swappable. It supports up to 63 devices at a maximum cable distance between devices of 4.5 meters. The maximum devices on the bus is 16 allowing a total maximum cable distance of 72 meters. Transmitting data over CAT5 cable allows data at 100Mbps to travel 100m [1394b]. Fiber cable will allow 100 meter distances at any speed [depends on the type of fiber cable]. ------------------------- also check out this: http://www.interfacebus.com/Design_Connector_Firewire.html#e any advice on if that would work fine? thx for the help so far! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknohippy Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 The output from a guitar pickup has bugger all to do with data rates/speeds and the like. Those figures are all to do with digital data, a guitar outputs an analogue signal. Basically pickups generate a varying voltage, which your amp turns into sound. You need two wires between guitar and amp, one for signal one for ground. To avoid interferance from external electromagnetic fields it's best to use a shielded cable for this. Basically a shielded cable has a metal mesh outer shield around the inner core. This shield is often used for the ground. This outer mesh does it's best to absorb any interferance and try to lessen the amount that gets through to the core carrying the signal. By changing what plugs and sockets you use it's not really making any difference to the basic concept. If you fancy it though you could use XLR leads or stereo TRS jacks to carry a balanced signal down a cable. This would be even more resistant to interferance, although would really only be worth doing if whatever you were plugging your guitar into was capapable of recieving a balanced signal. Which guitar amps ain't but most mixing desks are. A balanced cable requires 3 wires, one for HOT one for COLD and one for GROUND. The HOT signal is your normal signal, the COLD carries the normal signal INVERTED, and the ground is the ground. The sound the signal represents can be pictured as a wave, it you turn this wave upside down, that's the inverted signal. This means that any interferance will be picked up by both the hot and the cold signals, at the other end of the cable the cold signal is then inverted again so it now matches the hot signal. The clever bit is if any interferance was picked up then it will exist in both signals, but as the cold signal has be re-inverted this means that the interferance on the cold signal is the inverse of the interferance on the hot signal, although the actual wanted signal is no longer inverse. So if you simply add the two signals back together the two lots of interferance cancel each other out and leave you with the original signal minus the interferance. You want pics? So you could make a guitar with an XLR socket or stereo jack, which are both capable of carrying the three signals. But like I said, whatever you are plugging into needs to know how to invert the cold back and do the addition. If you just fancy the idea of something funky on your guitar like an XLR plug then you could just wire a cable so that it used only two of the pins and connected to a jack at the other end that you could plug into any amp. Basically quality mic cable don't differ alot from quality intrument cable. Cat 5 I wouldn't be up for using for intrument voltages, the seperate cores are a little thin. Great for digital signals though where intererance isn't such an issue with solutions like error correction and the like. Now if you fancied putting an ADC (Analog to Digital Converter) inside the guitar and then using a cable to carry the digital signal, you could use CAT5, or even optical cable with the right hardware. Of course at the other end again you will need similar systems to plug it into. (Which you don't get on guitar amps!) The real question is, WHY? Quality 6mm jack instrument cable works fine? If you want a better quality then go balanced, if you just want the funky look of an XLR jack then just wire up a cable with signal and ground and ignore the third pin. This is what cheap XLR mics do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted August 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 nice post man, i appreciate it, i kinda allready know all about cables and all, ive made quite a few xlrs. i was planning on just using a different style connector though, and was wondering if the connector could mess up the signal any. i'll be using some good mogami mic cable and was just wondering would a connector like usb, firewire, cat5, midi or any other ones cause any problems and for what reason. see what i mean? thx for the response! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted August 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 oh, and the connector would only be different on one end, the guitar end, the amp end would be typical 1/4 inst cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknohippy Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 There's not a great amount area on the contact points of cat5 not so mention wiring decent screened cable to a cat5 plug would be not that simple. They are wired using a tool simlar to that you use on phone sockects if you've ever wired one of them. Same with usb and midi, nice large area on the ground for but the signal pins are really rather small. They'd probably work fine, but I don't reckon they'd perform as well as a 6mm jack. For something funky a nice XLR socket and plug at the guitar end would look cool though, and would be perfectly up to the job. I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted August 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 i agree, but since you have the signal split up over 5 or 6 smaller pins instead of one big one that could cause problems? and exactly how much surface area do you need? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ansil Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 you dont' need a lot of surface area man, i got away with making my own end pieces out of two magnets and some slug pole pieces.. worked great. dont' know why i stopped using it. kept my guitar from beign stolen a few times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted August 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 ok, theres both ends of the connector. i think i might epoxy the connector into the guitar so i dont want to pull it out. do you belive that is enough contact area? and how would i wire it? 3 for data and 1 ground or data+/data-/ground and then leave one empty? thx for the help so far! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ansil Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 do not leave one empty as it could lead to parasitic rf interference.. why not 3+1 sounds good. on the same note if you have active pickups you could put a usb jack in there and a voltage regulator and get powered pickups.. lol j/j i love usb sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted August 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 so instead of an on board battery have a remote power source for active pickups? or did i read that wrong? hmm, so that would leave only 2 post. you sure thats enough contact area? looks pretty small. but then again i dont know how much is needed, cant figure its alot coming from a guitar before the amp. but i may be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Contact area is a non-issue, so long as the conductors are both clean. At the levels that pickups operate, even hot active pickups, current is tiny, and just about any contact that you can see with the naked eye will perform without problems, provided it doesn't exhibit a large capacitance to ground. Concentrate on shielding, simplicity and mechanical strength, which almost inevitably leads you back to XLRs and 1/4" plugs. If it ain't broke, I don't fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted August 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 im following you guys! thx for all the replies! check this out.... if i use usb connectors and use one of the 4 plugs for a ground, and use hi quality mogami shielded cable where could that go wrong? usb plugs fit tight to so i dont think that would be a problem! this is becoming an intresting discussion. thanks guys! keep em coming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Aren't USB connectors a bit delicate for a cable that gets dragged around on stage? Might work for studio playing, but I wouldn't trust it to gig with, not with as many heavy duty XLR cables as I've seen accidently destroyed in use. is this just for novelty, or do you have some practical reason for reinventing the wheel, so to speak? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted August 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 or do you have some practical reason for reinventing the wheel, so to speak? yes, yes i do. actually i just like to try different things if they arent to much trouble to make work... ive got a usb keyboard laying in front of me right now, its the square type pin plug like in the pic i posted. and when i plug it in its kind of a pain to get out, because the recpticle connector is also a box, and when they are inset each other its alot of side contact area, so there is no side to side motion, and they have a little lip that requires to you kind of tug it out. frickin thing is actually harder to unplug than any 1/4" trs ive ever seen soooo... dunno. look likes it would work, im easy on cables to. i just was making sure the connector could handle audio applications as i may be epoxying a connector in the side of my guitar one last chance..... you sure it would work? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 ...actually i just like to try different things if they arent to much trouble to make work... No trouble at all - for me! By all means, give it a try! ...one last chance..... you sure it would work? lol Only one way to find out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted August 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 i agree, i will try it. what ansil said about the active pickups..... i think the stock cable is meant to carry +5vdc or whatever. soooo thats 5 volts right? but isnt a active pickup 9volts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted August 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 edit double post arrg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ansil Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 yes active systems are 9v but as little power as they use you could use a doubler and it would work fine. the typical usb can source up to an amp of current at 5volts so it will not overload it. yes it is a little thin or delicate to be using on stage but you never know it could have a practicality. the ground can share the voltage ground with no problem so just use one or both of the data lines for the hot side for the pickups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.