Mattia Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Wow, mattia - 13s on your acoustics? Ouch. I'm rambling a bit off-topic here... My son and I made an interesting discovery of sorts... We used to put 12s on his acoustic, thinking medium-lights would have better tone and sustain than the lights. Then one day we were out of town, and the local music store was out of 12s in the brand we like, so we bought some 11s. What we found was (we think) that the extra tension of the heavier strings was choking the top (case in point - it always rang better when he tuned down a half-step). The 11s ring out much nicer and sustain for days, plus they are a bit easier on the fingers. It's the opposite on my electric - heavy strings sound much better. Yep, 13s. True mediums. They're not the best option for all guitars, as you find out, but on most production insturments, 12s or 13s sound fuller, drive the guitar harder than extra lights. But some guitars sound better with 11s. Matter of trying a few different things out, and seeing which ones work best with a specific insturment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 .... The fact that with the tune o matic you can get your innotation bang on and that your innotation is slightly off with the wraparound makes a difference too. The tune o matic sounds a little sterile and for some reason having the innotation slightly off with the wraparound gives the guitar more character, it sounds fuller. ... And if anyone in intrested I recieved Dan's answer. On a guitar with a true 24.750" scale, place the treble post 24.811" (+/- .030") from the nut and place your bass post 1/16" - 1/8" further back. Seriously, could you please explain to me why having a bridge thats intonation is slightly off gives your guitar more character, and makes it sound fuller? Not to be critical, but if you'd have went to the Fret Calculator link I gave in my first post and entered the numbers you'd have found the answer to your bridge placement yourself. Only thing worse is breaking a string while you're on stage and playing your guitar with the floating trem... I did that with my strat...couldn't believe it! I'd never had a strat before, so I didn't know what breaking a string means --on my other guitars, I break a string, the other strings stay reasonably in tune. Well, after that one I blocked the trem and replaced the saddles with string savers. Although blocking the trem doesn't really help, breaking a string still knocks the whole guitar out of tune. Thanks, Leo! Mick, how did you block the trem? If it's done correctly you won't go out of tune when you break a string. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Mick, how did you block the trem? If it's done correctly you won't go out of tune when you break a string. If the neck's stiff enough, yes. If it's one of those noodly type necks, breaking a string might be enough to slightly mess up the tuning for the entire instrument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Mick, how did you block the trem? If it's done correctly you won't go out of tune when you break a string. If the neck's stiff enough, yes. If it's one of those noodly type necks, breaking a string might be enough to slightly mess up the tuning for the entire instrument. True, but every Strat I've ever blocked up, never went out of tune when a string broke. I can see how if your neck isn't very stable it would affect it more though, but it's usually the little E string that breaks, so it would show less effect than if a bigger string broke. I guess it depends on a lot of factors, or I've just been lucky with blocking all those trems for people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 It's blocked with a piece of wood (shaped to fit), with all five springs on there so the bridge is flush with the body. It's an MIJ strat, so I don't know if that qualifies for 'noodle neck' or not. Truth to tell I don't remember if I had it blocked the last time I broke a string, and since I put the string savers on there, I haven't had any string breaks. Though I don't play the guitar anymore, I prefer my Rocket... Put the wraparound on that this morning, there's a huge difference in tone (but part of that comes from string savers I had on the Badass, which really rob a lot of the highs). Haven't broken a string yet, but I've only put 4 hours in so far today ...and that's on the old strings, I put them back on, since I want to redo the wiring this weekend. The intonation is pretty good too, although I won't know for sure until I put a new set of strings on. Now, I'm still wondering about the 50s wraparound/tailpiece question -- it really looks to me like all Gibson did was take a stop tailpiece, drill adjustment screws in it and use that as their original wraparound... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exhaust_49 Posted March 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 .... The fact that with the tune o matic you can get your innotation bang on and that your innotation is slightly off with the wraparound makes a difference too. The tune o matic sounds a little sterile and for some reason having the innotation slightly off with the wraparound gives the guitar more character, it sounds fuller. ... And if anyone in intrested I recieved Dan's answer. On a guitar with a true 24.750" scale, place the treble post 24.811" (+/- .030") from the nut and place your bass post 1/16" - 1/8" further back. Seriously, could you please explain to me why having a bridge thats intonation is slightly off gives your guitar more character, and makes it sound fuller? Not to be critical, but if you'd have went to the Fret Calculator link I gave in my first post and entered the numbers you'd have found the answer to your bridge placement yourself. Only thing worse is breaking a string while you're on stage and playing your guitar with the floating trem... I did that with my strat...couldn't believe it! I'd never had a strat before, so I didn't know what breaking a string means --on my other guitars, I break a string, the other strings stay reasonably in tune. Well, after that one I blocked the trem and replaced the saddles with string savers. Although blocking the trem doesn't really help, breaking a string still knocks the whole guitar out of tune. Thanks, Leo! Mick, how did you block the trem? If it's done correctly you won't go out of tune when you break a string. Having the innotation bang on perfect can make a guitar sound sterile compared to a wraparound, not quite sure why though. It could be that the tune o matic just makes the tone of the guitar more metalic sounding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikhailgtrski Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 I've heard of double-tracking guitars with one very slightly out of tune to get a natural chorus effect, but that only works with two guitars. You've got to be hearing something other than the bad intonation, otherwise all the pros would be putting their intonation out on purpose to get that "character". Being in tune is a wonderful thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javacody Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 exhaust_49, I don't think its the intonation. If you are talking a real vintage wrap-around, they are made out of aluminum, have a unique break angle from the bridge, and have a different body attachment mechanism than the TOM. I think this accounts for what you are hearing. I agree though, there is something magical about one of those bridges and p90's in a vintage LP Jr or Special (or Goldtop too!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 Well, I immediately thought of Johnny Thunders...being out of tune was part of his sound. But if it were just a matter of having one string slightly out of intonation, that's easy enough to achieve with adjustable saddles. I imagine you might be able to introduce a bit of tension in the sound, by having things slightly off. I like to play with synthesizers, and having two oscillators exactly tuned to each other is boring. The fun begins when one is slightly detuned.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 I've heard of double-tracking guitars with one very slightly out of tune to get a natural chorus effect, but that only works with two guitars. You've got to be hearing something other than the bad intonation, otherwise all the pros would be putting their intonation out on purpose to get that "character". Being in tune is a wonderful thing. Are you sure that all the pros don't setup their guitars to play out of tune? From what we are hearing here, it seems to be a good thing for tone, and character. exhaust_49, I don't think its the intonation. If you are talking a real vintage wrap-around, they are made out of aluminum, have a unique break angle from the bridge, and have a different body attachment mechanism than the TOM. I think this accounts for what you are hearing. I agree though, there is something magical about one of those bridges and p90's in a vintage LP Jr or Special (or Goldtop too!). I think your making a lot of sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 I imagine you might be able to introduce a bit of tension in the sound, by having things slightly off. I like to play with synthesizers, and having two oscillators exactly tuned to each other is boring. The fun begins when one is slightly detuned.... Well, since guitars are kind of 'out of tune' with themselves anyway, by design, you don't need to try all that hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 I imagine you might be able to introduce a bit of tension in the sound, by having things slightly off. I like to play with synthesizers, and having two oscillators exactly tuned to each other is boring. The fun begins when one is slightly detuned.... Well, since guitars are kind of 'out of tune' with themselves anyway, by design, you don't need to try all that hard. Specially when it's me who's playing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exhaust_49 Posted March 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 I had some extra time on my hands today so I tried to innotate my strat like a stoptail. Low and high E's bang on and using a ruler to line the two e's up, set the rest of the saddles to the ruler. Sure you can here the strings being out of tune a bit (its liveable) but overall I like it a lot better than setting my innotation perfectly. I think Im gonna flatten the two e's a bit though so the difference in tuning is not so evident. Now I'm set for sure on the wraptail! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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