hyunsu Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Wow.. really good.. how long time is need to cut 1 body? i listen .. CNC machine make PRS archtop body is need 40min... matal body is enable same quailty same sound body.. amazing body.. ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalcarver Posted November 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Here's a link to some guys that were doing metal guitars on a CNC: Xtreme guitar I build my guitars by hand on old manual machines. As far as that graphite neck goes I love it. The fret job was dorky. Had to bring down 3-4 frets and I never did ask them what kind of a job it was to refret. But playing it is a dream. Slick and fast. It's very thin and I've noteced that folks who have a habit of wiggling their fingers really fast trip up a little until they get the feel. It couples very well with the Al . Acoustically, this is the loudest of the guitars I've made so far. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 I'm fascinated by this eddy current question. I've spent a while studying pickups, magnetics and such in my own kind of way. There's a lot of voodoo out there! I figure, if they can put pickups into lipstick tubes, or mount a humbucker in a nickel coated can on a steel base, are eddy currents really that bad? What I'd be looking for in a pickup is character. Eddy current's do make a serious impact on efficiency and tone but could it not be seen to be of benefit to character if these effects were taken into account during the design phase and with some experimentation. After all, inconsistant winding patterns and slightly unequal humbucking coils have an impact. Both are widely acknowledged to be crucial to the best vintage and hand wound pickups. Any taker's on this. Metal carver ...did you notice any ill effects to the pickups tone on these alloy guitars? One other thing. Is there a problem with temperature changes and tuning stability. Stage lights could heat it up. They say that that was a problem with the old Travis Bean and Kramer al necks. Oh yes and...how do you protect the finish from oxidization. Are they lacquered to preserve the shine? Do temperature changes effect the coating...what do you use? psw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalcarver Posted November 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 When I talked to John Veleno he said that any pickup he used sounded better in the Al guitar. He especially noted how much quieter that single coils were. I'm doing my first single coil guitar right now so we'll see. I'm not sure about this eddy current stuff. It seems to me that any eddy currents that were set up would cancel each other out since the metal body surrounds the pickup. I think the timbre of the sound is more affected by the variations in the magnetic field by the string than the shape of that field. It might affect the overall efficiency of the p/u but I'm not set up to measure that. As far as temperature variations I haven't tested the stage light thing. I think that the Beans and Kramers were more affected because of the neck. Wood has a thermal expansion rate 1/10 as much as aluminum. I think both of those have wood and aluminum in the neck. If one of those is exposed to wide temperature swings it would probably curl up like a thermostat. I've use either wood or graphite necks and the only overlap with the Al is the mounting bolts. The aluminum is a big heat sink and is slow to exchange heat with air so if it does get cold it takes a lot longer to warm up at room temperature than the wood. I'm using 6061 t6 aluminum and they are all bare so far. I really like the hand polished finish and it wears quite well. It does scratch but the effect is more like silverware. One is three years old and still looks nice. The engine turning was originally used on the soft metal of pocket watches. It doesn't show scratches and wear as much as smooth metal. I usually rest my pinkie on the body while playing and after a few hours the tip of your finger is smugded a little grey. Probably a white shirt might show a little grey after a long evening - rinses out and doesn't stain. The guitar I'm putting together now will be anodized black and that should be a smooth hard surface. I'm also looking into bright dipping them and clear anodizing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Great reply I was thinking of using a really resonant soft wood like cedar for the body with an alloy sheet top and a clear resin over the whole thing. Perhaps a high polish and brushed design on it. I'm a little concerned that temperature variations will make the whole thing crackle and pop! An all alloy body like yours would solve the problem. In addition to my last comments...the pole pieces of the pickup also induce eddy currents, so...what the heck. I think it's best to ignore these things when the results look and sound sooo cool! psw PS I'm working on a pickup that would look sooo good on this type of guitar. I'll send you a pic when I'm done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalcarver Posted November 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 I think you could put a metal top on a soft wood - you just have to plan for the expansion. slotted screw holes or maybe inset into grooves in the wood. Could look really nice. Here's a list of folks I've found on the web who are making aluminum guitars. http://www.veleno.net/ http://www.zeroguitars.com/ http://www.pkselective.com/ http://www.specimenproducts.com/index.html http://www.industrialguitar.com/ http://www.sprucehillguitars.com/ and an article on aluminum instruments:Mugwumps aluminum instruments article Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 Hmmm.... how much does a block of aluminum for a body cost? Also, where can someone buy just one body block, and not end up buying in bulk commercial sizes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 MC that's another great reply. I'll have to study how these guys do it. So you think I need to make the top and bottom separate and screw together...hmmm...ok, got me thinking...perhaps an alloy sandwich. I was thinking of mounting the pickups etc from behind anyway. Here's a question you may be able to answer. But first, WARNING this is hypothetical and potentially very dangerous so don't anyone test it for me. I'm serious! Could you use a home wood router to shape thin alloy sheet or are you looking at taking you eyes ears and limbs off from flying shrapnel? When I say thin, I mean 1.5-3mm and I'm thinking small hardware component shapes (doing a bit of prototyping on bridges, etc) or in this context, around the edge of the body with say an edge trimmer? I'm doing a little too much filing and grinding. Perhaps there's some special bits. Maybe a cut down round file with a guide. Now folks, I've escaped some flying projectiles from power tools before so really heed the warning above. MC and others probably/definitly have more experience with the material than me an most others. I'll have to check those sites a bit later...I've seen the spruce hill one. I like some of the surface designs they use. Are they carved out or say pressed and welded do you think? Thank's for the great thread, you've really got me enthused! psw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren wilson Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 Don't forget the Tokai Talbo! And i think a saw might be a better tool for cutting aluminum than a router. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 PSW, theoricaly speaking you could since the milling machine is nothing than a router on steroids... that said Ihave to vote against it, simply because the mill have a stronger motor and variable speed which most router don't have and the most important thing of all is that the piece of aluminum is strongly attached in the table, and the mill arbor ain't going anywere either. With a router you have to either handle the router or the piece of aluminum which is a recipe for disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalcarver Posted November 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2004 Actually, I've used a hand held router on .060 (1.5mm) sheet aluminum using a carbide bit with the edging bearing. Made some Tele pickguards just hand guiding around a form plate. The work needs to be clamped pretty good and you don't let go while the thing is on. You can rub on some hand soap on the cut line to keep the chips from sticking to the cutter. WD-40 works excellent but then the fumes could kill you. Very noisy but not much extra pressure to cut. An increase in pressure to move it means that the cutter is loading up with chips. If it gets gobbed up you can pick it out easily. Carbide wood cutting bits are actually pretty close to the right cutting geometry for aluminum. I've cut thick plates with a skil saw which is probably the noisiest industrial job I've ever had. A good HSS band saw blade with a deep gullet can cut a fairly thick plate on a wood cutting band saw. Takes a lot longer than wood and don't push too hard. Band sawing to a line and then filing the rest of the way is really pretty quick and those big disk sanders work very fast on thin sheet. Some folks are using alu in inlays because it stays bright under a finish. I think the Fouke Industrial guitars use uhmw sheet plastic sandwiched between alu plates The last guitar started out as a 25lb. (11kg) chunk and 20-1/2 lbs ended up on the floor. About $100 for a that piece delivered in Alaska. 1" (25mm) 6061 T6. It's probably the most common grade. It stays shinier than 7075 or 2024. Tonally you need the t6 hardness which 2024 & 7075 come in but pure aluminum like they use in castings and the 5000 series which is meant for welding don't ring like the harder alloys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted November 26, 2004 Report Share Posted November 26, 2004 Here's a list of folks I've found on the web who are making aluminum guitars. You forgot my personal favorite: http://www.girlbrand.com/ He uses an aluminum frame and various materials for the top and back... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 26, 2004 Report Share Posted November 26, 2004 What a fantasticly quirky sense of humour and eye for design that guy has. I wonder how those GirlBrand guitars sound! Thanks for that, I really enjoyed looking at that...the toggle labels are something else (want=need and reality=illusion) terrific! I always thought Gibson's rhythm=treble label pointless, meaningless and misleading, so why not play it up! MC...another great reply as always! I thought it would work. Perhaps if I were to sandwhich the plate between two sacrificial ply or MDF pieces screwed down around the edges to a bench and routed through the top one and the aluminium into the bottom, this would provide more safety. Would you use a larger or smaller bit...do you want speed or to run the router a little slower? Im making some pretty small parts here for bridges and such at the moment...I'm all hacksaws and files ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalcarver Posted November 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2004 It's not so much the nature of the tool as it is the part where the eyeball connects to the headbone. It takes skill to use a hacksaw and a file is really your basic cutting tool after a chisel and you can screw up just as bad and I can prove it. Anyway, use a smaller cutter and higher speed so that you're not moving much metal. The sandwich idea sounds good, it'll keep any burrs from getting in the way. I've had success with double back tape like they use on carpets for workholding. Might work too good on really thin stuff or a combination sandwich/tape. Earplugs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 27, 2004 Report Share Posted November 27, 2004 Thanks MC...I might give it a go sometime. For the moment on the bridges and pickup parts I'm making at the moment, I'll stick to the files, saw grinder and dremel. I'm just thinking ahead that once the prototypes work out I'll need to duplicate them and this may be the ticket. For a guitar top, perhaps something like 3mm sheet, hammered into a rough curve then take the belt sander to it. I'd like somethin with some curves to it like a Strat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalcarver Posted November 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2004 If you're planning on hand forming (hammering) alu sheet you might need to pick a softer grade. Alu in the t6 hardness will crack after forming very much. If there are no soft grades available you can anneal alu sheet by first using an acetylene torch and blackening the aluminum then clean up the flame and heat the alu until the carbon burns off and the alu is clean looking again - no farther. Then beat the snot out of it. 3mm sounds a little thick For a similar dimensioned piece alumiunobtainium is a lot heavier than wood. Plus if you're hammering compound curves into it, that increases the stiffness and you can go even thinner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalcarver Posted November 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2004 A sandbag some rubber and wooden mallets and you get most any shape you need. Copper sheathed strat? hm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalcarver Posted November 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 Didn't have a pic of the back on the latest but heres the first lp back. They're all diamond plate keyhole shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren wilson Posted November 30, 2004 Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 Wow... that looks so awesome. I love how thin they are! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 30, 2004 Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 I believe fender have just come out with a copper strat....I saw it somewhere just the other day! Any tips on glueing aluminium...I think the natural anodising, even when I sand it just before gluing, seems to effect strength even with epoxy...? Beautiful work...looks expensive...I don't know how you keep it so shiny, maybe it's the grade of alluminium your using but the stuff I've got goes a dull grey pretty quick. Can you explain a little about the grade of aluminium you use for the best sound. Different grades have a different hardness, (am I right?) and are more brittle and harder to work I gather. I'm using 6061 t6 aluminum The last guitar started out as a 25lb. (11kg) chunk and 20-1/2 lbs ended up on the floor. About $100 for a that piece delivered in Alaska. 1" (25mm) 6061 T6. It's probably the most common grade. It stays shinier than 7075 or 2024. Tonally you need the t6 hardness which 2024 & 7075 come in but pure aluminum like they use in castings and the 5000 series which is meant for welding don't ring like the harder alloys. Repeating your words here so you don't have to say 'em again. The stuff I get in extruded sections and sheets are just common hardware store stock. Stiff but pretty soft to carve and bend. Should I be looking for a different source. I have no idea what I'm working with, is there anyway of telling by looking at it. Where would you be going for more precise materials? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanKirk Posted November 30, 2004 Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 Gigliotti Guitars makes metal capped guitars. He has USA Custom Guitars do all the wood work and he assembles them. They're strat & tele bodies with a thin aluminum top. I didn't think they would sound good but I've played one through an old Vox tube amp and sounded great and played even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 1, 2004 Report Share Posted December 1, 2004 I was just checking out the Industrial guitars ... great stuff ... more like I was thinking of making but I wouldn't want all those rivets. I wonder if anyone has any ideas for attaching the top other than this idea ... some kind of super / super glue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 1, 2004 Report Share Posted December 1, 2004 Thankx VanKirk. Those Gigliotti Guitars look interesting. I wonder what aspects of the construction he's pending for a patent. It would be a shame if the concept of metal topped wooden guitars was patentable. I guess it's to do with his specific construction technique. Can you get access to the pending patents on the USPTO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanKirk Posted December 1, 2004 Report Share Posted December 1, 2004 Gigliotti's son worked at the local Guitar Center here in Tacoma, WA and let me play one. Kinda funny if you look at the website. Notice how all the pics of the headstocks have his logo over them? Fender sent him a couple of threats so he's changing his headstock design. Maybe that's why he's looking into a patent...to get them off his back (just a guess though). If you look carefully at the pic of the guy playing one on-stage you can tell that they corrected the pic to hide the headstock. A few months ago it showed a fender tele headstock. He outsources most all of the work which is probably why they seem a little expensive to me. He has USACG build the necks and bodies, sends it to Roxy for painting then has someone else do the set-up. They really are nice playing guitars though but for the $ they better be, hehe. Doh! sorry I highjacked the thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren wilson Posted December 1, 2004 Report Share Posted December 1, 2004 I was just checking out the Industrial guitars ... great stuff ... more like I was thinking of making but I wouldn't want all those rivets. I wonder if anyone has any ideas for attaching the top other than this idea ... some kind of super / super glue? I was thinking of doing something similar, too. Maybe epoxy would do the trick? Silicone would probably hold, but the softness of it might dampen any resonance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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