Neck Compatibility & Scale Length

[ibnaz5150]

hello folks......I'm new to building so bere with me! I have my wood (body blanks) all ready to route. My plan was to use a warmoth neck. I ordered 2 template kits (ibanez Rg, & a strat). I knew going into this that the warmoth heel is rounded . The ibanez neck pocket is square at the heel like a tele. So I figured I'd use the strat template for the neck pocket to compensate the fit. My goal here is to make a ibanez body.I was getting ready to get my router out when it dawned on me.....geeeez the ibanez neck is longer. Now I know ibanez and fender both use the 25 1/2 scale length. So my burning question is...can I use a warmoth neck on my ibanez project??? Something tells me I'd have to move the bridge location...yes??? That would suck since I have a template with everything lined up already. Pease help!

Thanks

Tom

[unclej]

hello folks......I'm new to building so bere with me! I have my wood (body blanks) all ready to route. My plan was to use a warmoth neck. I ordered 2 template kits (ibanez Rg, & a strat). I knew going into this that the warmoth heel is rounded . The ibanez neck pocket is square at the heel like a tele. So I figured I'd use the strat template for the neck pocket to compensate the fit. My goal here is to make a ibanez body.I was getting ready to get my router out when it dawned on me.....geeeez the ibanez neck is longer. Now I know ibanez and fender both use the 25 1/2 scale length. So my burning question is...can I use a warmoth neck on my ibanez project??? Something tells me I'd have to move the bridge location...yes??? That would suck since I have a template with everything lined up already. Pease help!

Thanks

Tom

yep..if you use a different sale length or if the neck pocket is different then you have to move the bridge. but it's really not a big deal. just route your neck pocket and then measure 25 1/2" from the fret side of the nut and that's the scale length. you may be surprised and find that where you have it marked will work.

good luck with your project.

[ibnaz5150]

Thanks for the post.......what throws me a loop is ibanez uses a 24 fret neck. Their fingerboard overhangs the heel roughly a 1/4" inch. Now my plan was to use a warmoth 24 fret extension neck.....think I'd be in trouble there since they're extending the fingerboard only...where it overhangs the heel by a inch!!! May have a quick solution....have ed roman make me one. Definitly not ready for neck work!...tools and lack of experience!

[chunkielad]

I jkust had a go at my first necka nd i've used a router, orbital sander and a rasp/file. Not hard to do at all!

If the fretboard on this is extended then you mayt ust need to move the end of the neck poicket further toward the edge of the guitar. IIRC the ibanez neck is really deep into the body. A standard fender neck will have a pocket 3" long so work from that and 'penicl in' the bridge location then measure out to the nut and see if you still have the 3" pocket you want. I reckon it'll be OK.

[ibnaz5150]

I measured the template necks. I came up with 18-7/16" for the fender and 19-1/2" for the ibanez. That being the case the warmoth neck is out of the equasion...unless I move the bridge an inch toward the bottom of the body. warmoth keeps that 18-7/16 measurement(heel to nut) and only extends the fingerboard to gain the 2 frets.

[chunkielad]

What pocket size is the ibanez? If it's 4" then just do a 3" one for the warmoth hence moving the neck out.

[ibnaz5150]

From the center to the heel it measures 3". Ibanez rg's,jems use a curved or rounded heel joint. It's not squared off like a fender where it measures 3" on each side.it's roughly 2 1/4" on the bass side going to 3" center and down to 1 3/4" on the treble side. no room to play there! musikraft interestingly has some different options ....most likely would suit my needs...however I know they won't do an angled headstock.options are minimal far as finding someone to make a ibanez replacement neck. most in the bizz cater to fender. don't get me wrong I can find them all day on ebay....yet the're used and not the most desirable wood selection like on most stock instruments. I give ya much credit tackling a neck. The fretting frightens me and I do believe requires some costly tools....most essential tool needed would be experience!

[chunkielad]

I get you on the kudos for the neck building but so far it's not been anywhere near as scary as I thought. The whole cost of fretting thing is not an issue as you either get a caul for a drill press if you have one or a brass head hammer and practise on scrap.

Seeing as there is a bit 'extra' on the fret board, could you not work an angled cut at the heel of the fender neck and add a piece in to extend the length. This would give you the overall length needed and only require a little shaping of the neck heel but no fretting. Almoist a scarf joint heel. Where the pink in the image is the new piece.

Or even an L shape where a thickness is taken off the heel and a whole block fitted with a veneer line and a back block to make a pretty effect.

Edited September 6, 2006 by chunkielad

[Drak]

What you have run head-on into is what a guitar is and what a guitar is not, and if you want to learn to build guitars, then welcome, because you are at your first roadblock, or first big learning lesson, as to what exactly makes a guitar anyway, and you need to get thru this hoop with the correct information in hand if you want to move forward with guitar building.

You are at the fundamental point of understanding what makes a guitar 'work' in the first place, and it has nothing to do with neck pockets and number of frets, or how nicely your template was made.

In fact, having the bridge routed out in the template is actually a crutch of sorts, it prevents YOU from having to manually spot the bridge in the first place, which you really need to learn to do, and is not hard.

Having the bridge cut out of the template is actually robbing you of some necessary learning that needs to happen, or you'll never really understand how a guitar actually works and plays in tune.

You need, at this point, to understand:

1. Scale length and how scale length affects placement of the bridge location

2. How to place a bridge location depending on scale length and saddle travel

3. What has to come first, second, then third (order of operations)

4. String Action and it's relation to bridge height and neck pocket depth

That's for starters, and I wouldn't go any further until you study and understand these basic building facts.

[ibnaz5150]

Very interesting chunkielad... Thanks for the post! You got me thinking for sure. 45 degree for the scarf? Not too worried about cosmetics cuz this would be tucked away in the neck pocket.

[ibnaz5150]

Thanks for the post Drak........I've been building them for some years now. Would'nt really call it building since warmoth did all the work. I just focused in finishing and constructing it. It's funny ...I have a great woodworking back ground and I could build ya cabinet,end table etc etc. However this is a whole new realm if you will to what I know. I've read Melvyn Hiscocks book and another by Tom Hirst. Great info yet it's time to dig in and get the experience. I'm not rushing this by any means. I actually picked out the wood in May and managed to get the pieces glued up. The blanks and templates been sitting there since then waitng patiently. I'm sure I'll face some pitfalls,road blocks etc etc but this is how we learn. I applaud this site emmencly for it's support and info . I'm sure to make a contribution soon since I have a feeling I'll be on here a bit once I dig in.

Cheers

Tom

[chunkielad]

Very interesting chunkielad... Thanks for the post! You got me thinking for sure. 45 degree for the scarf? Not too worried about cosmetics cuz this would be tucked away in the neck pocket.

The only thing to keep in mind on a scarf one is whether you will hit the end of the truss rod. If that's going to happen, the 2nd option may be better - you should get 5 or 6mm before the rod with that method I'd have thought. Hence a 5-6mm back slab and then just fill in the 'end' as it were.

I remember someone on here tuning a bolt on into a glue in with a similar method.

[Drak]

Thanks for the post Drak........I've been building them for some years now. Would'nt really call it building since warmoth did all the work. I just focused in finishing and constructing it.

I understand that and that's perfectly fine, and the questions you're asking are good ones, I'm just recommending that you focus on these issues, as they are the 'make or break' issues in understanding what makes a guitar a playable and intonatable instrument. When you buy pre-made parts from a company, they did all the figuring for you, but now you have to step into that role and actually learn the why's and how's (which is fun really, and empowering also )

Once you 'get it', the whole story unfolds before your eyes and you can build any scale length you want on any piece of material you want of any shape you want with as many frets as you want.

One note: You HAVE to have the neck in hand you will use on that guitar before you start routing anything.

Trust me here.

Templates are great, but if there is ANY variation, you will be screwed, and none of us wants to see that happen, especially with you mentioning using differing necks and 24 fret versions, it all makes a difference, and the bridge needs to be dead-on accurate.

So, as mentioned above, you need to figure out what first step is, and in this case, it's taking posession of the actual neck you will use, that is setting up the whole rest of the game that will follow.

BTW, be careful of the 24 fret necks, don't route your neck pkp pocket until you see where your fretboard is going to end on the body.

I will mention a few mistakes that could possibly happen if you don't understand the basics of scale length/bridge placement/neck pocket depth/additional frets...

1. You route the body per the template, route the bridge, pickups, everything.

Then you buy a 24 fret, 15" flat radiused neck.

The neck winds up covering half of your neck pickup hole (ouch)

You bought a bridge that can't adapt to a 15" radiused neck (ouch)

The bridge is routed in the wrong place, the instrument won't intonate at all (ouch)

Or...

2. You route your neck pocket 1/8" too low, thinking hell, it won't make much difference, only to find that now the strings are presented to the saddles on the bridge much too low to be usable at all (ouch).

There's many more things that can happen like this, that if you read up on the subjects I mentioned, you will 'get it' and not get caught out, because you now can use all these things to your advantage, they will no longer be 'unknown variables', they will be your choices and your decisions and everything will turn out very cool in the end and you will win the GOTM and everyone will love you.