Excessive Fret/string Rattling

[ByronBlack]

Hi

I've been having an issue with my setup. So far I've followed most of the tutorials, doing all the checks in order etc.. but I can't seem to get my head around the problem. When I play there is some low level buzzing when I fret the strings in various locations, these in themselves aren't a massive problem although I would like to sort that, the main issue is that strings seem to slap or strike the frets creating a nasty rattly clashy sound, this is most evident when palm muting - obviously this is pushing the strings lower, but it shouldnt be this noisy when playing.

I have just enough releif that I can fit a business card under the strings, the frets seem to be level, i.e there is no rocking when I check with a straight edge (i'm testing three frets at a time as advised). The action is 2mm at the 12th fret (again slightly higher than recommended actions i've seen in tutorials, and about the max I like to play at).

My initial impressions are that the strings are striking a number of frets close to the body around 18/19 upwards or so but I can't really see this in action.

I levelled the fret-board and the frets prior to installing on the guitar, now it's under string pressure, could this have altered the relationship of the frets and would the body-end frets be relatively higher due to not flattening when under string tension? Should I go ahead and lower these frets?

Can someone help me pin point this problem and fix it?? It's a shame not to get this playing nicely after the many hours I've put into it!!

TIA

[Jon]

Is this the guitar you leveled with a radius block? I have never been able to achieve properly leveled frets with a radius block. To me it sounds like an issue with relief and higher frets on the upper neck.

[ByronBlack]

Hi Jon, thanks for the quick reply. Yes, this is the one I levelled with the radius block. You say its an issue with relief and the upper frets - what should I do to confirm this and then to fix it? In terms of levelling, I've checked doing the 'rocking' method and havn't noticed any major problems with individual frets so what would be the next step?

[guitar2005]

Is this the guitar you leveled with a radius block? I have never been able to achieve properly leveled frets with a radius block. To me it sounds like an issue with relief and higher frets on the upper neck.

Agreed, but I don't think the problem comes from the radius block.

Relief - Sounds like you have tons of relief on the neck right now. I usually set the relief on my guitars to 0.09". You could probably bring it back a little.

Upper Frets - You should check that the upper fret or neck region isn't higher than the rest of the neck. This is a common problem and can be checked failry easily. Put a capo at the 12th fret and press down on the string past the last fret. The last 3-4 frets should have no gap between the string and the top of the fret.

Action - This is another variable that you may want to check. I usually set my action to a hair under 1/16" on the treble side. The top of the string is under the 1/16" mark. On the bass side, I set it to 3/32" and I make all my mesaurements at the 22nd fret. If you have low action, expect some amount of buzzing, at least on the bass strings. If I want a clean sound as I do on my Strat, I set the action a little higher on the bass side.

Edited January 25, 2008 by guitar2005

[ByronBlack]

guitar2005 - thats some excellent information, thank you. When I get in later i'll do the checks and see whats what.

If the rear frets are too high which was my original uneducated assumption, what would be the corrective procedure? I don't have a neck jig to recreate the relief under string tension, so is there another method that I can use to lower the frets to the correct height without guessing? When I place a straight edge along the frets, other than the relief they are all level relative to each other, so I'm assuming that when I levelled them I must have sanded at small angle/incline hence why they seem level, but they are probably 'ramped'

Thanks again for your help.

[ByronBlack]

Ok, I've adjusted the truss-rod to remove some of the relief and got the neck straighter, I've also adjusted the action so it matches similar to the figures posted, this is a lot better, the clashy sound has pretty much gone, however, I still seem to have quite a lot of buzzing over almost all of the fretboard, it's especially noticeable when sliding over a fret or a number of frets, would this indicate poor crowning?

I tested the capo at 12 fret method, and the strings do touch the top of the last four frets, they touch more than the last four - is that a problem?

Is there a really good book that will help me pin-point these kinds of problems and fix them as I'm getting more and more confused the more I research through this forum and other sources online, so many contradictary information and ideas it's difficult to ascertain what is the best approach, I'm especially puzzled on how to perform a proper level without a neck jig - assuming this is my problem (I leveled when not under string tension)

[ByronBlack]

is there no one that can help further on this subject? If you don't want to help thats fine, but can someone refer me to somewhere or something that will help, I've done a ton of researching and getting nowhere fast, thanks.

[guitar2005]

Ok, I've adjusted the truss-rod to remove some of the relief and got the neck straighter, I've also adjusted the action so it matches similar to the figures posted, this is a lot better, the clashy sound has pretty much gone, however, I still seem to have quite a lot of buzzing over almost all of the fretboard, it's especially noticeable when sliding over a fret or a number of frets, would this indicate poor crowning?

I tested the capo at 12 fret method, and the strings do touch the top of the last four frets, they touch more than the last four - is that a problem?

Is there a really good book that will help me pin-point these kinds of problems and fix them as I'm getting more and more confused the more I research through this forum and other sources online, so many contradictary information and ideas it's difficult to ascertain what is the best approach, I'm especially puzzled on how to perform a proper level without a neck jig - assuming this is my problem (I leveled when not under string tension)

You don't need the neck jig. I don't have one and have done many good setups. A lot of guitars techs do without the neck jig. I'm sure it would help but I can't comment on that because I never used one.

If the strings touch more than the last 4 frets with the 12th fret capoed, that's perfectly acceptable. That test is to ensure that the fretboard doesn't rise up. I was just saying "at least" the 3-4 last frets. If you capo at the first fret do hold the strings down past the last fret, you'll see that you start getting some relief after the last couple of frets. Without actually seeing the guitar, its hard to diagnose because there are other factors like number of frets and to a certain extent scale length that come into play.

Do you have a long straightedge you can put on the neck, in playing position, to see if the relief has a nice curve along the length of the neck?

For references, the stew mac book on fretting is an excellent choice. It goes through the steps and how to analyse a difficult neck. Definitely a good guide.

Edited January 26, 2008 by guitar2005

[ByronBlack]

thanks guitar 2005, I'll check out the book and hopefully sort out the buzzing.

I've checked the relief with a straight-edge and all seems well, since adjusting the truss-rod and getting the neck straighter I have a smaller releif but it's visible and this has improved the rattling somewhat. From what you have said, I think I probably need to look at the crowning, after reading more on the subject, one of the things that came up was the flat frets can cause buzzing, and i'm getting a fair bit all over the fretboard and it's most noticeably when sliding over a couple of frets, so I might have a go at re-crowning.

With regards not having a neck jig. What do you do to ensure that a fret level and crown is accurate if you can't simulate string tension? I've come to believe that you can't do this probably un-tensioned, is this wrong??