mrjstudios Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 PSW -- "The reasoning behind the preamp with harmonic/phase control rather than just swaping the driver leads around with a phase switch is this... The driver leads are effectively an extention of the coil. As we know, the coil gives off EMI (bad) and so too do the leads to some extent. You don't want these high current leads to be threaded through your control cavities or anywhere near your pickups ideally" Ok, that's what I thought -- you are just trying to dramatically reduce EMI, which makes sense with this solution, and does give a big advantage over a 'squeeling' (and fairly uncontrollable) sustainer. I wonder though, why does the F/R need to be replaced? If you go much more basic (no preamp, etc.) then wouldn't the amp be too weak (a.k.a. a lone ruby driving a sustainer? I just would like to know why no one here seems to think the F/R is adequate, since I have no idea myself because the F/R is my only amp... Also -- about the effects, I didn't think you could change the waveform / vibration type of the strings (say like square to sin curve, or whatever) but it would be cool if you could now that you mention it..... The effects I think would be very cool as a PRE to the F/R (since it would be impractical to run out to a box and loose a lot of the sustainer amp's power over the long trip) and I think some reverb / delay / digital sustain / flanger (flanging harmonics) would be beneficial IF they could be controlled. Some major experimenting would have to be done to really get a sort of 'standardized controling strategy', but I im going to (eventually, once the guitar is done and I get the Slash Crybaby Wah) try hooking a to Wah up to my digital effects processor (Digitech RP100) as a 'Flange Controller' so I can actively control the full range of harmonics on the fly. -MRJ STUDIOS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted May 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 I wonder though, why does the F/R need to be replaced? If you go much more basic (no preamp, etc.) then wouldn't the amp be too weak (a.k.a. a lone ruby driving a sustainer? I just would like to know why no one here seems to think the F/R is adequate, since I have no idea myself because the F/R is my only amp... The F/R is adequate and probably as simple as one could go. However, I do think there are times when the extra components to the LM386 circuit to avoid internal oscillation are probably worthy...they are specified on the chipc data sheet for high amp applications like these. You will always need some kind of preamp although, EMG users and active guitars may find their preamps to be adequate to do without. The complexity of this preamp depends on what you want from the device to some degree. Col's circuit with an internal feed forward compressor is an example of a preamp with increased functionality and control. I use a preamp with more gain and filters for very high frequencies. The fetzer uses a transistor that requires biasing that some find confusing. An opamp preamp may be an easier and more versitile solution. The idea is really to make it a little more modular with the preamp in the control cavity and the poweramp with the driver or perhaps in the trem cavity...You could still do this of course with the F/R circuit by separating off the fetzer from the ruby portions but you would still require the harmonic switch and driver leads to go both bak and forth from the power amp. Having a more modular approach allows for some more experimentation. I am considering a different BTL type poweramp with a little more power instead of the LM386 and would like to swap out various preamps and such in the future I am sure, like col's. This makes for a project that can develop over time... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Ok, that makes more sense PSW. Modular is a very good idea. We (all) should find some sort of computer male/female plastic multiple wire coupler that is readilly availible and use it for ALL connections, so different PRE / POWER / DRIVER combinations could be simple plugged in and not have to be soldered every time. -MRJSTUDIOS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Hola a todos os subo algunas fotos de lo ultimo que he hecho. bobina cuadruple de 13,5 ohmios cada una con hilo de 0,1 mm. La bobina funciona perfectamente en la posicion media y cabe en la cavidad de una single coil. Saludos Hi all, I just wanted to congratulate Juán and others with the fruit of the last few weeks of development, and apologize for my absence. But I am not receiving notifications of new posts - moderators please take note. While my contribution may be possible to substitute with the use of Bablefish and other such online translation software, the finer points of Juán's posts are likely to get lost, as was the case previously, so it is to everone's advantage that I do receive notifications of new posts, as once the quantity piles up so that there is a backlog I cannot be expected to then go back and translate and interpret all of them. In this case, the previous post was self explanatory, but as you will recall many of Juán's explanatory posts have been pretty verbose, as would be the case with a full explanation of the process that went into producing this latest quadruple coil driver - by the way I don't know whether you all picked up on the fact that Juán is saying that not only does the driver fit in a normal s/c rout, but that it works perfectly in the middle p/up position. And unless my eyes are deceiving me, it also looks as though he has succeeded in combining the driver with a stacked humbucker type s/c, and if that is the case, then he has cracked it! Given that in his last contribution he presented a fully working dual coil driver of extremely small dimensions, I really think he deserves much of the merit for the experimentation now being undertaken by several others....so you might like to also consider his circuitry designs, as unlike others, who are basing their circuits on what is most commonly available, Juán has the electronics expertise to experiment with circuits that are not so commonly used, which is also why he favours the 6v circuits and is therefore also able to drastically minimize the real estate used by the pcbs. That certainly aids in the design of modular and plugin type prototypes, and probably will also bring us closer to Pete's ideal of a modular device that could actually be mounted inside a p/up cover, circuitry and all... David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted May 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 I think you will find that Juan has made a side coil driver with three coils on saw blade coils with outer blades that provide a degree of magnetic sheilding and does not work as a pickup/stacked or otherwise. I'd like to know more about the wire guage, individual coil ohms and magnetic arrangement. It looks in large part similar to Fernandes old side coil designs as in their patents discussed before.... We know that a mid coil driver is possible, Sustainiac has a patent on it, and Dizzy (see the sounds thread linked below) posted a very convincing device and sound file with a bi-lateral device. We also know that some very radical designs will work, consider my hex designs... This is what we were looking at with this approach, a very compact device, surface mounted and it involved NO coil winding and very low magnetic pull dispite 12 high powered neodyminium magnets. With practice this was taken further... to include 5 leds without increasing the size of the device... This one even had provision for momentary switching to the side and was a chain of six of these devices... This one worked between the mid and bridge pickups on a single coil strat without bypass and within 2cm of each of them (but only on a single string in prototype stage)... The complexity of the wiring can be seen here though.... and so these were some of the last of the "Hex" designs I pursued.... Above is my prototyping for the box idea based on Tim's inspiring designs... Between us we had concieved and built a sensitivity knob that pushed in to provide momentary control and a practical and stylish implemetation of the device and it's controls in a low mod surface mounted box, housing the circuitry and battery... So, you see a broad range of ideas have been explored and, while I was actively making these things (I haven't now done anything for over two years) a lot of ground was covered... The difference now is that people are fleshing out the technical ideas a little more, doing the experiments that I should or would have done (dual coil drivers) and done the work and thought to make preamp compression practical... What I would like to see more of is that conceptual and implementation ideas that was so inspiring when Tim (onelastgoodbye) first came to us. Having faith that it is possible to make such things, how is it to be implemented...lots of scope there beyond the technical... Also, we should not forget what this is all for...I'd love to hear some music that exploited the device to good effect, the ultimate encouragement for people to make the commitment to build one of these things... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeppelinchld Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 did that hex pickup ever work and how? i would love to try to make one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 PSW -- maybe I am dumb, but did you say that a coil-less driver actually is possible? What are the physics of that thing?? Wow!! You just went way beyond me, but I'm sure you'll be able to explain it well and in simple terms in your usual fashion. About the musical aspect...... My album should be coming out sometime near the end of this summer or sometime in the fall. It is a group of studio musicians that aren't really a band, but we make a lot of noise.... It's almost better not having a 'band' because you can be much more flexible and have better variety. The album will have 2 or 3 different singers, me on guitar with 3 of my friends taking lead or solos every once in a while, 2 different drummers (possibly at once), and 2 bass players. And that is just the core 'band.' I will hopefully be using my sustainer on a few solos, and 1 song will have the sustainer on the whole time. All of the guitar parts will be played on my hand-built custom made electric guitars (score one for guitar builder/innovators like you guys!!) Unfortunately, I have only had time to record 1 song so far (and it is not done) and write out 3 others. Whenever I get the 'singles' finished, I'll pick a few to use as my album promo songs and I'll leave the link to my YOUTUBE channel here so you all can hear 'em. Once the thing is published you will be able to get the CD thru iTunes, Rhapsody, BestBuy.com, etc. so if you like it, you can buy it. There will definitely be a thank you in the Album booklet thanking this forum and specifically some of its members -- I'll contact you for your real names (if you'd like the credit) when I am ready to publish. Thanks again, -MRJSTUDIOS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avalon Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 Also, we should not forget what this is all for...I'd love to hear some music that exploited the device to good effect, the ultimate encouragement for people to make the commitment to build one of these things... pete To true Here is a cover i did of Deep Purples "Lazy" about a week ago, a part in the intro uses the sustainer, but handheld as a feedback device: http://www.snapdrive.net/files/419102/Lazy_By_Avalon.mp3 It was great to work something into a song that would of otherwise been impossible without the development you guys have all put in here, so a big thank you to you all Not got alot done on any of my other Sustainer projects yet, i've got the supplies for some new coils (going to try 0.16mm wire, thanks for the info on those Col ), and 1mm steel at hand now if needed thanks to Joes idea, cheers mate Also finally picked up a set of 11-49 guage strings, so i can give the drivers a proper test, i'll keep you posted on how that anything go's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 To true Here is a cover i did of Deep Purples "Lazy" about a week ago, a part in the intro uses the sustainer, but handheld as a feedback device: Sounds great - nice cover version, nice harmonic feedback Not got alot done on any of my other Sustainer projects yet, i've got the supplies for some new coils (going to try 0.16mm wire, thanks for the info on those Col ), and 1mm steel at hand now if needed thanks to Joes idea, cheers mate Also finally picked up a set of 11-49 guage strings, so i can give the drivers a proper test, i'll keep you posted on how that anything go's. Please remember that the latest developments in driver ideas, parallel wiring of 16 ohm coils and using finer wire guages are as yet unproven ideas. Go ahead and try them out, but don't be too dissapointed if the results are the same or worse than what you already have. cheers Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted May 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 (edited) did that hex pickup ever work and how? i would love to try to make one. Sorry, long term followers of this thread that I feel the "technology" to make the Hex designs were and remain a secret. Even if you knew, they were difficult to construct as a lot of delicate soldering with a magnifying glass, epoxy/metal coatings, aluminium casings and the like... Yes they did work and combined all that I could think of to limit EMI with the pickups and to make something as compact as possible to enable surface mounting. The ones like those pictured, even with the lights, were 4mm wide by 4mm deep, which is pretty small considering what is in them (6 electromagnetic "elements" and twelve carefully arranged high powered magnets, soldered and set in an iron epoxy mixture and then, molded into an aluminium exoskeleton...the lights were extra)... Two things...they were way to complicated for DIY, but then I had hoped for a breakthrough...and I discovered that the major contributor to the low EMI was their small size...this became the principle for the "thin driver" design of our more conventional sustainers presented here. This is itself a major departure from the commercial crop of devices based on pickup dimensions... OK...so I don't want to disclose exactly how it is done because I don't think I have necessarily mined the concepts for all they are worth... PSW -- maybe I am dumb, but did you say that a coil-less driver actually is possible? What are the physics of that thing?? Wow!! Here's a clue, read this again... This is what we were looking at with this approach, a very compact device, surface mounted and it involved NO coil winding and very low magnetic pull dispite 12 high powered neodyminium magnets. I did try winding miniture coils around steel rivets for some designs but this became too frustrating...then I had a brain wave and...that's as much as I can say... The thing is, I created a "balanced magnetic field" with these magnets that was very localised and powerfull, then used these tiny "electromagnetic elements" to upset this balance, causing the string to be pulled about by the imbalance of the magnetic fields. I built one for each string hoping to tune their responses to each individual strings characteristics (mass, tension and ferro magnetic content). Because I had six "elements, I could so arrange them so that any EMI from these tiny "elements" would be counteracted by the driver next to it, as if 3 miniture Humbucker pairs, and that, as each "driver" only needed to drive it's own string, less power would be required for each one... That's the general jist of it... There were numerous versions and posts up to the page 30's or so will see that I was making many different versions, at first single string drivers, then later the Hex versions when they showed promise. They did work, but there are problems also. They weren't without EMI, so some of the problems we experience was still there (however I was way too nieve and ambitious that I thought I could completely overcome this for a completely no mod, non bypassing device). They also had a very strange effect relating to alignment. The strings needed to be carefully aligned so the device had to be made specifically for that string spread...but, bending the strings caused some problems...hmmmm My solution was hoped to be to get the thing so efficient that I could incorporate it into the bridge, using the mass of the bridge to absorb the excess EMI and to overcome the alignment and string bending problems. It would also be aesthetically cool and perhaps the circuit and such could also be surface mounted in a box such as those devised by me, Tim or Emre... As it happened I was also trying to develop a new kind of mechanical strat bridge/tremolo which would enable multiple tunings... You will probably see that I got somewhat obsessed with a lot of projects and was probably compensating for a boring job and other disatisfactions in life...Not A Good Plan People, be warned... I abandoned the Hex stuff when I got sick of the questions and suggestion that these things were a fake. After I posted some preliminary bad recordings, they were (rightly) criticised for sound quality and distortions... I sent a single string driver to Lovecraft and explained exactly how it was done and he confirmed for you all that it did work and was sound in principle, but that didn't really help the situation... I figured with all the work I had done, I could make a sustainer, I just couldn't make the ultimate sustainer that I was seeking...yet. So, I built the thin driver and then pickup driver combo and ever since, this has become the basis for the DIY sustainer. There may still be something in the concepts within the hex devices, so I don't want to discuss the specific details of how it was done. The above explanation could give enough clues for people to perhaps work it out or something similar (there were many versions...I was building more than one prototype a week at this point)... I never did complete the experiments and have learn't a lot since. This one for instance... This cleary shows how even back then I was looking at using the pickup in combination with the driver and to mount it in the mid position. It is quite likely this would have worked properly, had I disconnected the mid pickup completely as it's problems were symptomatic of those encountered with improperly bypassed coils with my present conventional pickup/driver and since solved by completely isolating the pickup coil... I still have the components (I had to buy some in bulk as I was going through a few and they were easy to damage and hard to get) that were at the heart of the device and may at some stage try to work out a few more ideas...for "fun"...but this kind of long term experimentation is insanely frustrating and time consuming and more hope is probably available with our conventional coil designs... About the musical aspect...... Nice one Avalon... That's great...that's just the kind of thing I want to hear; that this thing is being used and people enjoy not only the ideas but playing with the device...and that it may open a few creative doors...that's the general idea after all! My last post really was a response to a personal message where in I felt I should clarify how much had already been explored in this thread and where I am coming from. Sometimes it all needs to be put into a little perspective. Much as people have made significant efforts to improve upon the ideas, they are still the same problems, no matter the solutions. In essence the basic idea is simple and patents show that people have sought to do this by various means for literally over a hundred years! The above piano sustainer patent is dated 1892!!! All we can hope to do is refine the details. The basic principles of these refinements, whether multiple EMI cancelling coils of various types or magnetic shielding or coil orientation, are all well understood. It is the correct combination that breeds to success, in that regard I got lucky, but only after a lot of tries. It is only through the encouragement of guys like you that kept me at it, otherwise I am sure I would have given up...everyone needs and audience... The real success of all this has been in the thread itself and the exchange of ideas...the sustainer is a bonus... Now, back to sustainer land... pete Edited May 3, 2007 by psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 did that hex pickup ever work and how? i would love to try to make one. Sorry, long term followers of this thread that I feel the "technology" to make the Hex designs were and remain a secret. Even if you knew, they were difficult to construct as a lot of delicate soldering with a magnifying glass, epoxy/metal coatings, aluminium casings and the like... Yes they did work and combined all that I could think of to limit EMI with the pickups and to make something as compact as possible to enable surface mounting. The ones like those pictured, even with the lights, were 4mm wide by 4mm deep, which is pretty small considering what is in them (6 electromagnetic "elements" and twelve carefully arranged high powered magnets, soldered and set in an iron epoxy mixture and then, molded into an aluminium exoskeleton...the lights were extra)... Two things...they were way to complicated for DIY, but then I had hoped for a breakthrough...and I discovered that the major contributor to the low EMI was their small size...this became the principle for the "thin driver" design of our more conventional sustainers presented here. This is itself a major departure from the commercial crop of devices based on pickup dimensions... OK...so I don't want to disclose exactly how it is done because I don't think I have necessarily mined the concepts for all they are worth... PSW -- maybe I am dumb, but did you say that a coil-less driver actually is possible? What are the physics of that thing?? Wow!! Here's a clue, read this again... This is what we were looking at with this approach, a very compact device, surface mounted and it involved NO coil winding and very low magnetic pull dispite 12 high powered neodyminium magnets. I did try winding miniture coils around steel rivets for some designs but this became too frustrating...then I had a brain wave and...that's as much as I can say... The thing is, I created a "balanced magnetic field" with these magnets that was very localised and powerfull, then used these tiny "electromagnetic elements" to upset this balance, causing the string to be pulled about by the imbalance of the magnetic fields. I built one for each string hoping to tune their responses to each individual strings characteristics (mass, tension and ferro magnetic content). Because I had six "elements, I could so arrange them so that any EMI from these tiny "elements" would be counteracted by the driver next to it, as if 3 miniture Humbucker pairs, and that, as each "driver" only needed to drive it's own string, less power would be required for each one... That's the general jist of it... There were numerous versions and posts up to the page 30's or so will see that I was making many different versions, at first single string drivers, then later the Hex versions when they showed promise. They did work, but there are problems also. They weren't without EMI, so some of the problems we experience was still there (however I was way too nieve and ambitious that I thought I could completely overcome this for a completely no mod, non bypassing device). They also had a very strange effect relating to alignment. The strings needed to be carefully aligned so the device had to be made specifically for that string spread...but, bending the strings caused some problems...hmmmm My solution was hoped to be to get the thing so efficient that I could incorporate it into the bridge, using the mass of the bridge to absorb the excess EMI and to overcome the alignment and string bending problems. It would also be aesthetically cool and perhaps the circuit and such could also be surface mounted in a box such as those devised by me, Tim or Emre... As it happened I was also trying to develop a new kind of mechanical strat bridge/tremolo which would enable multiple tunings... You will probably see that I got somewhat obsessed with a lot of projects and was probably compensating for a boring job and other disatisfactions in life...Not A Good Plan People, be warned... I abandoned the Hex stuff when I got sick of the questions and suggestion that these things were a fake. After I posted some preliminary bad recordings, they were (rightly) criticised for sound quality and distortions... I sent a single string driver to Lovecraft and explained exactly how it was done and he confirmed for you all that it did work and was sound in principle, but that didn't really help the situation... I figured with all the work I had done, I could make a sustainer, I just couldn't make the ultimate sustainer that I was seeking...yet. So, I built the thin driver and then pickup driver combo and ever since, this has become the basis for the DIY sustainer. There may still be something in the concepts within the hex devices, so I don't want to discuss the specific details of how it was done. The above explanation could give enough clues for people to perhaps work it out or something similar (there were many versions...I was building more than one prototype a week at this point)... I never did complete the experiments and have learn't a lot since. This one for instance... This cleary shows how even back then I was looking at using the pickup in combination with the driver and to mount it in the mid position. It is quite likely this would have worked properly, had I disconnected the mid pickup completely as it's problems were symptomatic of those encountered with improperly bypassed coils with my present conventional pickup/driver and since solved by completely isolating the pickup coil... I still have the components (I had to buy some in bulk as I was going through a few and they were easy to damage and hard to get) that were at the heart of the device and may at some stage try to work out a few more ideas...for "fun"...but this kind of long term experimentation is insanely frustrating and time consuming and more hope is probably available with our conventional coil designs... About the musical aspect...... Nice one Avalon... That's great...that's just the kind of thing I want to hear; that this thing is being used and people enjoy not only the ideas but playing with the device...and that it may open a few creative doors...that's the general idea after all! My last post really was a response to a personal message where in I felt I should clarify how much had already been explored in this thread and where I am coming from. Sometimes it all needs to be put into a little perspective. Much as people have made significant efforts to improve upon the ideas, they are still the same problems, no matter the solutions. In essence the basic idea is simple and patents show that people have sought to do this by various means for literally over a hundred years! The above piano sustainer patent is dated 1892!!! All we can hope to do is refine the details. The basic principles of these refinements, whether multiple EMI cancelling coils of various types or magnetic shielding or coil orientation, are all well understood. It is the correct combination that breeds to success, in that regard I got lucky, but only after a lot of tries. It is only through the encouragement of guys like you that kept me at it, otherwise I am sure I would have given up...everyone needs and audience... The real success of all this has been in the thread itself and the exchange of ideas...the sustainer is a bonus... Now, back to sustainer land... pete Hey Pete, thank you for taking the time and trouble to bring us all up to date with the development of the sustainer with all of its various forms of implementation. Excellent resumé and excellent work...... The idea of going back to the first prototypes patented reminds me of perhaps the greatest inventor of our times, Nicola Tesla - I wonder how he might have set about the design of a sustainer? I have been accumulating much information of his in recent months, amongst which are a video series of German language documentaries - unfortunately a language in which I am seriously limited. I wonder whether some of his ideas might not be possible to implement in this field? Now I am being serious.....after all, much of his work involved experimentation with magnetic fields, coils and capacitors, and this seems to be what we too are dealing with to a different end. Might sound pretty off the wall, like most of my ideas, but hey, you never know what such ideas might trigger in the minds of those who unlike me can understand such concepts.....makes me sometimes wish I had been born with more of a technical bent and less that of an artist..... Perhaps a Tesla coil based sustainer that had the side effect of rearranging time as we know it? Only a joke, obviously, but you just never know what we might come up with! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avalon Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 Not got alot done on any of my other Sustainer projects yet, i've got the supplies for some new coils (going to try 0.16mm wire, thanks for the info on those Col ), and 1mm steel at hand now if needed thanks to Joes idea, cheers mate Also finally picked up a set of 11-49 guage strings, so i can give the drivers a proper test, i'll keep you posted on how that anything go's. Please remember that the latest developments in driver ideas, parallel wiring of 16 ohm coils and using finer wire guages are as yet unproven ideas. Go ahead and try them out, but don't be too dissapointed if the results are the same or worse than what you already have. cheers Col I won't be mate, im going to try the last Dual Rail driver i made tonight with the thicker strings before i build any more coils, but when i do get to some more coils it will be interesting to see what changes it makes to it, good or bad, i'll let you know how it go's though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 I definitely believe that you built a working hex -- and you should keep its design secret. (I didn't realize you invented it, I thought it was a more commonplace concept before...) I am still amazed at the crap you come up with and build!!! It is really cool stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted May 6, 2007 Report Share Posted May 6, 2007 So, summer is upon me, which means loads of free time. I'd love to revamp the sustainer I built a year ago. Would anyone care to point me towards the pages where some of the more recent and promising tweaking has taken place? I would especially like to revamp my amp, i.e. build something different. Any help would be great! I'll be reading through this thread tomorrow when its not quite as late (if I started now, I'd be up till 4AM!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avalon Posted May 6, 2007 Report Share Posted May 6, 2007 Well, as far as the drivers go, you might want to try a Dual Rail humbucker, as per the Juans design a couple of pages ago, i've just been testing mine on a new set of 11-49 strings, and it sustains them all lovely in the neck position of my 24 fret guitar. I've got it temp mounted on a baseplate i made to fit the hole and mounting surround the pickup usually fits in, adjusted the height so that its as close to the stings as possible without them actually touching when pressed down on the 24th fret, and im really pleased with how it sounds. Harmonic mode is the only slight down side, this only works on the thicker strings, but its early days yet. Juans design is two 13.5ohm coils side-by-by, Dual Rail style, wired in parallel, with 1mm steel cores (mine has 2mm steel cores), one core with the north pole of the magnet touching, the other core with the south. Pics of both Juans and mine can be found only a few pages back, it seems a solid design. I'll be posting some more pics and some sound samples this week of the sustainer in action, and a big thanks again to everyone working on this project, i wouldn't of had a hope in hell of getting this far without this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted May 6, 2007 Report Share Posted May 6, 2007 Thanks for the tip, Avalon. I assume you are using a standard LM386 amp to power it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avalon Posted May 6, 2007 Report Share Posted May 6, 2007 (edited) Pretty much, i just have a couple of alterations from Pete's "Champ" circuit included, so it looks like this: But its not much different, i'll probably add a phase switch onto the board before long to save on having to add one to each version of the driver i try (plus it will be needed once im certain of the design im going to install). Edited May 6, 2007 by Avalon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted May 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2007 Hey Primal...good to see you back...here is a quote from page 150 that details col's circuit design that is perhaps the next step in circuitry and something that would probably really suit you...and I know he wants someone to replicate it...check it out (the little pink arrow will take you back to that part of the thread)... Here's an updated layout and schematic ................................................................... switch connections: e is the output from the input buffer/amp d is the input to the mode op-amp the mode connections are as follows: normal e connected to a1 d connected to a2 mixed 1 e connected to c2 d connected to c1 mixed 2 e connected to e2 d connected to e1 full harmonic e no connection d connected to b1 ...................................... Notes There now should be 38 track cuts, so count them and find the hidden ones you missed You might find that its a bid of a squeeze getting all the components to fit together on the board - thats one of the problems of trying to minimise the footprint - it is possible to get it all to fit without extreme measures as long as you use sensible component sizes. I switched the 1u cap (C5 on the layout) to a tantalum, and it did seem to improve things ever so slightly, but don't worry its not a big difference - could just have been my imagination. ...................................... Mods as before plus - remove R29 and connect a 50k pot in its place - this _may_ give control over which harmonics are generated by mixed mode 1... as yet untested. OK, now the schematic I changed a resistor in the feedback for the input op-amp... the rest of the changes are the mode switching - I used a 2 pole 6 way, with its stop ring set to only allow 5 positions position 1 is no-drive, 2 is normal, 3 is mixed1, 4 is mixed 2 and 5 is full harmonic. here it is So,,,what col has designed, and I'm sure he can explain more, is a preamp with compression to provide more control and predictability and 4 modes using a rotary switch. The amp is the LM386 attached to this preamp as a separate module. He drives a dual coil driver. You could try this with your existing driver. The circuitry is one thing, but the heart of the project and the solution to problems still relies on the driver itself. Dual coil systems are being developed by several people to address EMI and distortion problems. For those who came late® Primal's Sustainer Guitar is a Les Paul with the driver made from one of the bobbins of the neck HB. As a result the neck pickup does not really work as half a HB is a little weak to be that useful. Recent developments have seen some very compact dual coil drivers that could be built next to a mini HB so that you could get the functionality of the neck pickup back, if that is the way you'd like to go... I imagine that you would have room in a LP to fit this circuit and battery and with the four knobs, you alradey have space for a rotary switch to take advantage of col's developments... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onelastgoodbye Posted May 6, 2007 Report Share Posted May 6, 2007 Another ACG....I made stripboard schematic of zfrittz6's agc circuit featured on page 153. It is similar in fuction to Col's circuit, but based on the (unfortunately, rare) TDA7284. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted May 6, 2007 Report Share Posted May 6, 2007 (edited) Hey Primal...good to see you back...here is a quote from page 150 that details col's circuit design that is perhaps the next step in circuitry and something that would probably really suit you...and I know he wants someone to replicate it...check it out (the little pink arrow will take you back to that part of the thread)... ............. Yes, it would be good to have someone test this. Since this schematic was posted, I have made a few little changes to the circuit - mostly in the harmonic mode circuitry. As it is here, it should work ok, but the latest version is certainly a bit better. If anyone is serious about recreating this circuit, I could try and dig out some more up to date diagrams. So,,,what col has designed, and I'm sure he can explain more, is a preamp with compression to provide more control and predictability and 4 modes using a rotary switch. The amp is the LM386 attached to this preamp as a separate module. He drives a dual coil driver. You could try this with your existing driver. Yes, its basically: preamp -> mode filters -> AGC -> poweramp I have a feeling that it may be difficult to get the same results that I have with this circuit without at least going fo ra basic dual rail driver - using an AGC with a basic single coil driver is likely to be very sensitive to squeal. The circuitry is one thing, but the heart of the project and the solution to problems still relies on the driver itself. Dual coil systems are being developed by several people to address EMI and distortion problems. It's interesting that we make such a distinction between the circuit and the driver - really it is all circuit, the driver and pickup are 'just' 2 more electronic components in the circuit. This way of thinking is what helped me to better understand the system as a whole. Hence thoughts about feed forward vs feedback, and other stuff related to harmonic modes and also how action is as important as string guage in deciding the success of the system. ==================================== Another ACG....I made stripboard schematic of zfrittz6's agc circuit featured on page 153. It is similar in fuction to Col's circuit, but based on the (unfortunately, rare) TDA7284. It would be interesting to have a go of one of those TDA7284 chips - it's nice and simple with lower voltage.... there's that built in switch that we might be able to use for something, and also it would be interesting to see how this circuit worked with the harmonic mode switching from my most recent circuit. Adding the mode switching means we need an input buffer, we also need an op-amp for the mode switching, so we need at least an additional dual op-amp plus maybe 9 or 10 resistors, 4 extra caps, a trim pot and a big old 3 pole 4 way rotary switch. I would also like to be able to switch off the AGC for those moments when you need the wilder 'full on' vibe. One other detail worth experimenting with would be a switchable (or variable?) response time so we could have a very fast response - with a quite unnatural sound, but great feel and touch for swells and super-quick harmonics, great for richt hand and chord tapping etc... and a normal mode where the response is more like a loud amp, the sustainer would take longer before bringing in harmonics in this state. cheers Col Edited May 6, 2007 by col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 I spent the entire day today fabricating some cores and bobbins to make a dual rail driver. Rather than go with the smaller drivers everyone else is making, I'm building this driver to just completely replace the neck humbucker. How have the driver details, especially with the dual rail drivers, changed? Avalon mentioned two ~13 ohm coils wired in parallel for a total of ~6.75 ohms. Has anyone experimented with two ~4 ohm coils wired in series for ~8 ohms as per the original single coil? I've got a neat little core/magnet arrangement that would yield a dual rail driver the size of a single coil. However, there isn't enough space to fit two 13 ohm coils, but would likely have plenty of room for two ~4 ohm coils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Could someone please post a standardized but very detailed diagram or set of pictures on how to build a dual-coil driver? Or a tutorial? I think more people, including me, would help you all experiment with this type of thing -- if we knew a (tentative) "sure fire" way to build it. Also, that F / R or slightly modded F / R layout could be used to power a dual-coil driver right? (In otherwords, could all of us with older single coil designs could use our same 9v amps to power the new driver by just plugging the new one in?) Thanks -MRJ STUDIOS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 I spent the entire day today fabricating some cores and bobbins to make a dual rail driver. Rather than go with the smaller drivers everyone else is making, I'm building this driver to just completely replace the neck humbucker. How have the driver details, especially with the dual rail drivers, changed? Avalon mentioned two ~13 ohm coils wired in parallel for a total of ~6.75 ohms. Has anyone experimented with two ~4 ohm coils wired in series for ~8 ohms as per the original single coil? I've got a neat little core/magnet arrangement that would yield a dual rail driver the size of a single coil. However, there isn't enough space to fit two 13 ohm coils, but would likely have plenty of room for two ~4 ohm coils. Two 4 ohm coils wired series works very well, much better than a single coil driver. The hope (as yet unproven) is that two 16ohm (or 13.5ohm) wired in parallel will generate less unwanted EMI so provide a better candidate for use as a middle position driver. Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onelastgoodbye Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Could someone please post a standardized but very detailed diagram or set of pictures on how to build a dual-coil driver? Or a tutorial? Here's how I built mine, the magnet lies flat on it's side and sits inbetween the two cores so one core is S, the other N. the width of the magnet will determine much of the maximum size of the coils...winding the coils is basically the same as for a single driver, you just wind them to half the resistance (4 ohms), then connect them in series. OR you wind em both to 13,5 -16 ohms and connect them in parallel. The final resistance will amount to 8 ohms in both cases, so you can still use the fetzer-ruby or whatever you used before. pretty straightforward and no more difficult than a single driver. Now, IF you want to build them as small as I did you'll need a jig to clamp up the sides of the coils while the glue (epoxy) dries. that's a bit harder Something like this if you want to get real fancy>>> this illustrates the basic idea: shot from above, you can see how the coil is 'compacted' Ok, here is the link that details it all.. only took 20 mins of skimming the thread to find it lol : http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...st&p=295150 Pete, I'll PM you tonight about maybe doing a write-up of the thread and tutorial stuff... it's getting a bit out of hand; can't even find my own posts anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avalon Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 (edited) I spent the entire day today fabricating some cores and bobbins to make a dual rail driver. Rather than go with the smaller drivers everyone else is making, I'm building this driver to just completely replace the neck humbucker. How have the driver details, especially with the dual rail drivers, changed? Avalon mentioned two ~13 ohm coils wired in parallel for a total of ~6.75 ohms. Has anyone experimented with two ~4 ohm coils wired in series for ~8 ohms as per the original single coil? I've got a neat little core/magnet arrangement that would yield a dual rail driver the size of a single coil. However, there isn't enough space to fit two 13 ohm coils, but would likely have plenty of room for two ~4 ohm coils. I haven't tried a Dual Rail with 2 x 4 ohm coils wired in serial, but i did test a stacked Humbucker with this design, although it worked quite well, better then the single coils, it was nowhere near as quite as the dual rail wired in parallel. Atm, i think side-by-side coils wired in parallel are the way to go, either in full humbucker or dual rail style. My next stop is to build a a standard Humbucker size driver (2x16omhs wired in parallel) for my test guitar (since the neck pickup is rubbish anyway) and see if its as effective as the dual rails. The reason im attracted to the Dual Rails (other then them being very effective) is the fact that my personal goal is to get one working in a middle position, as all my guitars (Tester aside) only have a neck and bridge pickup. Im also very interested in building Col's circuit, although im not sure when i'll find time atm, so i might have to come back to that, but excellent work on that mate As for building a Dual Rail, i haven't got any photos of the construction process (or time to take any atm), but here is abit of info on it. Most important thing is making it as two seperate coils, that fit back together when you're done, because its impossible to wind them joined. If you're using one magnet for the two cores, then this determines how far apart the cores are going to be, the north end of the magent should be touching 1 core, the south touching the other, which also means both your bobbings on the cores need to fit together to the other half. The other problem i found was that once you start getting near 10ohms, there is nowhere to put the glue for potting (i was using 0.20 wire and its the reason im going to try 0.16), so you have to make sure you winds are very good, and be compacting the coils as much as is humanly possible (without forcing the bobbings anywhere at the sametime). These were my main probs, and i'll try to make a little diagram when i get a minute, but in the meantime, best of luck Edited May 7, 2007 by Avalon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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