psw Posted November 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Hi to all the Sustainerites out there....I've got a little time at the local library to catch up so this may be a more typically long thread. I'm really hoping for a new computer and broadband access in the near future...priorities, lack of money etc... As for my own work, it's completely stalled...my ex has fairly bulldozed a lot of stuff so I'm working from memory with a lot of my comments. Still have the original sustainer strat with me though!!! I've got to say though that I'm really impressed with the attempts of late and the return of some forward thinking theoretical discussions coming forward...makes for a very entertaining and even longer thread!!!! So...BlueArk...and all recent discoverers of this thread...welcome and thanks for contributing.... I've spent the week reading this whole thread, till my eyes went all criss-crossed heh. Thanks for the compliments...really though, I'd discourage people from really going through all the blind alleys we went through in all the time this treads been running...you must be very keen! Have you ever thought about working for some bigger company's Research and Development? Since the way I see it, you, like most diy guitarists, are more interested in finishing the creation than in owning the license and stuff like that. Hmmm...well I am in Australia...but I'd certainly welcome any offers.... Some questions, of which I wasn't able to find the answers in the thread. 1) I got lost somewhere in the middle as to why you abandoned the hex x series drivers. Was it because of the string bending? Or was it that it is simply easier and that it works better in this magnetic coil method? 2) How do you split the signal? 1 goes to the driver and 1 goes to the output. Do you have a buffer before the split? I understand the Ruby amp circuit but I'm not sure how to connect it up to my guitar and still have an output to my output jack. It seems in Ansil's circuit, he just takes the output from the pickup and directs it into the amp. So pickup --> output and pickup --> amp. Won't that cause any problems? I always thought you had to have a buffer before any splitting of a signal, instead of just using a Y cable, or the signal would be weaker, and the the 2 loads will affect each other. 3) What will happen if we wind the driver like an inductor? As in coiling the wire around the width of an object roughly the length of our pickups and with the thickness similar to what we've been working with (3-6mm) ← Good question(s) 1) Hex driver's Well...a good idea at the time. I came to the point where I was just trying too hard to do everything and was frustrated with the process...and a little jaded. I had already built many working circuits and just suddenly decided that I really needed to show the results of my efforts and to get more people involved for there to be any real progression. The Hex driver's were very small and did work but were not a project for your average DIY project. Basically, although there were six individual driver's I was still running them from a mono amp from conventional pickups. To really get the thing to be an advanced polyphonic system you are probably looking at hex amplification and hex pickup (probably piezio based). You're getting very advanced and expensive and would the results really warrant it. The string bending really was a bit of a problem...that mean't driving from the bridge...then you had problems with proximity to pickups. Also, some of them were made in the configuration you suggested in Q3 so I'll get to that, shortly. In esscence...the hex drivers were an attempt to address a multiple number of issues and really advance sustainer technology. Some of those were small size, use of any pickup selection, no mod technology that could sit on the guitar and be semi-removable...etc. The hex drivers allowed for a very small size. The experimentation was not wasted though as it lead to the very thin driver's advantages over conventional pickup-sized drivers, smaller conventional drivers, the pickup driver...and pof course all the amp stuff was directly transferable. This accounts for the sudden development of the current mono-coil thin driver as much of the knowledge and technology had already been explored and had been built. The main thing though was to make something that I could freely share with everyone, works well and could easily be made. And to that end it was quite a success I think...now I think I can rest on my laurels...unless as you say someone wants that work started back up again... 2) How do you split the signal? This is the necessity for the preamp. The pickup->amp remains as usual. The pickup->driver amp->driver is not loaded because of the driver amp's preamp section. This ensures that the pressence of the sustainer is transparent to the tone of the instrument. As an aside, I'd like to see the preamp permanently on and only the poweramp section switched in and out. This would help with pop problems (power always connected) and give the guitar an active control...bit like EMG's...but then would change the tone, but possibly for the better... 3) What will happen if we wind the driver like an inductor? Ok...a bit of a confession...some of my "secret" work including many of the hex drivers were wound this way. There really are some unusual effects of this arrangement. Instead of the mono-coil driver's one pole up/one pole down arrangement. This type of coil has N on one end and S on the other. Now we know that reversing polarity will cause a switch from harmonic to fundumental mode. On one end of this type of coil it will try to drive at harmonic and the other fundumental...at the same time. In the centre the effect will be cancelled out. To get the required effect you really need to have such a coil, twice the width of the strings (or more) and as the windings go over and under the core the size is at least thicker and necessary less close to the strings. Accepting that, your driver, if twice the width will have half of it's power working on no strings at all....hmmmm. Nevertheless, I continued to work on it, and with various different tiny multiple magnets you can compensate for it a little. Careful alignment, miniature construction and a lot of hair-loss later, you can get something promising with lower EMI...but then there's the string bending...oh it's so hard.... Hope my questions aren't too silly Nothing's too silly, 'til patience runs out.... Some nice work going on here...FoneBone, you may wish to encourage people with how easy it was to make the driver, I have a feeling that's what puts a lot of people off!!! First was too thick, but second is only 4mm. ← What's the core in that one, a magnet?? My driver's tended to have thinner 3mm steel blades. There is some thought (shared by me) that a thinner core will deal better with the higher frequencies and therefore closer vibration modes and harmonics of the higher strings...but that's just a theory, and I think it was Tim who suggested that a wider core may in fact be better...variation is the key to the evolution process. Great stuff all round...keep up the good work...fantastic stuff, can't encourage you all enough... All the best...psw Oh...out of time but I haven't forgoten eightstrings interesting post about pushing and pulling...I just haven't got the time this session to talk to this later...till then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoneBone Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 What's the core in that one, a magnet?? ← No, it's just a steel blade (62 x 12 x 4mm) and a wire of 0,2mm. The frames on the top and the bottom are from a cd-cover. I put it on top of my bridge-humbucker. Maybe this is the problem why it makes such noises?! FoneBone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 There is the 2SK170 at reichelt.de for 0,47€.Thanks, I'll check that out! Which version should I take BF245A, B, or C?It probably won't matter at all for this application. The A units are probably optimal for power supply conservation, but get whichever is cheapest - there should be plenty of adjustment built into the circuit to accomodate any of the three. HTH Pete, good to hear from ya! Hope your situation improves soonest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoneBone Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Okay, now I got a BF245A. But I'm not sure in which order the pins are. Fairchild says G S D, but Siemens and Philips say D S G. And I don't know, from which manufacturer my transistor is. Here is a little picture: Sorry for the bad quality! FoneBone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Fairchild says G S D, but Siemens and Philips say D S G. Same pinout, different pin numbering systems - see below: Just one more way your friendly semiconductor manufacturers are making the world a better place! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoneBone Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 It's always a question of view... my mistake, sorry And thanks a lot, lovekraft. FoneBone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 No worries - you can imagine how I figured it out. Sometimes I think the @#£¥!µ$ƒ tech writers do that stuff deliberately! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amplified Posted November 12, 2005 Report Share Posted November 12, 2005 Sorry to jump in the middle of the the thread like this, but let's suppose I have the following scenario: - The sustainer will be Model-C like, clamped to the headstock - I have the feedback signal that drives it coming out of a line-level, unbalanced output and I can pre-process (eq, distortion, phase invert, volume change) it in the chain before. So if I'm following I'd just need a very simple power amp (like Ansil's 386-based one in his piezo under the pickup circuit) to drive a small gutted 8 ohm speaker, right? Or I risk blowing up something due to mismatches? As for the questions: How do I remove the paper from the cone without destroying it, what must I do it afterwards (I've seen a pic with a coin glued to it?) and how do I clamp the magnet? Any tips? Thanks, FZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoneBone Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 (edited) Last night and a bit of today I've done a little work with the eagle layout program. Here are the results: Click on thumbnail... This is the complete board-circuit of the Fetzer-Ruby-schematic, plus the top- and bottom-view of it. S1-S2 are switches for power and mode J1-J4 are for the connection to battery, bridge-pu, driver, volume Maybe this is helpful. Enjoy it FoneBone Little Update: Click on thumbnail... On this board you only have to wire the bottom (except 1 on the top!) Edited November 13, 2005 by FoneBone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammy Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 Looks like a nice little board that - it's a hell of alot smaller than the fernandes ones! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathleflan Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 HI I would use this Core magnet : Can I use this core with these dimensions?? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoneBone Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 Can I use this core with these dimensions?? ← I think, it depends on the space between the strings and the body of your guitar. FoneBone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathleflan Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 which distance between strings and body do you recommend? I could Put the Enamel wire on the 5mm side, so as to reduce the height of the driver... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoneBone Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 It's necessary that the strings don't hit the driver while playing the guitar... the rest is try and error FoneBone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Hi, thanks LK, this situations going to take a lot of time I'm afraid...nice to see people are still keen here...started a monster thread here it seems... mathleflan Any mags probably ok but you have to have the poles up...not to the sides. I used something very similar stuck to the bottom of a 3mmx3mm steel cored coil. That's probaly the way to go...IMHO Oh...and a thin coil is the way to go...5mm max... FoneBone Wow...if I get back to this project you could do something for my new non-386 popless circuit....fantastic stuff... No, it's just a steel blade (62 x 12 x 4mm) and a wire of 0,2mm. The frames on the top and the bottom are from a cd-cover. I put it on top of my bridge-humbucker. Maybe this is the problem why it makes such noises?! Hmmm...yes,..well...you have to have some distance between the driver and the pickup. Generally the bridge PU drives it, the neck pickup/driver drives it. No neck PUp...just use a magnetised driver and your switching probs are kind of solved... Amplified Jump right in... I did some cutting up of speakers...very tricky...see if you can get some out of trashed computers or something...I wrecked a few!! I didn't have too much luck with them, I suspect the Sustainiac M-C uses a lot more power than our little circuits and a more powerful driver (it's mains powered!) from the floor box. If you wanted to do that you might need to use a hi-fi midrange driver or something...then it's going to be heavy...hmmmm I gave links to a guy who reckons that he worked it all out with the driver mounted on the body of the guitar. I was able to get some results with a small speaker, LM386/preamp, then the speaker attached cone down (with the cone un-cut) on to the face of the guitar...behind and below the trem bridge. I also tried it connected up to the bridge and the trem springs...a little too close to the pickups to avoid interferace...so a bit of a no go... Basically, try as I might, I couldn't quite get anything to "work", otherwise I'd have promoted it more...but I did try...I kind of avoided dwelling too much on the failures along the way...but I was hopefull for a while...feel free to try it though.. So if I'm following I'd just need a very simple power amp (like Ansil's 386-based one in his piezo under the pickup circuit) to drive a small gutted 8 ohm speaker, right? Or I risk blowing up something due to mismatches? Really, you do need the preamp to avoid loading the guitar's signal down (or an active guitar)...try the fetzer/ruby from the tute, or somethig similar... .....ANYWAY....I really want to see some of you guys tackle the whole interface/switching thing...My strat turned out to be mega-complex...and I've still got that pop. A dedicated sustainer guitar with a bridge pickup and a neck driver may really be the ultimate/easiest setup... time to run...psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2005 G'day...got myself a new PC and am in the process of reconnecting...anyway, missed you guys, but I'll be back...psw... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoneBone Posted November 19, 2005 Report Share Posted November 19, 2005 Here it is: The FRS777 1.0 (Fetzer-Ruby-Sustainer). The '777' is because I'm a big fan of Mr. Vai Top Bottom I'll hope I find the time to build this board. If there are any interests in taking a look at the schematic of this circuit, feel free to ask. FoneBone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoneBone Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 And here is the schematic: FoneBone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.G. Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 ... the coil can only pull and cannot push. ... The iron piece is not a magnet, it can be only attracted. The string is the piece of iron and the sustainer driver is the electromagnet. ... Well, when you send a ac signal to the driver,the negative cycles will pull just like the positive ones,so the the attraction force will look like the output of a bridge rectifier.Making the cycles to be twice as fast. I used to think that as well. It turns out that a coil driver can push AND pull, but it needs a magnet to do it. The coil by itself does pull only, and at double frequequency on the string. However, if there is a permanent magnet already pulling on the string, the coil can reinforce and cancel the magnet pull, so the coil "pushes" to the extent that it cancels the permanent magnet's field that's already pulling. And that's why drivers need permanent magnets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.G. Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Not reading the preceeding 72 pages, the question comes to mind - did anybody ever do my suggestion from Ampage, and rewind a neck pickup with about #24 wire to be a driver/pickup switchable? For sustain you drive it, and for pickup, you use an onboard transformer or high gain LOW input impedance preamp like a hifi moving coil preamp. Just curious. That seems easier than some of the permutations I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Hi R.G. ...good to have you drop in I used to think that as well. It turns out that a coil driver can push AND pull, but it needs a magnet to do it. Yeah...I was going to get back to this question...been away and distracted... I did some experiments with some similar ideas. I found a DIY effects circuit kit called a "Twang-o-matic" from Jaycar (supposed to sound like a dobro or something. Basically, it cuts out one side of the wave form by use of a transistor...don't have the details with me...it was a 12 volt thingy too but the idea could have been adapted... Instead, I tested the theory by utilizing diodes in the manner of a half black ice. Using it to cancel out one side... Anyway, after much thought and no better performance, I realized another problem...the constant (say) positive going current would tend to create a magnet of the steel which would vary with exposure to the power and possibly de-magnetize the internal permanent magnet. The reverse current through the coil actually helps to release the string and counter act this magnetising effect, letting the string go, then pushing it away. It in someway addresses the natural lag that limits the speed at which the thing will respond, causing the problems associated with the higher strings and high frequency notes. BTW...the thin driver concept seems to be the "best" (that I could come up with) to address this speed/lag problem without getting into complicated phase adjusting circuitry (as detailed in the patents). I did try pickup sized drivers and various wire guages...0.2mm just seemed to be best...though I can see why you might want to use thicker wire, it just didn't work out for me. The Sustainiac "Stealth+" driver does use an active preamp so as to use their driver as a PUp, and it sounds passable I believe. By the size of it, it may well be along those lines. My approach came from the idea of a low mod approach. By using a passive pickup/driver combination, the magnet is shared by both devices, there is little difference (if any) in tone from the neck PUp and there's no mod in fitting the driver as the pickup, it's cavity, etc is already there! The guitar is a stock passive device when not sustaining and there is some savings in power by this too. Now, I'd be thinking of having a unity gain buffer on at all times, making an active guitar as I think there could be other advantages to that in the difficulties involved in switching the device, etc. But then I'd also probably ditch all but the bridge pickup and have a dedicated sustainer guitar...it'd be a lot simpler. There is some mucking about in getting the device fitted and switched properly into the guitar. I had to use a 4PDT on the strat and I still get the pop on switch off...hmmmm. I was thinking that a buffer may address this "pop" thing as the power would always be connected to some active circuitry. So...no I don't know if anyone here tried it out but I had limited success with bigger (pickup sized) drivers... Thanks for bringing back this point though, I had mean't to get back to that post as it's all interesting brain food...and very much in the original speculative nature of this thread! I kind of think of the permanent magnet as a kind of biasing thing. It has a small pull on the string which is released or made stronger by the coil. However you look at it, you got to have something, but just about any kind of magnet or combinations of magnets will work if you get the polarity right (one pole up/other down)...just as you'd typically find in a pickup. I wonder what people think of a humbucker sized driver. I feel that a thin bladed driver (say 3mm) is a better bet. Intuitively, I'm thinking on higher pitched sounds where the string's physical waves are closer together, you're less likely to hit a node or anti-node and kill the vibration. An HB size would be quite a bit wider and may be trying to push and pull at the same time...if you can visuallise that. A driver working on the HB principle...opposite poles/opposite drives...is an attractive idea. DizzyOne from Aron's forum and featured here was a dual coil device but with one pole under the higher strings, and the other under the lower. As an aside, my HEX designs had 6 driving elements. Both Fernandes and Sustainiac use this principle...with the thin driver, I just wanted to keep it simple for DIYers and have something that worked...making a dual coil driver would be more than twice the effort IMHO. The attraction to this is that the parasitic EMI is reduced. As the coils are putting out equal amounts of both positive and negative EMI, this should greatly reduce the unwanted effect. By using a HEX version of this I was able to get the driver very compact and opperate reasonably close (withing 2cm) from the pickup. If people will recall, I wanted to mount it close to the bridge...but, hey, it's bad enough having to make one driver, let alone 6!!!! Still...anyone got any alternate theories on a HB sized driver??? Best wishes everyone.... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octafish Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 (edited) Ok this is long thread and I've read a lot of it. I must admit that some of the details seem to slipping from my grasp. PSW you seem sold on the idea of the thin driver and after all the work you've done I'm inclined to trust in what you say. What happens if this thin driver with magnet is mounted near/next to a neck pickup? To the pickup? To the efficiency of the sustainer? I'd like a sustainer guitar with a sometimes usable neck pup, is my only option a stacked pup/driver? BTW it doesn't matter what it looks like as long as its clean (no exposed wires) and it works. I'm looking at the tda2822 chip. I don't know about popping but according to the data sheets in bridged configeration (it is a stereo amp) it will deliver between 900mW to 1.3W into 8ohms from 6v. compared to the LM386's 700mW from 9v. The circuit requires a few more components than the 386 but is still compact. I will post results from this chip as soon as I have them. Thank you to everyone for the work you have done. Edited November 21, 2005 by octafish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblueark Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 The pickup->driver amp->driver is not loaded because of the driver amp's preamp section. This ensures that the pressence of the sustainer is transparent to the tone of the instrument. I'm sorry I'm not too well versed in electronics. Why does the preamp section prevent loading? Is it because of the 1Mohm at the input? And about the humbucking sustainer, it appears that the floyd rose sustainer I mentioned in my earlier post is using that. Here's the link to the site again:Kramer sustainer guitar Some interesting bits from that page: The pickup itself looked like a typical "blade" type unit (think X2N) with the electronics built into the body. The electronics of the guitar were listed as such: one volume, one tone, 3 way pickup switch, an LED for weak battery indication, sustainer on/off switch, and a 3-way sustainer function select which could be selected as, fundamental mode/harmonic mode/increased sensitivity harmonic mode. Many Sustainer guitars out there today you may find have the sustaining pickup/electronics removed and a regular humbucking pickup put in it's place. Reports are that the sustaining unit will fizzle out with age which is why many people will take them out and discard them and replace the pickup. Today, Fernandez makes a superior sustaining pickup that basically does the same thing and perhaps a bit better if you are looking to get your Sustainer back and working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Thanks for the pic BlueArk On that PUp/Driver, one side of the HB (with the writing on it) is the driver, the other half is the pickup (single coil). So, the driver is again of the (fairly) thin type. This was an early sustainer, the patent (F Rose) is one of the easier (less BS) to understand. octafish What happens if this thin driver with magnet is mounted near/next to a neck pickup? This is exactly what's going on here...a driver next to a pickup in an HB sized package.... Yeah, a separate driver is what most people do. A lot of guitars though just dont have the room between the neck and the neck pickup...or the space without routing...but some guitars do (strat types, for instance). As long as you don't have the neck pickup selected while the neck driver is in operation, all is well and there is no harm at all of having a separate driver next to a pickup... Yeah, there are a lot of amp chips that would work as well, probably better...the LM386 though is real common, cheap and easy to use...I'd be real keen to see some more exploration on the circuitry. All the amp chips I've found will require a preamp to preprocess the guitar's signal...for tech stuff, I'll have to defer to others...anyone (LK?). Thanks for contributing...hope that helps pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblueark Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 On that PUp/Driver, one side of the HB (with the writing on it) is the driver, the other half is the pickup (single coil). So, the driver is again of the (fairly) thin type. This was an early sustainer, the patent (F Rose) is one of the easier (less BS) to understand. Hmm ok I see. Oh could you answer this? I'm sorry I'm not too well versed in electronics. Why does the preamp section prevent loading? Is it because of the 1Mohm at the input? My exams are almost over and hopefully I am able to find shops which sell the parts I need for experimenting over here (Singapore). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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