Body Repair Woes

[Neon_Knightmare]

First and foremost, newbie alert. Sorta.

Hi everybody! I've been scouring the tutorials on this site for the past week or so (AWESOME info) in the hopes of breathing some life back into a B.C. Rich "Rich Bich" I've had floating around for the past 5 years or so.

I got the guitar used, and the previous owner had clearly done some serious (and horribly misguided) modifications. The stock pickups were replaced with (incorrectly wired) EMG Selects and the paint job was stripped and replaced with some gaudy metallic purple crap. He apparently also must have dropped the guitar out of a moving vehicle onto some rough asphalt or something, because one of the points on the bottom "bat wing" (for those of you familiar with the Bich design) is gouged beyond recognition. He'd apparently also never heard of such alien terms as "primer," "filler," or, well, "sand paper," since every imperfection in the wood stood out in perfect clarity through the paint. "Aesthetic value!" some of you cry. With mahogany, ash, and the like, sure. With agathis (read: plywood)? I think not.

So you can guess what has happened since. I've stripped all the paint from the body (it apparently used to be hot pink, as some of the old finish remains in the pickup cavities), and I'm going over it in the hopes of repairing all the dings, scratches, gouges, and broken points.

I've been using Elmer's brand wood filler to do most of the dirty work, and after having done some reading (having initially mistaken it for grain filler -- doh), I'm beginning to wonder something. I plan on re-painting the body with DupliColor rattlecans (metallic black with some bright red on the upper tips for that "dipped in blood" effect), so the primer stage is a given. Should I use some sort of sanding sealer before I spray the primer, just to keep the filler putty from doing anything crazy (i.e., lifting), or should plain old primer over the putty be OK? Or should I maybe slap a paper-thin layer of Bondo over it? Hehe.

Ah, well. Thanks for any advice you guys can give me. Cheers!

[AlGeeEater]

Yes you should use some sort of sanding sealer. I know Drak will probaly kill me for telling you that(he hates them if i recall?). You can pick up a good sanding sealer at your local Home Depot. Its called Parks Sanding Sealer.

One more thing, wood filler like elmers is a bad idea. It spells disaster over time because it shrinks and expands. Next time try Bondo

You may have to use granfiller though if im not mistaken. Im not 100 percent sure of that though..

Chris

Edited February 22, 2005 by AlGeeEater

[Maiden69]

OK, before you regret it, stop what you are doing and remove all that Elmers goo stuff that you had used and redo it with bondo, not the glazing putty, but the polyester filler (2 part bondo). As soon as you paint that Elmers stuff, it will start to shrink, and your paint is going to crack.

Once you do that you got 2 alternatives, use duplicolor with a duplicolor primer, (use the gray high build primer or the white one, the brown primer sucks) then top with the colors you want, or use nitro (DEFT or other brands) sanding sealer, then use Createx for your colors, and top with nitro. This is my recomendation, as far as how to do it, go here .

[Devon Headen]

There's no reason to use sanding sealer and primer. They accomplish the exact same thing, but the primer is opaque and the SS is clear.

[AlGeeEater]

Thats true? Doesnt primer help to color coats stick better in fill minor scratches? Sanding sealer seals the wood and grain completely and has soap in it for easier sanding. They accomplish the same thing??

Edited February 22, 2005 by AlGeeEater

[Maiden69]

No AlGee, if you read the tutorials, they are the same thing, just that primer is poly or acrylic and SSealer is usualy nitro,(at least the DEFT), and that's why I said to use SS with DEFT and primer with duplicolor, just to keep the same based type paint. SS is a hell of a lot better than duplicolor IMO. And if you are using stains like I did on my blue guitar, it is priceless to fill the grain, try doing that with laquer and it will take for ever, the SS have more solids on its base but once coated with nitro it becomes crystal clear.

And the soap thing, I heard it before, but I have no idea if it is actual soap, since I don't wet sand it, I dry sand with 320 up to 600 before starting to use clear, the concept of primer is to prep the area for paint, to cover up any small imperfection and to ensure the adhesion of the paint, same thing as the SS

[AlGeeEater]

ah i see. But why do people cover the whole body in sanding sealer then use primer?

[Devon Headen]

I've never seen anyone do that.

[Neon_Knightmare]

Maiden -- Thanks for the heads up. I had half-figured that was coming. I have a quart of Bondo fiberglass resin jelly ( http://www.bondo-online.com/catalog_item.asp?itemNbr=501 ) but have never used the stuff before. I was sort of hoping I wouldn't have to, since I started the Elmer's crap about a year ago. I've also been unable to find any tutorials or info on using Bondo on guitar bodies -- possibly because of how it reacts with nitrocellulose, but it's not like I'm using nitro in the first place. Anyone have any good links?

Also, about the Elmer's putty... How can I get that all out? Steel wool and water?

Thanks for the help!

[AlGeeEater]

I've never seen anyone do that.

←

...i do

its pointless to do it?

[Devon Headen]

Basically. I guess you can if you really want to, but I'd be worried about compatability. It is pointless.

[AlGeeEater]

cool thanks. Since im not in school, im not learning but you just taught me something

[Doc]

Hi there AlgeeEater,

If you are interested here are a few tips.

1) Get all of the Elmers out. All of it. Use a chisel if you have too. It is an acrylic goo only good to putty nail holes under latex paint. Nasty bad goo.

2)Mix up the Bondo and slather it on. Until it cures all the way it's easy to shape and takes any finish great. Sand it untill all the even minor scratches are out. This means to like maybe 280 grit. It's easier to sand than to fill later.

3) Sanding sealer is a lacquer primer. It has stearates in it which are chemicals that have a soapy greasy feel and make it easy to sand. I tint mine myself to a lighter version of what ever I'm shooting. Dark grey under black, Rust red under reds and oranges, etc. Remember, some of the stuff we use is mainly for cars and called primer. some is for wood and called sealer. Not much difference in makeup or application.

4) Put your color on in any gloss, the top coats and the rubout give you the final gloss, satin, etc.

5) Be careful with Deft. I use a ton of it, but because it is a brushing lacquer it drys more slowly and sometimes will "pull' a color coat if you put it on top. Always save some heartache and make a test board.

There is a ton of bad information out there. A lot of it is available at a Home Depot paint department. Look in your yellow pages and find where the auto body guys buy their paint. The heathen rednecks behind the counter are generally very knowledgable and are usually really generous with help. You should be buying most of your stuff to do this there anyhow. It's just better stuff. If you want to avoid them go to Re-ranch.

(I can call them heathens cause I are one too.)

Happy trails.

[Neon_Knightmare]

Thanks for the info, Doc.

One last question, concerning the Elmer's gunk... How to get it off. This stuff has been dried and sanded into the body for quite some time. Will acetone or mineral spirits work? Since I'm redoing it all in Bondo, I'm not overly concerned about hurting the wood, obviously. I was wondering if anyone else had experience dealing with something like this -- you know, before I start dousing my precious Rich Bich in any more abrasives. lol.

[Doc]

There probably are some solvents that will take the nasty stuff off, but I think that you will have a gooey mess left. Acetone will normally soften stuff like this and you can go at it with a wire brush afterwards to get out the stuff in the crevices.

I'd go mechnical with a chisel that you don't care too much about and skip the solvents altogether if you can. Whatever you decide get as much out as you can 'cause it's just an aggravation looking to happen.

[Maiden69]

I won't recomend using any solvent on that, that stuff is so lame that you should be able to use a steel brush to scrape it out, and the fiberglass resin is not to good for that, I use that for mold making for speakers and other stuff, but for the guitar body you need this one

http://www.bondo-online.com/catalog_item.asp?itemNbr=176

just make sure that you use enough to fill the holes and scratches, not too heavy or you will be sanding for a while. Once that's done you can use what ever primer of SS you want.

DEFT is the stuff Doc, may be you have used it wrong, I use the spray one, and it's available at Lowes and Walmart, Home Depot does not carry it. And if you had colors that got raised by it, is because they were not compatible, hence a mistake by the painter. I have made plenty of this mistakes myself. I now use createx water based paints for my solid colrs, metalic, pearls and transparent colors, becasue it dries superfast, a lot of peopel here have use it with no problem, to include Jeremy (LGM) and Dave, which have some very nice paintt jobs in their belt, and I got this one that I just finished with Createx and DEFT as the clear, also this one got DEFT as a clear, do you think I would even dare using something that "might" not work, right?

[Doc]

The Deft you have to watch out for is the non-rattle can variety. The stuff in the spray cans is absolutely the best thing that is readily available outside of professional coatings, and it even beats some of those. The gallon can variety saves you a bunch of money though if you have an HVLP rig. I know a professional luthier that starts his pricing on flat tops at close to what some cars cost and he uses Deft for most of his clear coats. If your going clear all the way over stain I don't know of anything that looks better or goes on easier.

[Devon Headen]

Doc is right. The Deft in the quarts or gallons is supposed to be "brushable" and it is a little bit hard on coats you lay down before. If you dust on a couple've coats before laying down a wet coat it helps quite a lot.

[Neon_Knightmare]

Heh, the entire body was coated in the Elmer's gunk. When you guys said it was acrylic-based, a little bell went off in my head, so I just took the guitar out back and hosed it with aerosol paint stripper. BAMF! Lifted the crap right off. Now I just have to spot sand on the edges, and she's ready for Bondo. I'm probably going to break out the digital camera and put up a "Work in Progress" thread. Yay. Thanks again for all the help.

[Maiden69]

Doc is right. The Deft in the quarts or gallons is supposed to be "brushable" and it is a little bit hard on coats you lay down before. If you dust on a couple've coats before laying down a wet coat it helps quite a lot.

←

I understand this and it was the same mistake I used to do even with rattle cans when I started, until a friend told me that no matter what ever color you were spraying, to put a dust coat and let it tack for about 2-5 min depending on the paint, and then start the coats.

I think that Stew sells an extender for nitro, if not I think that thinner will work for nitro, I haven't done this since I got no spray rig, but it is worth trying, it will help dillute the nitro and make it more sprayable

[Devon Headen]

I'm sure it is, and I'm gonna test it to make sure, but is the Deft lacquer (non rattlecan variety) compatible with the same finishes as the rattlecan stuff? I'm spraying some of the rattlecans on a custom color I got mixed up (I'm not sure what paint it is, other than that it's top-of-the line auto paint) and it's going really slow building up. I was thinking I could just finish it off with a gun if the paints will work together. I'm sure they do, but I'll test it anyway if nobody has any firsthand experience.

[Doc]

What have you thinned your auto paint with?

I used to go through four or five five gallon cans of the regular spray gun Deft a week, so I have a bit of experience with it.

It is really a crap shoot as to how it will react with different finishes.

It will usually pull urethanes and other non-lacquer thinner solvent finishes.

If they're cured hard as a rock sometimes you get away with it.

If you are using a lacquer based paint the best I can tell you is to make a test board. If you can't do this put down four or five dust coats getting just a little heavier with each one until you get to a full wet coat. Cross your fingers and hold your breath.

This is a brushing lacquer which means that the solvents evaporate more slowly to give it time to level out. The drawback is that the solvents have more time to do naughty things to whatever they are going over.

The test board is the trick.

[Devon Headen]

That's the problem, I'm not sure what the auto paint is. I'm assuming it's lacquer, but I guess it's possible it's some kind of urethane. The place I got it mixed it in a rattlecan. I guess I'll just test it like I said.

[Maiden69]

It should be the same thing, as far as the can and the gallon one, but I just checked their site and they don't recomend thinning DEFT site , that's realy bad if it is as thick as you guys mentioned, I haven't used it yet, but I was planning on gettng one can to try.