Mickguard Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 I'm testing out a tung oil over stain finish (actually what I have isn't true tung oil-- it's a blend of tung, linseed and other things...I'm still looking for true tung oil). The stain is red --it looks great too. So far my process is to stain black, sand that way back, then do a couple of coats of stain, which gets a really nice rich color. Then I've been grain filling it --I've tried a couple of different types of pore fillers, which also claim they'll seal the stain. I apply a couple of coats, then let that dry overnight, then steel wool it back, as per the directions on the can. The next morning, it looks great...really nice red, the grain looks great, nice and smooth surface, but it still looks like wood, not something dipped in plastic. Trouble is, when I apply the oil, it seems to wash out the stain --the wood turns brown with just hints of red. Looks nice, but it's not what I'm going for. At one point, I tried spraying from a can of transparent red lacquer to seal things before applying the oil --that actually ended up working the best, but gives more of a plastic-looking surface than I'd like. I've tried using epoxy as a sealer --but I really hate working with that stuff. But what I have is more of gel--maybe I can find a liquid epoxy. Haven't tried CA yet either, because I can't find large quantity bottles here. Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 What kind of dye are you using? If it's spirit based the oil is bounds to 'drag' it and alter the final colour. I'd experiment with waterbased stains, and see if they are less vulnerable to the oil. Also, forget getting pure tung oil - it's a lousy finish. You want a comercial oil finish, which is formulated to dry and not remain clammy or sticky. Finally, forget applying oil over any kind of sealer, it's utterly pointless. Oil is a penetrating finish, and a sealer will 'seal' the wood (!) so that the oil can't penetrate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 Setch is right on the money, I will clarify a few points: You can find Tru-Oil (which is a polymerized oil finish, unlike real Tung Oil) in any hunting store, it is commonly used for gunstocks. WalMart usually has it too. REAL 100% pure Tung Oil is NASTY! Takes forever to dry, and is a very soft finish even when dry, I would never use it on a guitar, ever. Trust me, you don't want that stuff, forget it. And yes, a sealer will prevent any oil finish from soaking in, the oil finish itself will do the sealing for you actually. A sealer is truly nothing more than the first coat of ANY type of finish, it is the coat that seals the pores, and any finish applied will do that. I found Loktite CA glue in Home Depot in 20 oz. bottles, it's the same thing as Hot Stuff yellow (medium viscosity), which is fine for what you need IF you decide to go that route, which I probably wouldn't for your application. I only use the CA for pore filling when I'm -not- staining or enhancing the bare wood in any way, when it is left natural (usually for spalts and the rear/sides of the body, depending on the body wood) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted June 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 What kind of dye are you using? If it's spirit based the oil is bounds to 'drag' it and alter the final colour. I'd experiment with waterbased stains, and see if they are less vulnerable to the oil. Yep, it's an alcohol-based stain--hard to find colors in the water-based stains here, the only thing I can find are 'wood-tone' stains. I believe the pore filler I was using is also alcohol based-- so that probably just doubled the problem. As for the tung-oil, I was hoping to find a commercial finish with a higher percentage of tung oil, but I guess that's not necessary. I know about the problems with pure oil, sure. The largest bottle of CA I could find was 20 ml, I think (or grams, I don't remember how the measured it). But I don't really like the idea of working with that either. Next piece of scrap, coming up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 As I've said elsewhere, the blend you've got? Better than pure tung oil. Pure oils, as finishes, have no place as instrument finishes. IMO. All those 'oil finished' instruments are done using Tru-Oil and the like, which are polymerized oil blends, perhaps more properly varnishes. The oil that's in there is pretty irellevant; Tru-Oil, much loved around here, is mostly linseed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 The largest bottle of CA I could find was 20 ml, I think (or grams, I don't remember how the measured it). Actually, that's quite a workable size. I can't remember the size of the Hot Stuff I buy, but I know it's $10.00 and change, and the 20ml Loktite is $5.00 and change, so it's really about the same price, and a 20ml bottle is a good workable size, it takes very little for coverage really, using a plastic scraper to apply it into the pores, scraping it across the body, it takes far less than you might imagine. I still don't think it's the proper solution for you, just posting this for others reading CA posts with interest of possibly using it for something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted June 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 just posting this for others reading CA posts with interest of possibly using it for something else. That's one of the reasons I don't mind posting as many questions as I do (I must hold the forum record by now ) Anyway, I believe I found my baby: Le Tonkinois This is the stuff I mean when I'm talking about "real" tung oil (even though it's still a tung/linseed blend) --it's all natural, non-toxic, and a non-irritant, it's water, temperature and humidity resistant, and if it's strong enough for a boat on the open sea, then you gotta figure it's going to protect the guitar. Hell, they use this stuff on the decks. I've used it a little bit --it really makes the grain of the wood come alive, much more than the other stuff I was using. I'm just testing it so far, but I may just go for the natural wood color after all, this stuff looks that good. Supposedly it builds up to a nice shine too, which is what I'd like. And I like the idea of rubbing it into the wood by hand --I've read it helps make it come alive and do its job. Of course, this probably still isn't the thing to use on an acoustic --we'll see how it goes for an electric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksound Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 All those 'oil finished' instruments are done using Tru-Oil and the like, which are polymerized oil blends, perhaps more properly varnishes.Le Tonkinois is a natural oil that is based on lineseed oil and tung oil ... Thus, this varnish oil is also very suitable for wooden floors , staircases and other 'land-based' uses. That Mattia's a smart guy. He should be like a doctor or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted June 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 All those 'oil finished' instruments are done using Tru-Oil and the like, which are polymerized oil blends, perhaps more properly varnishes.Le Tonkinois is a natural oil that is based on lineseed oil and tung oil ... Thus, this varnish oil is also very suitable for wooden floors , staircases and other 'land-based' uses. That Mattia's a smart guy. He should be like a doctor or something. You missed the part where this is indeed a polymerized oil blend ---in other words, the oils have been boiled. There's a second version, called "Le Tonkinois 1" --they say they boil it at a higher temperature. The most important part though is I actually found this on a store shelf here--a rare event-- so I don't have to wonder about it. I'm testing it right now. We've discussed this before and I think Mattia's main concern with using any kind of oil finish is for acoustic instruments because of the way the oil creates its own network of fibers within the wood. For an instrument with a soundboard of 4 mm or less, that can be a problem. But for an electric instrument, especially a solid-body, I don't see this as such a big deal --the oil penetrates about 2 mm...that leaves a good 40 mm or so of untouched wood on my current build. And apparently it's possible to use the oil over an existing finish --so if you're concerned about the oil penetrating into the wood, you can always lay down a barrier, like shellac or something (I still haven't been able to find any shellac here...maybe an art store?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksound Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 I don't think I missed anything, I'm just pointing out that Mattia recommends a finish that dries (hardens) like a varnish, which is exactly what you ended up with instead of the "tung oil" you said you wanted. So there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted June 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 I don't think I missed anything, I'm just pointing out that Mattia recommends a finish that dries (hardens) like a varnish, which is exactly what you ended up with instead of the "tung oil" you said you wanted. So there. No, I did end with the tung oil I wanted --I was never looking for the pure oil (I knew that doesn't harden properly), but the polymerized blend. But I wanted the all-natural 'old-time' version, not the crap I originally found. Very cool stuff, this Le Tonkinois...the guy who runs the site is pretty cool too, responded pretty quick to my email. He says I should look around for a natural stain, instead of the stuff I have now...not easy to find, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 Yep, what Marksound said. I really don't think a hardening, film-forming oil-type-finish will harm solidbody sound, but I will not use it on an acoustic unless it's sealed with shellac first, to keep it from soaking into the wood. Plain oils I'll reserve for salad bowls It's about damping, which is the degree to which a materials slows the transmission of sound (I think that's the right definition). Shellac has LOWER damping than most wood, so applying that type of finish may actually have the net effect of lowering the overal damping, and increasing the speed at which sound is transmitted through a material (thin stuff, anyway). Oil does the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted June 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 I think I've figured out where they keep the shellac here --I believe I have to go to an art supply shop...(French retail is weird ...things are heavily segmented). I'm also pretty sure I can get the wood stain I need --in powder form that I mix into water myself. There's a shop online that sells both. The shipping will cost me more than the actual material! The Tonkinois oil supposedly sets up hard enough to protect a boat --like I said, they use it on the decks too --I worked on a boat in Alaska for a while, those decks take a lot of abuse. So if the oil fibres become that hard, why shouldn't they transmit the string vibrations? Or does hardness have nothing to with that? Or is it a question of a different rate of vibration, in which case, you could use the finish to 'dose' the sound? (My curiosity kicking in again...it's a bad habit) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted June 2, 2006 Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 I think I've figured out where they keep the shellac here --I believe I have to go to an art supply shop...(French retail is weird ...things are heavily segmented). I'm also pretty sure I can get the wood stain I need --in powder form that I mix into water myself. There's a shop online that sells both. The shipping will cost me more than the actual material! The Tonkinois oil supposedly sets up hard enough to protect a boat --like I said, they use it on the decks too --I worked on a boat in Alaska for a while, those decks take a lot of abuse. So if the oil fibres become that hard, why shouldn't they transmit the string vibrations? Or does hardness have nothing to with that? Or is it a question of a different rate of vibration, in which case, you could use the finish to 'dose' the sound? (My curiosity kicking in again...it's a bad habit) Boat finishes/varnishes are, generally, quite soft, because they have to stand up to exteme weather conditions. It penetrates somewhat, and provides a flexible surface. Harder finishes would craze. I get my shellac (and could get powdered stains) from an art supply shop and paint store, which isn't that weird when you think about it. As for the setting up: 'hard' is a relative term, and damping is inherent to the material and combinations there of. A number of people have measured the damping effect of various finishes, and oil quite consistently increases damping, and shellac or nitro decrease it. Add mass, but decrease damping. Honestly, wouldn't want to try to dose anything with finish, though. Waaaay too much like picking hairs on an electric... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted June 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 Honestly, wouldn't want to try to dose anything with finish, though. Waaaay too much like picking hairs on an electric... Oh no, I'm talking about acoustics there! I'm of the 'if it has pickups, then plug it into your amp' school... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted June 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 Anyway, I'm loving this Le Tonkinois stuff...it really brings out the grain in the wood well --no need for staining it black first, the oil does a better job at that. This morning I laid some on top of the solvent-based stain I was using at the beginning of this thread--so far, so good, the color is still there. In fact, with the oil on there, it's pretty much exactly the color I was going for. I'm hoping the color won't wash out as the oil dries, we'll see. When I applied it I put on a lot of oil, wet-sanded wth fine sandpaper, let the oil set for a few minutes, then rubbed it in by hand...if all that can't screw up the color, I think I'm good to go. Oh yeah, and the oil tastes excellent with salad too (only kidding!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted June 2, 2006 Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 Sounds good. Might have to try this stuff out (a few local places carry it, including the ones that used to carry Liberon's finishing oil but don't any more). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted June 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 Sounds good. Might have to try this stuff out (a few local places carry it, including the ones that used to carry Liberon's finishing oil but don't any more). Contact the guy at the link I posted--he's in the Netherlands too, I believe he's the exclusive distributor there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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