ZoSo_Spencer Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Hi guys... ive been going through alot of different ideas for the guitar i am building in my workshop class, which is coming along quite great right now... one of my ideas was to have a headstock with 6 tuners - 2 of which would be installed the usual way with the button coming out the side and 4 of which would be installed like a classical guitar and mounted on the side of the headstock. However i really want to make something crazy and i love 12 strings so i had this idea that i would have 6 string through holes drilled on an angle of maybe 45 degrees in the headstock in a semi circle around the truss rod cover. Picture below... Pictures WOULD this work without weakening the headstock....?????????????????? I also have a crazy idea on how to mount the tuners in the middle of the body which i know will work so i wont say.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 WOULD this work without weakening the headstock....?????????????????? You could easily reinforce the headstock with a plate like Gibson does--do it on both sides if you like. Can't see why it wouldn't work...you're going to have to try now, you know that, don't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 I'd probably move it up just a touch, and seriously consider using a body-end adjusting truss rod. And you are going to have a volute and a scarf joint there, right? Because, as it stands, a head-access truss rod neck has a weak spot just where you're planning on drilling holes. Probably inconsequential little holes, but still, not the greatest of places. You'll want a plat for the ball ends to bear on as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoSo_Spencer Posted February 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 (edited) reinforce the headstock with a plate like Gibson does--do it on both sides if you like. ?? never heard or seen that before... any pics? well atleast you think it can be done so i will definitally be trying it as the wood is in no short supply. ill hopefully have some good pics of my progress in the next week and i will make a topic in the progress section... **some specs** body - pine (LOL) but theres nothing wrong with pine... i dont mind if it sounds like a cheap squier or something - dyed blue then black.. top - birdseye veneer - dyed blue then diluted black hopefully to make the grain quite visible. neck - meranti (fijian mahogany) headstock will have a decent size volute aswell... also a cocobolo laminate which will go into the headstock. zemaitis/ heritage - les paul body shape havent decided on the freatboard yet.. recessed gotoh tom bridge charvel style. 3 single coils with ebony pickup rings with a mop laminate down the centre... wood cavity covers - maybe cocobolo or whatever i can get my hands on that looks good. Edited February 8, 2006 by ZoSo_Spencer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoSo_Spencer Posted February 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 I'd probably move it up just a touch, and seriously consider using a body-end adjusting truss rod. And you are going to have a volute and a scarf joint there, right? Because, as it stands, a head-access truss rod neck has a weak spot just where you're planning on drilling holes. Probably inconsequential little holes, but still, not the greatest of places. You'll want a plat for the ball ends to bear on as well. im a retard when it comes to trussrods as i havent read many things about them... but ive got a dual action and a jap box style.. which one do you think would be best for a body end adjusting rod?? i know how to mount the jap box style but how do you secure the dual action? as there is no anchors on them and nowhere to silicone it to the neck. and do you need a fillet for a dual action?? actually making it a body end ajusting truss rod would kind of suite the guitar i want to make anyways so thats a plus Yes it will have a volute and scarf.. So how would you go about making a plate for the ball ends to sit on?? when you say plate i am thinking just a slab of 3 or 4 mm thick steel shaped kind of like a single coil pup inlayed into the back of the neck then screwed in for security... how about that?? i was just thinking about using ferrules but maybe i cant??... not sure right now.. Yeah i can move the holes up a bit not a problem.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 reinforce the headstock with a plate like Gibson does--do it on both sides if you like. ?? never heard or seen that before... any pics? Actually, I think it's called a headstock overlay. I thought a lot of Gibsons use them? The Washburn neck I used for my 350 has one too, looks like ebony, but I'm not actually sure what it is...it's very black, and pretty thick (about 2 or 3 mm). Seems to me making a sandwich of the headstock would give you all the strength you need --I read that you can use carbon fiber rods to strength the headstock/neck join too. Especially since your design makes a perforated circle around the truss rod, I think you'd really want to reinforce that area. And take Mattia's advice about the switching the truss the other way. You can also consider rearranging the extra set of string holes --maybe run them in straight lines up the headstock instead? Seems to me that it wouldn't be too difficult to build a prototype to see if it'd work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoSo_Spencer Posted February 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 ahh headstock overlay... yeah i know what your talking about.. hmm i may consider that as it looks insane when its done nicely i will do the body end truss rod... that shouldnt be a problem with my design and it will let me make a nice cover for it.. I might just put the string through holes next to each tuner if putting them in a semi circle is going to create problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Dual action rods generally just 'float' in a slot. No gluing, no fillets, just a slot that's the right size. A dab of sealant can help hold them in place (see the instructions for isntalling StewMac's hotrod on their website under the free info section, they apply to pretty much any dual action rod). You could use ebony as a rear headstock veneer, but the ball ends would somewhat chew through it after a while. A small inset piece of brass or steel, with holes drilled through it that'll let the string pass, but not the ball, should prevent any serious wear. Re: Meranti, make sure your piece is solid enough for the job. I won't go near the stuff when African Mahoganies (which, unlike 'fijian' or 'phillipine' mahogany are acutally related to the true mahoganies, same family) are so cheap because I've heard too many horror stories (broken necks, splintery), although some meranti (it's a collective name for many, many woods) is probably fine to build with. Lamination and scarfing should take care of most of the issues, hopefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoSo_Spencer Posted February 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 wow didnt know some meranti was that bad.. i was only really told that it would sound like crap... the piece i have came from a saw mill that "supplies fender" (dunno if that is true or not just what i was told) and it was already in the rough shape of a acoustic neck blank and anyways im pretty sure it should hold up with a laminate.. thanks for the info on the dual actions.. i generally assumed that it was something along the lines of that. anyways ill do the metal reinforcement plates, however i may not inlay them into the back of the headstock as there is alot of possibility for error there, considering i have never inlayed something before. im not really worried about how that will look considering its on the back of the headstock anyways. Would you recommend carbon rods for support since it is going to be a 12 string?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 wow didnt know some meranti was that bad.. i was only really told that it would sound like crap... the piece i have came from a saw mill that "supplies fender" (dunno if that is true or not just what i was told) and it was already in the rough shape of a acoustic neck blank and anyways im pretty sure it should hold up with a laminate.. thanks for the info on the dual actions.. i generally assumed that it was something along the lines of that. anyways ill do the metal reinforcement plates, however i may not inlay them into the back of the headstock as there is alot of possibility for error there, considering i have never inlayed something before. im not really worried about how that will look considering its on the back of the headstock anyways. Would you recommend carbon rods for support since it is going to be a 12 string?? For the record: I've only ever heard of low-end guitars (generally asian made) having Meranti necks, and many reports of snapped headstocks due to wood failure rather than inherent weak design. Inlaying 3mm thick is simple if you've got a router base/dremel, easily done. I always reccomend CF rods. I use a pair, 1/8" x 3/8" on edge (so tall and thin) in all my necks. Works a charm, although a dual action rod is a good idea in case your neck ends up 'too stiff' for the strings to pull the required amount of relief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoSo_Spencer Posted February 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 i may just use this meranti i have for a test neck for this design.. then maybe buy a png rosewood neck as i can get it for rediculiously cheap and it looks great. now the only thing left to do is to make it hopefully i will have some pics around in 2 weeks time.. thanks for the help mattia and mg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Just to encourage you a little bit more. A few years ago I helped a local bass player convert a no-name 4-string P-bass to a 8-string using your suggested method. We didn’t need to reinforce the head at all, and it worked fine. It’s not the worlds finest job, but it was fun and actually works better tan I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Well, here's what I've been thinking...the neck wood I'd like to use won't be thick enough to get a really deep angle (the wood is 35mm thick, so my calculations with Autocad give me an angle of about 6 degrees max). Instead of using string trees though, I started wondering if I could use this kind of open headstock design --the holes in the tuners (locking tuners, of course) will be lower, since they'll be inside the slots of the headstock, so that should give me all the tension I need to keep the strings in the slots. So what other issues are there with drilling and routing a headstock this way? It'd make a distinctive looking headstock too, that's a plus. I have the option of flipping the wood and gluing two or even three pieces together to give me the thickness, but even if I do that, I might still go with this open design... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 In place of a plate with holes for the ball-ends, you can use the ball-ends themselves (clipped from old strings) inlaid into the back of the headstock. It requires less room than Tele-like ferrules and you don't have to rout a recess for a metal plate. I second the recommendation for an ebony lamination for the back of the headstock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoSo_Spencer Posted February 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 (edited) hmmm... all these ideas..... soooo good... ive gotta go back to boarding school for the rest of the week so ill have lots of time to think about it... then ill decide on the weekend and hopefully get started with something next week when im back at school. im seriously considering lamination on the back of the headstock as i have the wood for that sitting infront of me.... soo the ball end idea sounds pretty good might see what it looks like first... thx Swedish, i didnt really think many people have actually tried this idea... atleast its good to know that it will hold up on a bass.. - wont be able to post for a few days.. cya's later... Edited February 8, 2006 by ZoSo_Spencer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tirapop Posted February 9, 2006 Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 I suggest you spread the holes out so they aren't in anything like a line across the headstock. Maybe a "V", so there are no more than one or two holes inline across the headstock. The way they are in your picture reminds me of perforations in cardboard... that make it easier to tear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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