Stradivarius Tone

[Houdini]

If anyone is interested, there is a program on the history channel today and later tonight (2 Apr 06) that is called the "Ice Age." What does this have to do with instrumets? Well, there is a segment about halfway through the program that talks about how the mini ice age that occured a few centuries ago may have led to the unmached quality of sound and tone that is produced by Stradivarius violins. It goes into how the ice age affected the wood that Stradivarius used and talks about growth rings amongst other things. May be of interest to someone. Check your local listings for times of the program. It will probably be repeated several times through out the week, so you may be able to record it and just fast forward to the Stradivarius violin section. This section comes on right after the program talks about the Irish potato famine.

[wardd]

Houdini,

"What is Music" (NOVA circa 89) was another show that dealt with the history of the Strad Violins.

On the show Dr. Joseph Nagyvary used an electron microscope to show that Stradivarius used wood that was cured in the sea.

The wet-cured wood has completely different properties than air-dried.

Very interesting stuff.

Be Cool,

d ward

[Mattia]

Cool? Yes.

Accurate and factually true? Still up for debate.

There are about as many theories as there are people investigating Strads, and a lot of them have been debunked.

I'm liable to think Strad used wood that was local to him, of good quality, not necessarily all that old, possibly pickled to dry it (a fairly common process), simply built great instruments because he was good, and age did the rest to the wood.

Thousands of pages have been written on these instruments, and they've acquired a mythology that's all their own.

[Houdini]

Wet curing wood sounds interesting. I have never heard of that, I guess they use salt water to dry out the wood???, kind of like using a brine solution to cure meat. I don't know too much about violins, all I know is that you cant beat a good sounding Stradivarius, or down here in Oklahoma a great sounding fiddle!

[Lord-of-the-strings]

What was so unique about strad tone? Can anyone describe it?

[wardd]

In the video Dr. Nagyvary explained that with the wet-cured wood the pores stayed closed while with air dried wood they remained open.

(Or, the other way around, I can't remember and can't put my fingers on the video at the moment.)

He also demonstrated how the wet cured wood was denser than air dried. He dropped a piece of air-dried spruce in a tank of water where it floated and a piece that was wet-cured that sank like a stone.

This thread has recindled my interest in the subject and I've since found some stuff on the net where Nagyvary is also talking about the effects of the chemicals they used to cure the wood and protect against insects etc.. (He is a professor of chemisty at Texas A&M)

Nagyvary has publish a dozen or so academic papers on this subject that might be interesting reading for anyone out there who wants to learn more about his theorys.

Be Cool,

d ward

[Mattia]

See, Navgary's academic qualifiactions, in this case, have little to no bearing on whether his findings are true and/or accurate. I'm still deeply skeptical about the lot, as are many people who've got degrees in forestry and wood science and the like.

Most of it still reads like conjecture, smoke and mirrors. I honestly can't say I'm inclined to bother to read the source materials, though, because it seems like yet another quest for mythical tonewood treatment facilities, and I'd rather concentrate on solid construction, and basic good wood selection.

[javacody]

I've actually corresponded with Nagyvary on this very topic. He was not a "chatty" guy, but he responded to several emails.

I've read a lot of what he's published. I suspect that the strad instruments (and also the other cremonese luthiers who were Stradivari's peers, as these are noted for being extremely toneful instruments as well) benefited from a unique fluke of a series of events that have never before and will never again occur. His artistry as a luthier should be considered first and foremost, but to say that no other luthier that has come after him could have duplicated or surpassed his skill is ludicrous. What about the crop of Cremonese luthiers taught by Stradivari, Amatti, etc. etc? Shouldn't their violins have similar or better properties?

No, there was something else at work. Several theories abound:

* Wood stewed in various substances (urine is one mentioned substance along with some kind of fruit, can't remember)

* wood that was shipped via river (floated down the river) from the alps and soaked in lakes/canals for years before it was used may have leached out sap and impurities and left the pores larger and hollower

* The ground that the cremonese luthiers used may have had "salt of gems" (powdered semi-precious and precious gems) put in it, it may also have been partially made of glair, potassium silicate (sp?), and may have included boric acid (actually, a few modern luthiers swear by several of these theories) - the ground is important, because it is the only part of the original finish that is still present in any large amount. (think of it as a modern day pore filler, etc)

Actually, Nagyvary has supposedly recreated Stradivari's ground and also uses wood recovered from the great lakes that has been underwater for at least 75 years. It is very old growth wood.

I'm sure its a combination of several factors at play. This stuff is fun to experiment with. I've read just about everything there is to read about it on the internet. I've actually made my own glair (whipped egg whites, gum arabic, and honey or sugar) but added bentonite clay and tea (for coloring) and used this as a ground on a maple strat neck. The final finish was 8 coats of pure, raw Tung oil (Behlen's). It looks very nice and is highly resonant. It cured in the sun for over a week.

Obviously not a time tested finish for electric guitars. I'm not advocating it, just sharing the result of an experiment. I know that I will be ridiculed by the majority for being "wierd" but it floats my boat and helps me find my lost remote, so everything's going to be all right.

Yeah, yeah, this is up there with food coloring as a dye, lets not go there, ok?

To add to the "Cliff Clavin-ness" of this quote, did you know that Stradivari made more than just violins? He also made Violas, Cellos, Basses, Guitars, etc. etc.

[Hoser Rob]

It's really problematic trying to accurately measure the vibration modes on a violin. Much harder than with guitar.

A guitar's sound comes mostly from the top ... any real luthier will tell you that acoustic guitar tone comes 80 to 90% from the top, the backs and sides just color the tone. There are laser interferometry measurements on the web somewhere that show this clearly. Don't remember exactly where but www.mimf.com has a link I think. Anyone who wants to build needs to know about their site anyway.

However a violin produces sound all over, which is a big reason they're so damn loud. It's extremely difficult to accurately measure the vibration properties of something which radiates over 360 degrees.

While there are a lot of theories, and I think an expert on wood is just as qualified as a luthier in this case, that's the real problem.

[azz230]

All this sounds incredibly interesting

how would one go about Wet curing wood???

Edited April 10, 2006 by azz230