Guitar Finishing Help Needed

[acceler8]

ok, so I've had my guitar built and ready to paint for ages and haven't got around to it yet. I've been trying to track down what supplies I need, what I can buy in my area (Vancouver, Canada) and here's what I've come up with:

Colour Tone Water based filler (from stew mac)

Colour Tone Concentrated Liquid Stain (Stew Mac)

Watco glossy Lacquer, apparently this stuff is nitro and it comes in a spray can, and I can but it at Home Hardware around here.

here's the link: http://www.homehardware.ca/Products/index/...atco_gloss_319g

The reason Im going with the watco, rather than a stew mac lacquer is because they cant ship aerosol stuff to canada.

My plan is to Stain the guitar black and do a glossy lacquer over that. Now this is where I need some help. I've heard that you need to use sanding sealer somewhere in the process but I'm not sure what product to buy if I do. Can I just use the watco lacquer as a sanding sealer?

The next thing I'm not sure about is what order to apply these finishes in. What I'm assuming is something like this:

1 Water based filler (mixed with liquid stain)

2 Sanding sealer (if I need it)

3 Watco glossy Lacquer

4 Polish

Is this correct, or does the sanding sealer go on before the stain/ grain filler?

Any tips and advice would be greatly appreciated! I've searched forums high and low and gotten a ton of info so far, but I just want to make sure if exactly what I'm planning is going to work out.

Thanks!

[copperhead]

ok, so I've had my guitar built and ready to paint for ages and haven't got around to it yet. I've been trying to track down what supplies I need, what I can buy in my area (Vancouver, Canada) and here's what I've come up with:

Colour Tone Water based filler (from stew mac)

Colour Tone Concentrated Liquid Stain (Stew Mac)

Watco glossy Lacquer, apparently this stuff is nitro and it comes in a spray can, and I can but it at Home Hardware around here.

here's the link: http://www.homehardware.ca/Products/index/...atco_gloss_319g

The reason Im going with the watco, rather than a stew mac lacquer is because they cant ship aerosol stuff to canada.

My plan is to Stain the guitar black and do a glossy lacquer over that. Now this is where I need some help. I've heard that you need to use sanding sealer somewhere in the process but I'm not sure what product to buy if I do. Can I just use the watco lacquer as a sanding sealer?

The next thing I'm not sure about is what order to apply these finishes in. What I'm assuming is something like this:

1 Water based filler (mixed with liquid stain)

2 Sanding sealer (if I need it)

3 Watco glossy Lacquer

4 Polish

Is this correct, or does the sanding sealer go on before the stain/ grain filler?

Any tips and advice would be greatly appreciated! I've searched forums high and low and gotten a ton of info so far, but I just want to make sure if exactly what I'm planning is going to work out.

Thanks!

filler if your using open grain woods

i usually go analine dye (waterbased) first, then a light coat of lacquer sometimes called a wash coat to seal in the color, then grain filler here in canada which you can get at any store that sells benjamin moore products then sanding sealer which benjamin moore also carries, i use couple of coats of that is works very well sands very easy then watco lacquer . which i use as well with great results

[acceler8]

Ok, that definitely helps. I'll check out benjamin moore paints this weekend.

Does it matter what kind of sanding sealer I get? Should I look for a water based one or a nitro one?

[copperhead]

Ok, that definitely helps. I'll check out benjamin moore paints this weekend.

Does it matter what kind of sanding sealer I get? Should I look for a water based one or a nitro one?

not all sanding sealer is compatable with nitro lacquer the benjamin moore is ,look for vinyl toluene in the ingredients

i would use watco lacquer,benjamin moore sanding sealer ,and the benjamin moore grain filler thats all i use always had great results

[dugg]

I've used Dylon fabric dyes (which are aniline based, pretty sure) to dye two bodies so far, one alder and one poplar. I just bought it at Wallmart. I did black dye on the poplar body and, though the Dylon works well, dying light wood black is tricky. Some things I read (sorry can't remember where) suggested that straight black dye would look bluish unless yellow and red were laid down first, so that's what I did. I wasn't happy with my results, but finishing is often like that in that you're the one who knows the imperfections and others usually think it looks fine. For me, a bit more practice would give exellent results. You may already be more competent with finishes than me, it's my weak point. Just want to warn you that dying wood black has some difficulties, but that I can also see that if done right, would look really nice.

[acceler8]

Thanks Dugg. I plan on taking a scrap piece of the ash that I built the guitar out of and testing out on that first. Hopefully any problems that may arise will be discovered and solved at that point.

[copperhead]

nice find, but just one thing to worry about some dye's do fade .i use these

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=...190&p=42996

or this

http://www.woodessence.com/dyesdefault.html

[avengers63]

1 Water based filler (mixed with liquid stain)

2 Sanding sealer (if I need it)

3 Watco glossy Lacquer

4 Polish

There are a couple of unidentified variables which will change that list.

Which wood is the body made from? Is it an open grained wood or closed? If it's a closed grain wood, yo don't need to fill.

Is the filler stainable? If so, you won't need to color the filler at all.

Once the grain is filled, the only purpose I can see for sanding sealer is to prevent the finish from bleeding out the dye. If you use aniline dyes, I don't believe this will be an issue, but I'm not positive. Dye a piece of scrap but don't seal it. Test the finish on it. If the dye doesn't bleed out, you've saved a step. If you DO use it, be extremely careful when sanding it smooth NOT TO SAND THROUGH. You could easily go through the dye as well. You can't seal the wood first before applying the dye to avoid the risk, either. If it's sealed, the dye can't penetrate into the wood. You're a LOT better off in this case if you don't have to use the sanding sealer. Any and every film finish (which lacquer is) penetrates into and seals the wood great with the first coat.

Alternately, you can use sealer to fill the grain. Many of us have done this with great success. With a dyed top, this could be a risky proposition, as I described above, but it COULD be done. You'd simply apply coat after coat, sanding between coats, until the grain is all filed up. I've done this a few times and it works great.

Again though - if you use grain giller and the finish doesn't bleed the dye, you don't need to use the sanding sealer.

Just to throw a wrench in the gears... you can use shellac as a sealer. It will seal the wood great and it doesn't have the occasional adhesion problem with finishes that sanding sealer can have. The only problem is that it doesn't sand well.

Now take some pics and show us what you're working on!

[copperhead]

1 Water based filler (mixed with liquid stain)

2 Sanding sealer (if I need it)

3 Watco glossy Lacquer

4 Polish

There are a couple of unidentified variables which will change that list.

Which wood is the body made from? Is it an open grained wood or closed? If it's a closed grain wood, yo don't need to fill.

Is the filler stain-able? If so, you won't need to color the filler at all.

Once the grain is filled, the only purpose I can see for sanding sealer is to prevent the finish from bleeding out the dye. If you use aniline dyes, I don't believe this will be an issue, but I'm not positive. Dye a piece of scrap but don't seal it. Test the finish on it. If the dye doesn't bleed out, you've saved a step. If you DO use it, be extremely careful when sanding it smooth NOT TO SAND THROUGH. You could easily go through the dye as well. You can't seal the wood first before applying the dye to avoid the risk, either. If it's sealed, the dye can't penetrate into the wood. You're a LOT better off in this case if you don't have to use the sanding sealer. Any and every film finish (which lacquer is) penetrates into and seals the wood great with the first coat.

Alternately, you can use sealer to fill the grain. Many of us have done this with great success. With a dyed top, this could be a risky proposition, as I described above, but it COULD be done. You'd simply apply coat after coat, sanding between coats, until the grain is all filed up. I've done this a few times and it works great.

Again though - if you use grain filler and the finish doesn't bleed the dye, you don't need to use the sanding sealer.

Just to throw a wrench in the gears... you can use shellac as a sealer. It will seal the wood great and it doesn't have the occasional adhesion problem with finishes that sanding sealer can have. The only problem is that it doesn't sand well.

Now take some pics and show us what you're working on!

well sanding sealer gives you that nice first coat really its the same of many coats of lacquer but its very easy to sand its thick it kinda fills in imperfections as for grain filler it can be colored with any oilbased stain i never tryed to color it with waterbased stain or dye, i dont think it would be compatable i colored some for a guitar body with minwax ebony black stain it turned out ok

dye or stain(waterbased) this is not as easy as it seems i would wet the wood before applying dye especially the edges endgrain

washcoat 1 to 2 coats of lacquer over the dye

if your applying grain filler for open grain wood it will be here after the washcoat

sanding sealer 2 to 3 coats i usually brush it on with a foam brush sand off most if it will be sanded off anyway

then you lacquer

Edited April 24, 2009 by copperhead

[acceler8]

wow, thanks for all the help from everyone so far. I'm definitely getting a much better idea of what I need to do. The guitar I'm working on is made out of Ash (Canadian Ash, not Swamp Ash). The reason for this is that it was more readily available here, and to be honest, I just didn't do enough research before buying the wood. It looks just like swamp ash as far as I can tell, its just quite a bit heavier. Its going to weigh about the same as my les paul. Oh well

I'll post some pics tonight

[acceler8]

Ok, so I didnt get time to post any pics of my guitar until now. So here it is so far:

Its kind of a jazz master/reverend body design with a different pic gaurd. The actual shape of the pic gaurd needs to be tweaked a bit. The one on there right now was my first attempt and Im not super happy with it yet. My plan is to make maybe 2 or 3 pic gaurds and get different abstract graphical images printed on to decals that I will put on each one, so they're basically face plates for the guitar. That is also why I want to do the guitar black, because its sort of a neutral canvas for the imagery that will be on the front. The neck is from Warmoth and the pick ups are dimarzio virtual Ts. The sound the guitar gets on its bridge PU is something similar to Matt Bellamy's sound (from Muse) in the song Hypermusic, which is pretty sweet, as they are my favorite band.

I went to Benjamin Moore Paints today and picked up these two items

The guy at the store said he didnt think they were compatible with lacquer, but he didnt sound to sure. Copperhead, if these are the same products you are using in combination with the Watco lacquer, I'll take your word for it that they should work.

The sanding sealer says it must not be used under urethane products. Also, does contain vinyl toluene:

And as I mentioned I will be testing them on scrap wood first. I just want to make sure they are the right thing before I open them and am not able to return them any more.

Im also thinking Im going to pick up the black dye from woodessence.com, so thanks for the link.

[dugg]

That's absolutely the most beautiful body shape I've seen in a long time. I've always liked JM's and I think you may have actually improved on that design. Nice piece of wood too, be sure to post more pics as you finish it! Water based anilines are the most permanent fade resistant dyes available. The fabric anilines are about a third the price of the ones made for wood and I'm not sure there's a difference. With such a beautiful piece of wood, I'd consider using shellac as a sealer over the dye instead of going right to the laquer. Maybe even finish with french polish instead? Just my idear.