Guitar In Progres P90 Les Paul Jr Type

[thirdstone]

The new burst looks really nice, and you're in good company with the whole 'back-to-wood'n'start-over' technique, I shudder to think how many times I removed and resprayed my last sunburst!

For two scratches? Couldn't do it myself...but then, there's nothing I admire more than a well-played, nicely scratched and scuffed guitar...

When I was in London a few weeks ago, I went into a store with an amazing collections of vintage guitars --including a 50s era LP Jr, of course. After that, I went into a store with new guitars...all those shiny, flawless guitars...left me cold.

Thats the irony isn't it. The guitars I covert the most are well worn vintage guitars and here I am worrying about a couple of scratches I don't get it either but there is something about damage from the heat of battle and scratches from poor workmanship. As much as I like the relic idea,Its a bit false , too much like ovedone brest implants....but I digress..

Edited May 21, 2006 by thirdstone

[Mickguard]

Thats the irony isn't it. The guitars I covert the most are well worn vintage guitars and here I am worrying about a couple of scratches I don't get it either but there is something about damage from the heat of battle and scratches from poor workmanship. As much as I like the relic idea,Its a bit false , too much like ovedone brest implants....but I digress..

To each man his obsession... I don't mind a few scratches, but certain details I can't handle -like if my tuner holes aren't nicely lined up.

Anyway, the new finish is looking great, so you were probably right to go for it.

[Mattia]

Thats the irony isn't it. The guitars I covert the most are well worn vintage guitars and here I am worrying about a couple of scratches I don't get it either but there is something about damage from the heat of battle and scratches from poor workmanship. As much as I like the relic idea,Its a bit false , too much like ovedone brest implants....but I digress..

To each man his obsession... I don't mind a few scratches, but certain details I can't handle -like if my tuner holes aren't nicely lined up.

Anyway, the new finish is looking great, so you were probably right to go for it.

See, there's a big difference between scratches on a finish surface (I never toch up instruments), and scratches beneath. One is because of wear, the other is just a mistake. I usually spit-coat instruments with shellac before spraying and go over everything three times, in good light, just to prevent this kind of thing.

Oh, and word of warning: scratches are even worse with oil finishes. Gotta go really, really fine to get the look right (I sand stuff to be oiled to 1200 grit/0000 steel wool, generally).

[thirdstone]

Well i am back to where I was after a few days detour..

This with one oil coat. I used my spray gun for the sealing coat which went realy well.I used a feast and watson product called proof seal diluted 50 % with metho.It drys in 10 min so I was able to put on 3 very thin coats and it has done a good job of isolating the stain.

Mattia please tell me more about the schellac coat. like how do you apply it and what to do after.Is it normal or white schellac ie clear. .thanks.

Kev

[Mattia]

Well i am back to where I was after a few days detour..

This with one oil coat. I used my spray gun for the sealing coat which went realy well.I used a feast and watson product called proof seal diluted 50 % with metho.It drys in 10 min so I was able to put on 3 very thin coats and it has done a good job of isolating the stain.

Mattia please tell me more about the schellac coat. like how do you apply it and what to do after.Is it normal or white schellac ie clear. .thanks.

Kev

I simply wipe about a #2 cut (I think...about 1 parts shellac to 3 parts alcohol by eyeball volume; gonna do proper french polish soon and pay more attention) with...a paper towel. I use dewaxed blonde, mixed from flakes, but Zinnser Seal Coat should do the trick as well. Wiping might lead to blurring if you do colours, but shellac should be spray-able without too much hassle (just clean out the gun well afterwards...it's sticky stuff). Shellac's cheap, non-toxic (the solvent is, but not too bad), so I like it. Most of my instruments aren't stained, or are a combination of stain and tinted lacquer, so a fair amount of experience with direct staining is scrap pieces/tests.

That's looking very, very nice. Loving it.

[Dan Salter]

The new burst looks really nice, and you're in good company with the whole 'back-to-wood'n'start-over' technique, I shudder to think how many times I removed and resprayed my last sunburst!

For two scratches? Couldn't do it myself...but then, there's nothing I admire more than a well-played, nicely scratched and scuffed guitar...

When I was in London a few weeks ago, I went into a store with an amazing collections of vintage guitars --including a 50s era LP Jr, of course. After that, I went into a store with new guitars...all those shiny, flawless guitars...left me cold.

I know the feeling...Im building new guitars to fund my obsession for scratched and battered vintage machines ! ;-)

Was the shop in london in denmark street? sounds like "vintage and rare" or "Andys guitars" both amazing places.

Correct. The Gibson 'long tenon' is simply longer than the existing one, and appreciably better fitted, not any wider. On the MIMF John Catto speculated that the reason the long tenon is so revered has much more to do with the fact it was well fitted, and very little to do with the extra inch of length.

The neck joint above is like the LP junior neck joint.

I wish I could find the comparisson shot of the long and short tenons - it dissapeared from the net after Gibson realised it was putting people off by revealing how *appaulingly* the tenons on their guitars fitted!

Edit - Aha, Archive.org saves the day.

Here's the shot:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020725041908/...r/tenonhalf.jpg

You can see how poorly the modern joint is fitted - hell, the long tenon has more gaps than I'd be comfortable with!

Oh my god thats shockingly bad and to think how many of these i have owned...im tempted to bandsaw them all in half so i can see but im not that daft or rich ha ha

Well i am back to where I was after a few days detour..

This with one oil coat. I used my spray gun for the sealing coat which went realy well.I used a feast and watson product called proof seal diluted 50 % with metho.It drys in 10 min so I was able to put on 3 very thin coats and it has done a good job of isolating the stain.

Mattia please tell me more about the schellac coat. like how do you apply it and what to do after.Is it normal or white schellac ie clear. .thanks.

Kev

I simply wipe about a #2 cut (I think...about 1 parts shellac to 3 parts alcohol by eyeball volume; gonna do proper french polish soon and pay more attention) with...a paper towel. I use dewaxed blonde, mixed from flakes, but Zinnser Seal Coat should do the trick as well. Wiping might lead to blurring if you do colours, but shellac should be spray-able without too much hassle (just clean out the gun well afterwards...it's sticky stuff). Shellac's cheap, non-toxic (the solvent is, but not too bad), so I like it. Most of my instruments aren't stained, or are a combination of stain and tinted lacquer, so a fair amount of experience with direct staining is scrap pieces/tests.

That's looking very, very nice. Loving it.

I loved it before...i want to marry it now ! looking great man...im following this thread for sure love it ;-)

[mikhailgtrski]

I use dewaxed blonde, mixed from flakes, but Zinnser Seal Coat should do the trick as well. Wiping might lead to blurring if you do colours, but shellac should be spray-able without too much hassle (just clean out the gun well afterwards...it's sticky stuff).

A word of caution - if any of your stain is alcohol-soluble, you have to be very careful spraying/wiping on shellac. The alcohol in the shellac tends to re-dissolve the stain, possibly ruining your perfect dye job.

Mike

[Mickguard]

Was the shop in london in denmark street? sounds like "vintage and rare" or "Andys guitars" both amazing places.

It was on that street with all the other guitar shops...the one I'm talking about has a couch in the front, and a fireplace...and a couple dozen Gibsons...and the LP Jr. hanging in a place of honor above the counter...

Can anyone point me to a thread detailing the oil finish process from start to finish?

[thirdstone]

I don't know of one but for what its worth;

1. sand down through the grades to about 320

2.sand with oil ( danish or a tung oil are the most common) with 320 o 380 , a slurry will form and this is real good for filling the grain so when you have finished sanding wipe the slurry across the grain to fill it.

3. leave to dry overnight

you could repeat steps 2 and 3 it depends on how well the grain filling went.

4. sand with 400 ( no oil this time)and down to what you want the final finish to be

5. Heat oil to warm in the microwave or in a double boiler. Oil the wood again and let soak in for 10-15 min.

If you leave the oil on too long it gets tacky. If this happens just wipe oil on to it and it will clean it up.

6. wipe off the oil so its dry and leave overnight.

7.sand with a dry bit of 1000 wet and dry lightly and apply the oil again.

8. Leave overnight.

after a week you can polish.

Thats it, works for me.

My observations are that its not a great finish for oil stained timbers as i found that the stain does pull out a little bit,be careful and wipe on lightly. A water stain I would emagine would be ok.

As far as duribility ,Its not as good as nitro or acrilic lacquer but its very easy to do repairs on.

For necks its the only way to go, can't go back to lacquer .

Any rag used for the oil must be soaked with water so it don't combust during the night.

[Mickguard]

Excellent, thanks. Didn't know about the sanding with oil idea, I'll give it a try.

I've read that some people put on a couple of coats of carnuba wax afterwards, to build up the shine presumably?

Seems to me that oil is a much more civilized means of finishing a guitar -- I've been influenced by Zacchary guitars on this, but the whole idea of wrapping a guitar in plastic just makes no sense at all to me now. Sure, it's easier and less expensive for the guitar manufacturers to spray the other stuff.

[thirdstone]

Excellent, thanks. Didn't know about the sanding with oil idea, I'll give it a try.

I've read that some people put on a couple of coats of carnuba wax afterwards, to build up the shine presumably?

Seems to me that oil is a much more civilized means of finishing a guitar -- I've been influenced by Zacchary guitars on this, but the whole idea of wrapping a guitar in plastic just makes no sense at all to me now. Sure, it's easier and less expensive for the guitar manufacturers to spray the other stuff.

Yeah the wax is to give it a bit of a shine. On mine I ended up sealing the finish with an oil based sealer and then i have put on some tung oil based burnishing oil. Its got some wax in it. I haven't finished applying it yet but I'll let you know how it goes.

as for the spray on lacquer I think that if its done with a thin coat its okay .I think the the companys use that method as its the quickist way to get a deep wet look and it does protect the guitar better from the enviroment and the best thing from the manufacturers point of view is that it dosn't need any upkeep.

The problem with it though is that alot of companys have realised that its a great way to cover up poor wood or multi laminates and other mistakes so they smother the guitar in it and destroy any resonant tone.

That is scratches and is difficult to touch up is not their worry.

But tone wise thin coats are okay on the body. I think Ive said it before, no lacquer on the neck thanks.

All my guitars have oiled necks now , when I play a lacquered or worse painted neck I can't beleive the disconnect from the feel of real wood.

Oil finish is so easy cheep and mistake friendly that its the best method by far for hobbyist/plonker like myself.

I have done nitro and acyrilic finishes but without a spray booth they can quickly become a nightmare with zero room for error.

My last nitro job nearly drve me nuts. I think I did it about 4 times.Thats the translucent black guitar in my avitar.

Edited May 23, 2006 by thirdstone

[Mattia]

Civilized? Meh. Maybe. Some designs look better in gloss, some look better oiled and waxed. One's more protective, and more durable, and I don't think either has any real effect on tone; show me someone who can tell, in a double-blind test, what kind of finish is on a guitar. Doubly so assuming it's applied properly (comparing a thick, cheap poly finish is irrelevant; we're talking the merits of properly applied finishes, not commonly applied finishes). In fact, acoustically speaking, I'd go with a hard film finish over oil (which soaks into the grain quite a bit) any day, and that's why I'll never oil an acoustic guitar top (where finish does matter/affect sound). Maybe a tru-oil type finish over shellac sealed stuff, but otherwise, some type of lacquer-ish finish, ta.

For necks, I just don't like the feel of lacquer finishes, so it's either oil or shellac for me; both feel great in their own way.

[Dan Salter]

Was the shop in london in denmark street? sounds like "vintage and rare" or "Andys guitars" both amazing places.

It was on that street with all the other guitar shops...the one I'm talking about has a couch in the front, and a fireplace...and a couple dozen Gibsons...and the LP Jr. hanging in a place of honor above the counter...

Can anyone point me to a thread detailing the oil finish process from start to finish?

Yes that is DENMARK STREET otherwise known in musician circles as "Tin pan Alley"...most stars shop in the street for vintage gear,.

The shop you mention is my favourite, called Vintage and Rare, its a beautiful shop with leather sofas crammed with vintage fenders and gibsons, it was open by two young lads as far as i remember and has a wall smothered in signatures of all the a list stars/guitarists who have been there.....bastards...i so want that shop !

http://www.vintageandrareguitars.com/index...t_us&open_nav=0

as for the oiling.....id like to say i didnt do any sanding with oil etc....it was just all sanded super smooth then oiled, wiped off, oiled again in morning and that was it...just danish , no wax etc...although it was a 5 day course so maybe the oiling part can be done more detailed....wenge is a pretty open grain and could benefit the grain filling idea so thanks for whomever posted the oiling instructions for my future use.

[Mickguard]

http://www.vintageandrareguitars.com/index...t_us&open_nav=0

Yep, that's the place...be fun to live there!

[thirdstone]

I have been busy behind the sceens with the cavity covers finished and the final oil coats put on the body.

Now for joining the two bits of wood to create a guitar.

First i have a little ritual to perform. At this point I like to put some soul into the guitar.

this is done by adding a bit of DNA.

Not for the squeamish..

Ouch

After that little bit of pain it is time to make a guitar.

Next is to fit the bridge..

Edited May 29, 2006 by thirdstone

[Mickguard]

Ouch

Oh yes! I did that on my last guitar too. Of course, in my case, it was an accident, cut myself and ended up dripping blood in there.

Don't know if it helped the tone at all though.

[brian d]

Can anyone point me to a thread detailing the oil finish process from start to finish?

Hi Mickguard,

FWIW here's how I've been finishing my guitar with Tru-oil...basically what it says on the instructions.

I sanded to 800 grit, but that may be overkill.

I wanted to keep the wood look so I didn't grain fill, but I did fill some worm holes with epoxy.

I wiped the tru-oil on as thin as possible, let dry for 2 hours between coats. 24 hrs before sanding if it's necessary after a few coats. More thin coats (I'm up to about 8 and final now), then I'll wait 24 hrs before final polishing.

You can get a pretty good shine out of tru-oil, and I don't think it soaks in like the other oils (AFAIK).

I'm going to go to high gloss on the body and headstock, but I'll actually want more of a satin feel on the back of the neck, so I'll have to sand it to get rid of the gloss that's there naturally.

I hope to have some photos up in the next week.

Regards,

Brian.

[Mickguard]

Maybe we should start a thread with people's techniques for oil finishes. From my searches, I've found some info, but not nearly enough.

Right now I'm experimenting with pore fillers...so far what works best to pop the grain seems to be a couple of layers of pore filler, steel wooled back, then a couple coats of stain (to get it to the depth I want), then another layer of filler just to seel that, and now oil.

I'm going to try using epoxy as a filler too.

[Mattia]

With oil, there's the 'slurry method'; wet-sand (where 'wet' is the oil itself) the wood with 800 grit paper (maybe 600, test), adding oil as it dries. You make a slurry of sawdust and oil, which works itself into the pores. Insta-pore fill.

[Mickguard]

With oil, there's the 'slurry method'; wet-sand (where 'wet' is the oil itself) the wood with 800 grit paper (maybe 600, test), adding oil as it dries. You make a slurry of sawdust and oil, which works itself into the pores. Insta-pore fill.

I read about that, but what about if you're staining the wood? I'm having a hard time getting the depth of color that I want (cherry red). I'm going to try to find a different stain.

[Mattia]

With oil, there's the 'slurry method'; wet-sand (where 'wet' is the oil itself) the wood with 800 grit paper (maybe 600, test), adding oil as it dries. You make a slurry of sawdust and oil, which works itself into the pores. Insta-pore fill.

I read about that, but what about if you're staining the wood? I'm having a hard time getting the depth of color that I want (cherry red). I'm going to try to find a different stain.

Ah. See, I've never bothered trying to stain something I was oiling. Seems a waste to nuke some of the lovely chatoyance you get with oil by staining the crap out of the wood, and doesn't fit with my aesthetic choices. If I want colours, I spray harder finish. You'll probably want to concentrate whatever it is you've got. Sometimes 'lots of diluted layers' just doesn't work all that well.

[thirdstone]

How about trying a water based stain after the grain filling then oil on top, or leave the grain open for that raw wood look I think that would work well.

The bridge is now fitted

Bridge test fit

and the P90's are test fitted, not yet wired up.

Test fit 1

Edited May 30, 2006 by thirdstone

[Mickguard]

Ah. See, I've never bothered trying to stain something I was oiling. Seems a waste to nuke some of the lovely chatoyance you get with oil by staining the crap out of the wood, and doesn't fit with my aesthetic choices. If I want colours, I spray harder finish. You'll probably want to concentrate whatever it is you've got. Sometimes 'lots of diluted layers' just doesn't work all that well.

Yeah, I'm starting to figure out that what I want (cherry red mahogany like) isn't going to be compatible with the oil I have --the oil browns the color too much. It's a dark wood to begin with, that doesn't help.

I did, however, figure out my mistake when staining--just wasn't putting enough on, and wasn't letting it sit long enough. So that part's solved.

Anyway, enough hijacking...

[Dan Salter]

How about trying a water based stain after the grain filling then oil on top, or leave the grain open for that raw wood look I think that would work well.

The bridge is now fitted

Bridge test fit

and the P90's are test fitted, not yet wired up.

Test fit 1

Looking super sexy now my friend !

[thirdstone]

Thanks for the kind comments

Decision time.

Small or large scratch plate????

The bridge pup might have a dog ear cover what do you think.