Gibson Seconds

[unclej]

does anyone know if and/or how gibson marks their seconds? i took a 95' gibson gospel in the other day on consignment. three out of the six tuners were crooked and i had to do a complete level and dress on the frets before it was even playable. the fret ends would have brought blood if you played it for long.

i know that it was won as a door prize at a concert which makes me think it might be a second but i always thought they marked them as such.

[GodBlessTexas]

What I found on the web:

Gibson often marked inferior quality guitars as "seconds", and sold them at a discount to dealers or employees. These markings were stamped into the wood on the back of the peghead. A "2" stamp is sometimes seen, designating a "second", which had some cosmetic flaw. If there is a serial number on the back of the peghead, the "2" is usually seen centered above or below it. Also sometimes stamped was "CULL", which is another designation of a second. Again, this stamp is seen on the back of the peghead. The worse Gibson reject is the "BGN" stamp, designating that instrument as a "bargin" guitar. These were only sold to employees at substantial discounts. This stamp is also seen on the back of the peghead. Sometimes the "BGN" is stamped vertically with the "N" below the "G" which is below the "B". BGN instruments weren't acceptable to Gibson as sellable to the public.

All second instruments are usually worth less than the same guitar that is not a second (given condition as the same). BGN instruments are worth less than a second instrument because these tend to have some fairly serious cosmetic flaw.

It could also be a fake. I've seen a lot of fake Martins that supposedly came out of China recently.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

[crafty]

Yeah, they sell them to Guitar Center and Musician's Friend, who then sell them at full price

[Gemleggat]

I dont know how many brand new Gibsons i have fret dressed over the years, its quality control rather than them being seconds. I have never heard of gibson selling seconds.

[unclej]

I dont know how many brand new Gibsons i have fret dressed over the years, its quality control rather than them being seconds. I have never heard of gibson selling seconds.

i think you're right about the quality control..i'm certain that this isn't a fake and it is a montana made guitar. the body work, neck joint, binding and everything else is good quality and it sounds great i was just surprised at the shoddy fret work and especially at the crooked tuners. not what i'd expect out of a $1000 gibson.

[crafty]

You wouldn't believe how many bad fretjobs and crooked tuners I saw when I was looking for a Les Paul during the past year. It's pathetic. If they didn't have the holy grail of tone, Gibson wouldn't be worth looking at anymore.

[jaguarcat311]

You wouldn't believe how many bad fretjobs and crooked tuners I saw when I was looking for a Les Paul during the past year. It's pathetic. If they didn't have the holy grail of tone, Gibson wouldn't be worth looking at anymore.

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yea, the gibson body/necks are all i like gibsons for. everything else on the guitar goes

[HeavnerGuitarWorks]

Gibson does not sell seconds and haven't for many years. I worked at the Memphis plant for several years and nearly cried my second day on the job when my boss showed me what to do with the seconds (after I dropped a Gothic SG on head first on the concrete floor but that's another story)... cut em' up like a jigsaw puzzle on the bandsaw. That's why you see the occassional Les Paul on Ebay that has been put back together... employees go dumpster diving after hours, which you would be fired and prosecuted if caught.

I'll never forget right before 9/11. We were working on a US flag Les Paul as a limited edition. They had hired 9-10 new employees and were showing them around. Right as they got to the final assembly area, my boss smashed one of the flag guitars on the floor Pete Townsend style. You should've seen the looks on their faces. That's priceless! They ended up trying to cash in on 9/11 with the flag Les Paul before they realized that was a tacky idea and cut them all up but 3 that I know of. I won one of them at the employee party for the opening of the Gibson Lounge and the other 2 were given to some friends of the CEO, Henry Juszkiewicz.

As for quality control... it totally sucked at the Memphis plant. We shipped out broken guitars every other day just to meet our daily quota. It's stated on the shipping box that any problems upon receipt are to be handled with the carrier. So we'd ship a broken guitar, the store would get their money back from the carrier (insurance), we'd get the broken guitar back... fix it and resell it. Sounds like fraud to me! When they hired me, they made it known that they don't like hiring guitarists because guitarists are more picky and slow production down. The majority of the Memphis plant was 50+ year old black ladies that couldn't tell you to this day what all the different parts of the guitar are... just the ones they install. It was a dream job that turned into a nightmare and made me hate the site of guitars. I actually quit playing for 2 years after working there. I will never buy another Gibson unless it's a '59 Les Paul owned by Jimmy Page and only costs $100.00.

Back to the question... I think it was somewhere in the mid to late 70s that they stopped selling seconds and the Montana plant opened in 1974 so it could be a factory second... I'll have to check my info when I get home from work to get the correct year they stopped selling seconds. I'll let you know. What year is the guitar?

[Jester700]

So why do people still buy Gibson? Aren't Heritage, Hamer, and maybe even freakin' SAMICK out-Gibsoning Gibson? Or is the name on the headstock worth that much? And I thought that high schoolers with their "gotta have Nike air pumps because Jimmy has 'em" was stupid... ;-)

[Jivin]

I've played some Tokai guitars that would give a Gibson a run for its money too...

[mledbetter]

i've shopped at a few wholesale seconds outlets and never seen an actual gibson. Epis get stamped as seconds all the time. Generally it is an agreement with the wholesaler. The Serial must be defaced and a new serial put on the guitar.

Gibsons quality is horrendous these days. Last time I was in Nashville I went to the Gibson showcase and spent about an hour playing there. Hands down the best guitar in there was a G&L legacy. I couldn't stop playing the thing. All the pauls were gritty, not set up, rusted strings, sounded horrible, etc.. even 6000 dollar custom jobs., It was pitiful.

Now their acoustics were all nice, and you get a 6000 dollar gibson mandolin you'll get a nice instrument, but the electrics are some kind of afterthought to them i'm afraid.

[GodBlessTexas]

So why do people still buy Gibson?  Aren't Heritage, Hamer, and maybe even freakin' SAMICK out-Gibsoning Gibson?  Or is the name on the headstock worth that much?  And I thought that high schoolers with their "gotta have Nike air pumps because Jimmy has 'em" was stupid... ;-)

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Most people who would buy a Gibson are buying PRS guitars instead. They figure if they're going to spen the money, they might as well get their money's worth. I've always wanted an LP, but I've never found one that didn't have some really annoying flaw that made me unable to pay ~$1000 for it.

The last Gibson I bought was a Gibson SG-1 back in 1994 when I graduated from High School and went off to college. I actually skipped my AP English final to go to the Guitar Center Memorial Day sale. I regret selling it, but a friend still has it and I'm trying to buy it back from him now.

Remember the Alamo, and God bless Texas...

Edited August 5, 2005 by GodBlessTexas

[Jivin]

If your going to get either, get a Carvin instead and then spend the rest on something else

Everybody wins!

- Dan

[GodBlessTexas]

I'll never forget right before 9/11.  We were working on a US flag Les Paul as a limited edition.  They had hired 9-10 new employees and were showing them around.  Right as they got to the final assembly area, my boss smashed one of the flag guitars on the floor Pete Townsend style.  You should've seen the looks on their faces.  That's priceless!  They ended up trying to cash in on 9/11 with the flag Les Paul before they realized that was a tacky idea and cut them all up but 3 that I know of.  I won one of them at the employee party for the opening of the Gibson Lounge and the other 2 were given to some friends of the CEO, Henry Juszkiewicz.

Did the guitars in question look like this:

http://www.johnnyhickman.com/Guitars/flag.htm

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

[HeavnerGuitarWorks]

Did the guitars in question look like this:

http://www.johnnyhickman.com/Guitars/flag.htm

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

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Nope!

It's not a wavy flag. Just a straight stiped flag that is actually pretty ugly. The Nashville plant released the actual limited version. I don't know why, but the Memphis and Nashville plants were in major competition with each other and Nashville always won... of course. When Nashville had an idea we would try our hardest to out do it... never happened. The Nashville plant hated the Memphis plant cause we took a ton of production from them which meant less work (less money) for them. We had to do some of our training there for the more specialized positions and it was like being in a prison yard.... the Nashville clique over here... the Memphis clique over there... just waiting for someone to cross the line so they could shank them with a rusted nut file. Pretty tense times.