First build - "Birthmark"

[henrim]

54 minutes ago, Asdrael said:

"traditional"

I didn’t think one was more traditional than the other. Just two ways to do the joint. I have done it both ways and I guess I dislike them equally Anyway, if I had to choose I reckon I would do the opposite of what you did here. For no particular reason but I guess it just feels better to sandwich the joint with the fretboard.

[Asdrael]

I called it traditional because it's usually what you see in commercial instruments. I was just so afraid of having a bad joint that I couldn't sand down properly and feel up the neck that I went with one fully in the headstock, that I actually have never seen in a commercial electric guitar. Hoping my choice was the right one. Having bumps or uneveness right there is scary for me:

[henrim]

10 minutes ago, Asdrael said:

that I actually have never seen in a commercial electric guitar.

Both are used. And structurally they should both be just fine.

I had to check what we have in the house. Most of them don’t have scarf joints but this Ibanez electro-acoustic has it your way.

[Asdrael]

I stand corrected. Thanks!

 

I'm not too scared that this kind of joint will be solid *if* well made. I'm more scared of how well I'll do it But at least it won't be in the way and should be easier to repair.

[avengers63]

Like henrim said - there are two ways of doing it, and neither are wrong. 

MY PERSONAL VOODOO: I'd only do it the way you did if I were going to put a headplate on it. This would hide the joint. In my mind, it seems like it would also strengthen the joint. I have -zero- proof, but it still feels right.  

Doing it the other way gives you the opportunity to bling up the joint. A 1/8" accent piece highlighting the joint really makes a visual difference. EG: This is a pic of the glue-up of the neck for my high end build. The main part of the shaft is a 7-piece sandwich of chechen and white limba. I put in a white limba scarf accent. As the headstock is all chechen, no stripes, the scarf accent serves not only as decoration, but as a visual barrier for the end of the striped part.

 

Also, as I mentioned before, I didn't give one thought to having the headstock piece all angled and perfect. After it came out of the clamps, but before the ears were glued on, I took it to the bandsaw to remove the majority of the excess, then ran it through the jointer to level it out. 

 

This next one is after the truss rod channel was routed and the ears were being glued on. As you can see, jointing it afterwards is a hellofalot easier and cleaner.

 

The final thing, after the headpiece was both on and inlaid. I honestly don't remember, but I probably hit it in the jointer after the headpiece was on. Also, I screwed up. The headstock piece was about 1" thick. I completely forgot to thin it down before doing the headpiece & ears. This significantly moved the placement of the scarf on the shaft. I'm not happy with this, but it's what it is and there's no going back now.

[Asdrael]

13 hours ago, avengers63 said:

Like henrim said - there are two ways of doing it, and neither are wrong. 

MY PERSONAL VOODOO: I'd only do it the way you did if I were going to put a headplate on it. This would hide the joint. In my mind, it seems like it would also strengthen the joint. I have -zero- proof, but it still feels right.  

That was my thinking as well. Since I'm going with a headplate, I see no downsides to "my" way. I also read that since it's basically laminating the headstock, it's reinforced. Ultimately, I would like to go with a laminated neck that doesn't require a scarf joint but that would have been significantly more expensive. So a no-go for a first build for me.

 

13 hours ago, avengers63 said:

Doing it the other way gives you the opportunity to bling up the joint. A 1/8" accent piece highlighting the joint really makes a visual difference. EG: This is a pic of the glue-up of the neck for my high end build. The main part of the shaft is a 7-piece sandwich of chechen and white limba. I put in a white limba scarf accent. As the headstock is all chechen, no stripes, the scarf accent serves not only as decoration, but as a visual barrier for the end of the striped part.

I have also been following your -impressive- build. I may dabble with more fanciness once I'm confident I have the basics more or less down. Hence why my build plan is ulra-basic. In a way tho, it's reassuring that someone of your caliber is still making some mistakes

[Asdrael]

Well, after a fruitful discuss, I have conjugal authorization to go to the workshop once weekly for however many hours I want. So today I left work early and stayed there until 23:00. Mind you, I don't get much done each time because I'm so slow still... but at least I can enjoy myself.

So today, I had a new best friend:

I was planning on using this bad boy to thickness my headstock and start the volute shape. Which I did:

I used this contraption to make sure the thickness was fine and to help with the volute:

It worked somewhat, but the plate wasn't that stable (one thread of the screw holding it was lose). So I had a bit of a dip in my headstock close to the volute. I had to get the thickness a tad lower that I wanted by hand, and I fell in love with my Shinto rasp. Holy shit that stuff is awesome. Anyhow, after a bit of sweat, I ended up with an almost perfect headstock sanded down to 400 grit (+-0.5 mm).

 

Which gave me the perfect setting to start working on the veneer. I sanded it down roughly to 2mm and finished it to 1.5mm thickness by hand, to 400 grit as well.

Now it was just a matter of putting it in place, and this time putting actually recessed screws as guides for glueing.

I was aiming at 14 to 15mm thickness as my tuners fit 13 to 16mm. Mission accomplished:

so yeah, I put some glue and aligned the guides, screwed them down. Thought about my mistake not clamping the neck well enough...

 

I made many mistakes today, but I learned a lot. Apparently I watched enough tutorials, videos etc and have enough common sense to get in the flow and not ask myself 'shit what do I do next again'. But I too often simply go for it to realize later that the tool was probably not the best. I need to be more careful - slow and steady wins to race. I am hoping my headstock cap joint will be nicer than the scarf joint. I guess I'll know that in a few days. Next stop - clean up, some sanding and truss rods / CF routes!

[Bizman62]

8 hours ago, Asdrael said:

after a fruitful discuss, I have conjugal authorization

Discussion is the key. Yelling or sulking don't in the long run. Besides, your agreement gives your spouse some precious time not having to watch your face and listen to your stories. Win-win!

8 hours ago, Asdrael said:

I used this contraption to make sure the thickness was fine and to help with the volute:

<image removed to save space>

It worked somewhat, but the plate wasn't that stable

There's a solid piece of squared 4x4 in our workshop. It's stable! Another thing is that a) the end roller may be slanted for keeping the belt from wandering and b) the end table may not be vertical or not perpendicular to the roller.

One hint for clamping thin veneers: Using a piece of board or a template to even the pressure is common practice but if you add a piece of thin foam between the board and the veneer, any blobs of glue or air bubbles may squeeze out easier. The 3 mm plastic packaging foam is perfect as it will be pressed very thin by clamping.

Sehr gut bisher!

[Asdrael]

40 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

One hint for clamping thin veneers: Using a piece of board or a template to even the pressure is common practice but if you add a piece of thin foam between the board and the veneer, any blobs of glue or air bubbles may squeeze out easier. The 3 mm plastic packaging foam is perfect as it will be pressed very thin by clamping.

Thanks again for keeping up with my build and all the advice and feedback, much appreciated!

I thought about putting some cushion or foam between the veneer and the clamping board, since (despite my best efforts) each glued side is probably not 100% flat. I couldn't think of something strong enough to push wood down and not be pushed back by the wood, while still being somewhat easy to sand down. Frankly I didn't think about packaging foam. I think I might use it for the next build. Any advice for glueing the fretboad? Hopefully it will be straight, and since the truss rod doesn't get glue, I was thinking of making a small route / arch in the middle of the clamping board to make sure the sides are nice and tight, and no glue line will be seen.

Also, any tips on how to draw the centerline on the headstock perfectly aligned with the center line on the neck blank? This will be important since I have an inline headstock for string tension but I don't know how to do that.

Cheers!

[Asdrael]

Went back today to unclamp my gooey mess from yesterday. Got scared because the wax paper stuck hard, but then I realized I had used way too much glue.

 

 

Removing the paper left me with something promising and every single side with excess glue.

 

So I had to do what every noob builder does. Dig in to check the quality of the joint. I cut a bit off and sanding it with the belt sander just to get a quick glimpse... Queue the macro shot (veneer is 1.5mm thick at that stage).

No visible glue joint! I did a much better job than with the scarf joint. I am happy with the progress. Now I have to clean up the nut area so it's flat, and I'll be able to route some channels.

[Bizman62]

11 hours ago, Asdrael said:

Any advice for glueing the fretboad?

That depends on whether it's radiused or not. A flat board only requires a flat piece of board to even the pressure (package foam?), A radiused board can be pressed down by using a radiused sanding block. A bunch of narrow strips might also work but getting them clamped can be challenging. If you've got nothing else, three narrow boards with some packaging foam should do the trick. Five might be even better. And you could use gaffer/duct tape on the glue side to attach the strips together. The edges are the most important places so making the outermost strips wedge shaped might work best.  See illustration!

Further thinking, you could even fold the foam some 5 mm at the very edge for additional pressure. Or glue a narrow strip of cardboard there?

11 hours ago, Asdrael said:

any tips on how to draw the centerline on the headstock perfectly aligned with the center line on the neck blank?

Many ways to skin a cat... Put a small block at the end of the headstock so that will be level or a bit higher than the neck. Then use either a laser beam or a length of cord or a long ruler from point A (body end of the neck) to point C (block) going through point B (nut end of the neck). It might be even easier from the bottom side using a flexible long ruler.

Well done with the glue joint, BTW!

[Asdrael]

Thanks. Since my fretboard will be glued flat, I think I will use a flat block on top with one or 2 layers of masking tape on the sides for additional thickness + packaging foam. Seems to somewhat make sense to me. And for the headstock, your block idea makes total sense. I'll draw this way and then check with my plexiglass template if I have a good alignment. Cheers again!

[Bizman62]

A couple of layers of masking tape at the edges of the gluing block is a solid idea and for what I've understood it's also commonly used. Having one layer closer to the edge than the other will also create more of a wedge to add even more pressure there. And yes, we're talking about very small differences in thickness.

[Asdrael]

Small question before I go ruining my neck.

My truss rod has, apparently, a 6mm core but a plastic wrapping around it making it 6.2 or so mm wide squeezing the caliper on it (I have that https://shop.rall-online.net/epages/61511639.sf/sec7cdac98ad9/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61511639/Products/06010034 ). The caliper kinda bumps back to 6.25mm or so once I stop squeezing, I guess due to the plastic getting its shape back. I am confused: am I supposed to route a 6mm channel or a 1/4" channel? Even squeezing it with the caliper, I can't get its width to lower values. I know it's supposed to sit confortably tight, but I don't see myself squeezing 0.2mm in maple and still have a trussrod that can do its job.

So... should I route a 6mm or a 1/4" route?

Edited June 21, 2023 by Asdrael

[Bizman62]

Living in Millimeterland where all the router bits in the workshop have either a 6 or 8 mm shank with mm scaled tips I've never even thought about that! I've just taken the 6 mm bit. Your logic makes sense, though.

There may be several reasons why that 6 mm bit has worked for our entire group. First, the axis of the router may wobble just enough. Second, the fence system in a handheld router isn't that stable and since we tend to start from flat without any predrilling, routing only 1 or 2 mm at a go, the subsequent runs may add some extra width. Third, the groove often seems to be off-center just a little bit no matter how accurately you're trying to set the bit and re-routing to fix that also adds some width.

The truss rod itself looks similar to those I've been using and it shows in the picture as well that the bottom side is narrower than the flat top. That's yet another "issue" as that shape doesn't match with any single router bit.

I suggest you do a test run on a piece of scrap. If the 6 mm is too narrow and the 1/4" too wide, one option is to use the smaller bit with a fence and widen the channel by applying masking tape on the fence for a second run.

Anyhow, a little loose is better than way too tight. As long as the channel is narrow enough to keep the rod from rotating around its longitudinal axis it should work and tightening the rod snug should take care of any rattle.

 

[henrim]

Since the rod is 6,2 mm, quarter inch bit is too wide. But 6.2 mm rod shouldn’t  be forced into a 6 mm slot. I would route with 6 mm bit and check the width. Then do an additional pass cutting 0,2 mm from one side if needed. Or cut 0,1 mm from both sides if you can. No problem with a milling machine but maybe a stretch with a handheld router.

[Asdrael]

Thanks for the replies. I also live in Millimeterland but I didn't think about any wobble in the router to be honest, so it makes sense. I won't be using a fence as I have built a jig to go with my router (it's a Triton JOF, decided to treat myself and wanted something to take 12mm shafts too) so *hopefully* I will have something dead straight... I have a 1/4" bit that I had bought just for the truss rod but had second thoughts yesterday so I triple checked. that I will try out on a piece of scrap and see the fit. If it's not to my liking, I will get a 6mm bit and see where it takes me. At least the carbon fiber rods at exactly 5mm

[henrim]

Honestly, 0,1 mm would be a terrible runout. Even on a router. Of course the router bit may not be exactly 6.00 mm, and the channel will end up being wider then 6 mm. But 0.2 is more than I would like to think. If that happened to me I’d get rid of the tool and do some serious thinking about what went wrong. I would prepare for shaving the channel a bit or peeling the plastic wrap off of the rod. Or first go with 6 mm and see where you end up. If needed widen the slot with 1/4” bit and shim the rod on both ends (at least).

Edited June 22, 2023 by henrim

[Bizman62]

5 hours ago, henrim said:

If needed widen the slot with 1/4” bit and shim the rod on both ends (at least).

A layer or two of tape (electrician, masking, gaffa) on the underside would get you very close.

[Asdrael]

Welp, just came back from my weekly allowance of time in the workshop. I am loving it.

 

First order of the day was to cut/sand down the headstock veneer flush with the neck. After using the magical drum sander to take the bulk off, I struggled with a chisel, spent time sweating with a file, and remembered I had bought a scrapper. Which is now my favorite tool - tied with the shinto file. (Obviously not the final picture, more of an in progress picture.)

Amazing how it turned out smooth, flush, and the headstock angle is nice and neat and straight. Really stupidly efficient tool for a sheet of metal.

Next, I wanted to work on the truss rod issue. So I started by calibrating the truss rod jig I made. Start by somewhat putting a centerline of a sheet of MDF in the middle...

 

Make a few holes with the router and move the jig slightly until they are perfectly on the line...

And route a channel to make sure it's straight and perfectly centered:

I am happy! First time using a router ever, so I got to know that tool. I had a close call once that got my heart racing (turning it on already in contact with a piece of wood and not griping it strongly enough) so I learned some. This is a 1/4" channel (6.31 mm caliper in hand). Truss rod in:

My truss rod drops in smoothly and has the tiniest side wobble (I had to squint to see it move and I got 10/10 vision). However, the truss rod falls out when I flip the board upside down. Is this how it is supposed to be? Or should it be tighter? For reference, I have routed a 5mm channel for my 5mm carbon reinforcement to try out positioning on that scrap, and it is only very minimally tighter. (Also I made a mistake with the depth, note for future self: tighten the depth stop more).

 

Until I decide if I go with this or widen a 6mm route, I decide to sand the neck blank a tad to prepare it further. And sanding means centerline and shape drawing - thanks again for the centerline tip @Bizman62 . I used a sewing thread and it worked a charm.

 

Since I had some time left but was still undecided on the actuall truss rod route, I decided to work on the fretboard since my blank was a 10mm thick rough cut. I planned and sanded one side (the jointer we have works now yeeeaahh). Everything went well there, until I decided to thickness it. I made a carrier board with a head and a tail piece to avoid snipe. Everything was going well except those pieces were in MDF and I just discovered it clogs the thicknessing part of the sander - hard. So I solved that somehow by taking very light passes, like 0.5mm max.

All was well, do a pass, see 6.9 mm thickness. I decide to do one more pass because I want a 6mm fretboard final product, so I am aiming to thickness close to that.

Lower thickness by 0.5mm.

The thicknesser shits out my board, perfectly flat, square, polished, whatever, but at 5.7 mm. What the heck. Either the scale is wrong, or the MDF pieces played tricks on me.

In the end, I am not too sad. I learned to used the jointer/thicknesser more properly, to take smaller passes, and the board is still very usable. I am going for a 17" radius, so thickness on the sides (even on a 7 string), will be sufficient. The maple neck will just have to be a tad thicker which isn't too bad since I am using CF rods and I am scared of pocking through when neck shaping. I will try to minimally shave from the top when radiusing. If I have a 5.5mm max thickness in the middle, my 3D model tells me I'll be over 4mm on the very sides. Not dramatic at all. I might just have to rethink my side dots as I bought 3mm diameter ones in advance...

[Bizman62]

8 hours ago, Asdrael said:

the truss rod falls out when I flip the board upside down. Is this how it is supposed to be? Or should it be tighter?

That could be tighter but it's not crucial. The carbon rods are a different animal as they're not supposed to move at all and are solidly glued in place.

As said,
a) the rod is somewhat V shaped so the bottom side will wobble no matter what,
b) it's snug enough to keep from rolling longitudinally and
c) when tightened ever so slightly it won't rattle.

Some people use a few drops of silicone or pieces of rolled masking tape to seat the truss rod snugly yet free to do its job. Narrow strips of tape should also adjust the thickness to the groove. BTW your truss rod routing jig looks fool proof!

[Asdrael]

Cheers. The carbon rods will get superglue medium viscosity along the sides, plus Titebond on top when the fretboard is clamped on. I am not worried about those in the slightest.

For the truss rod, good points all around. In the end, I am more confident in my ability to add a few drops of silicon / a wrap of teflon tape / whatever to make a truss rod fit snuggly in a "perfectly routed channel" than in my ability to widen a 6mm channel to 6.20 while keeping it straight and clean. So that's how I will do it.

The other major success of yesterday was that my family is happy for me to do that, more than I ever thought. So yay - my son wants to come watch me there so we'll make a wooden nameplate for his door together. He said "I am happy add is happy screwing things in a workshop"... little guy is convinced I spent 5 hours with a screwdriver apparently.

Now if I could stop (day)dreaming about what I'll do next in the shop that would be great

[henrim]

My kids visit the shop every now and then and they may have some projects of their own. Which is great. But I have found out that I either hang around with them giving them tools, materials and help them or I close the door and build in solitude. I just can’t concentrate if someone is around. I never have radio or music on either when I work.

[Asdrael]

Well, some progress! Somehow...

The 6mm router bit I got to try out the width of the truss rod channel was significantly too small. Couldn't put the truss rod at all in the cavity. So I took my 1/4" bit and I decided to route my truss rod channel on my actual neck. Queue putting the jig on, routing to depth, and switching the bit for a 10mm one for allen key access:

Looks decent! I Just had to square up at the heel and widen slightly for the round bit at the front.

Queue issue 1: this is significantly too wide overall. The truss rod, once dropped in, can move quite a bit. Well shit, it's all 0.5mm too wide. I must have not tighten the jig enough and it moved. The depth is on point though. Shit, I have to find a fix.

Queue actual issue: my head is starting to spin, needles in the finger, strength fading, stomach swirling... welp, food poisoning from lunch. Had my girlfriend pick me up in a hurry so I could projectile vomit in my own toilets. Yay.

Anyhow, I am feeling better now so I had to fix my mistake. I dropped by the hardware shop and bought some Teflon tape:

That's one wrapped truss rod, 0.5mm wider! Now sits snuggly. But also a bit proud, since I also have to deepen the cavity slightly. Since I didn't want to reroute and risk widening the cavity even more, I got to get creative: Took a 6mm wide scrap, and taped some sandpaper on it:

And it fits!

 

After 15 minutes of careful sanding, I have now this: a perfectly flush truss rod, snug enough to not move and staying in place when I put the neck upside down. A drop of silicon at each end and it'll be perfect.

 

Next stop: the 2 CF rods, which I will route after I redo my jig with more solid pieces. And hopefully, no vomiting that time.

[Bizman62]

10 hours ago, Asdrael said:

That's one wrapped truss rod, 0.5mm wider! Now sits snuggly. But also a bit proud,

That's why I suggested applying strips on the sides instead of wrapping...

Then again, you had to do some inventive thinking to find out a safe way to deepen the truss rod channel so as a learning experience it's all perfect!