Sustainer Ideas

[psw]

That's great, and a very interesting outcome. The impedances (resistance of the coil and the amp) are way out of wack and is probably why you need so much power (a couple of watts I suspect) but that it works so well is very interesting as is the EMI result...hmmm.

I do worry about the long term health of the pickups though....the wire is hair thin and it must be generating quite a bit of heat...eventually it must burn through like a fuse I suspect with that much power running through it, or the amp will overheat. Still, it works, that's for sure.

wich brings another question the rp6 was 12 volts A.C i have another 12 volt D.C power supply

could i remove the diodes and capacitor and make it A.C? i know that can be done but i dont want to

fry the rp6. they are both one and a half amps

There you go playing with hi-voltage again... You could try down at the local "cash-converters" (pawn shop), they usually have a box full of old apaptors for various things...such an adaptor was fairly common for old printers at one time.

For me...I think you could build two 4 ohm thin coils in a rail format on top of a pickup like this. The possibility then of using a small battery circuit like the ruby and with less power, even less EMI and maybe getting it into the mid position.

I was able to get my hex designs (6 coils effectively) within 2 cm of the bridge pickup at one stage but this type of design had it's own unique problems (mainly alignment) but did take the multi-coil approach to it's logical conclusion.

Be aware that part of the problem of offboard amplification is that you can get EMI in the lead by sending large speaker signals with the small guitar output signals in the same cable. There could be problems, but also rewards. Still, your experiments have been working out so far, try not to blow a fuse in the house!

pete

[spazzyone]

not at all. the impeances are correct one coil reads 7.8 the other is 7.9

i just rounded of to 16 and i use the 16ohm on the amp

its when i use the 4 or 8 that it does not work as good

and as far as heat the first two coils i made got hot as hell

after about 7-10 minutes. ive noodled with the rail combo for over 4 hours

and no heat "i was very shocked at this aspect myself"

now here is the kicker before this very post i double checked each coil for impedance

and when i rewired the pickup i only rememberd red as hot and black as ground

and could not remember the green and white so i just winged it now i get all

strings including high E all the way to the 22nd fret (wee hoo)

i also had to run a bridge ground as i got that famous single coil buzz

then it hit me. it was only buzzing with the bridge on coil cut.

the system does not seem to like series wireing from the bridge (freaky)

as all the comercial units recomend a "HOT" humbucker

but the one thing remains the G/B and high e strings go to harmonics

at about the 14 to 16th frets. everywhere else it just sustains

the other thing i discoverd is in the sustainiac patent.

when i put the pickup in the middle position i started to get EMI

not bad but it was there. so i tried putting differant things in between the two pickups

and a thin peice of steel thats almost like the two peices on the patent and it almost stoped it but to eliminate it i had to roll the guitars

volume back a notch or two wich also decreased the sustain effect

but ill try again when i get more rails because i use my neck pickup alot

ill put together a vid of how its all connected as a setup and more examples

of how good it works. P.S on that other vid my amp was barely turned up

as my neighbor was home and i have yet to crank it so im keeping my fingers

crossed that it sounds just as good as the low volume

and here is the add for the pickup

http://cgi.ebay.com/Guitar-Parts-MINI-BLAD...1QQcmdZViewItem

[psw]

No, no, no...the pickup is advertised as 14k ohms or 2x7k ohm coils...that's 14,000 ohms not 14!!!! That's a huge impedance mismatch....

Still, no denying it's working for you, but I am not sure if it isn't simply that you are slaming the pickups with that amp and eventually it may burn out or something. Still, then you'd have something to rewind as a driver, eh!

We haven't really explored the whole magnetic sheilding thing that much here (putting metal to contain the stray magnetic field signals) but I did use metallic putty and pure iron in epoxy in the hex designs (to hold them together) and planned to do something similar around the edges of my pickup combo also.

I'm not entirely convinced by the experiments but you certainly have some interesting results happening...hmmmm

pete

[spazzyone]

boy do i feel dumb as i forgot about the "K" in the equasion

and it's advertised at 14k but in reality its a little hotter

but the ad is correct in that it is pretty clean sounding

[onelastgoodbye]

I have dismantled my previous coils as I needed the magnets, it makes an interesting comparison.

the top coil is 0.3 mm wire, potted with pva WHILE winding. Note the loose inner windings

the mid coil is 0.3 mm wire, potted with epoxy mainly AFTER winding. Note the loose inner windings

the bottom coil is 0.2 mm wire, potted with epoxy WHILE winding. No loose windings and much smaller in size.

The pva is still a bit 'soft', while the epoxy is rock hard. I do believe any 'looseness' is detrimental for driver performance, so I would choose not to use pva if possible, though it's ease-of-use and wide availability are in it's favor.

For what it's worth, i've been working on a jiggymathingie for winding bobbinless blade drivers. here it is . We'll see how well it works

Tim

[psw]

Another fabulous contribution, and people who haven't seen his amazing guitar project should check it out...HERE

I have dismantled my previous coils as I needed the magnets, it makes an interesting comparison.

the top coil is 0.3 mm wire, potted with pva WHILE winding. Note the loose inner windings

the mid coil is 0.3 mm wire, potted with epoxy mainly AFTER winding. Note the loose inner windings

the bottom coil is 0.2 mm wire, potted with epoxy WHILE winding. No loose windings and much smaller in size.

The pva is still a bit 'soft', while the epoxy is rock hard. I do believe any 'looseness' is detrimental for driver performance, so I would choose not to use pva if possible, though it's ease-of-use and wide availability are in it's favor.

.....a jiggymathingie for winding bobbinless blade drivers. here it is . We'll see how well it works

Tim

To be fair though, the 0.3mm wire is a third bigger than the 0.2mm and is less able to conform to the shape. It also has a much larger amount of air in it due to the diameter of the wire and hence less surface to surface contact between the round windings...nevertheless...a very good point, well made.

I'll be very interested to see how this thingamajiggie-thingy works...hmmm

Anyway, this is a great illustration of something I've tried to get across but could use some emphisis and thought put into it...

Over at my driver making tutorial...HERE...

Now for winding...yes it is all done by hand. The white stuff is PVA woodworking glue which pots the coil and stops internal vibrations, this is applied before and during winding to make sure it gets into every space. As you go you will have to push some of the side windings in and make sure the ends don't get too tight and bend the bobbin up. You can see that the top is very thin and I used some cardboard and clamps to keep those ends down as it dried.

What I should have emphisised is that pushing in the sides while winding (and clamping down the top and the electricians tape wrape on my driver) all help to get the side windings less loose and limit the space.

This problem of really tight ends and loose middles is a universal problem in "elongated coils" such as those found in guitar pickups. It is one of the reasons that I recommend hand winding as a machine that spins in a circular motion, can not compensate for the tension differences. I tried for a while to work out a way of syncronising some kind of tension device for pickup winding while building my winding machine (if people would like to put there minds to this I'd be most interested) but for a device with as low turn count as this, hand is the better option anyway.

Meanwhile, this problem will always be present I fear, and this is a DIY project. PVA is adequate but is not a filler so the windings really need to be pushed in to limit gaps. I also used a woodwork PVA that dries pretty hard, but will still be pretty plasticy if there is any bulk left in the coil. Epoxies can be messy, difficult to work with and sometimes dangerous...so beware. Especially know how long you have to work with it and that it will cure completely.

I really like the bobbinless option and may try something like to try this in the future.

"Spazzy" has stimulated some ideas for a rail driver version of what I have in my guitar and in time, I may be able to act on them and produce a new version. One of the neat things about this project and my guitar is that It is pretty easy to swap out drivers or circuits in the same instrument...neato. This will give some valuable direct comparisons. For instance, I have a theory that a dual coil driver may have an effect or even eliminate some of my "pop" problems. We could also compare a single coil driver to a dual core driver with the same circuit and guitar. I could even relocate the driver (if the EMI is reduced enough) to the mid position perhaps...since it is a strat. Lot's of possibilities.

So...must run now...great stuff Tim...keep that thinking hat on guys...for now...pete

Edited August 30, 2006 by psw

[ebenezer shred]

psm told me to start posting here, so, here i am. im going to be building a prototype sustainer from a single coil pickup in a guitar with one humbucker and a volume control. my question is, how exactly do i send the signal from the humbucker to the driver? (through a fetzer/ruby amp section)

[spazzyone]

there are a few ways to do this

one would be to tap into the main hot going to the output jack

to the fetzer then back out to the driver

but some one else will chime in with more proper details "PSW" maybe?

i use a very differant setup than what has been posted so far but that is how mine i wired

well sorta. i split the signal from the cable into a two way splitter. then one goes to my main amp

the other to the driver amp.

[psw]

Ah, you found us ebenezer shred, welcome!

here's a diagram I used last time i explained this...

the bypass/on/off switch can get complicated. I found I had to use a 4pdt on the strat to bypass the other pickups. If you only have the bridge pickup in the guitar, you wont need to bypass anything so it will be simpler...just turn the circuit on!

Basically, what spazzy says is right. A direct line from the bridge pickup to the circuit, as well as, the present wiring to the controls and on to the output of the guitar. It is this split that nececitates the preamp particularly as without it the pickup will be loaded by having to drive both the circuit and the amp resulting in a very weak tone and loss of power, probably enough to stop the project working at such low volumes.

The sensitivity control (the volume in the fetzer / ruby circuit) is optional. I don't use it (even though I have one) but you might like to put a trim pot inside the guitar to adjust it to your pickups if it is particularly powerful, otherwise it can be left off and save putting a knob on the front of the guitar.

Read back a few pages and you will find the wiring diagrams for my bypass switch and Primal's Les Paul which is similar to your project. He wound a driver on one of a humbucker's bobbins and is so now effectively a single pickup guitar. Works great...check it out.

pete

[spazzyone]

added a new vid in the sustainer sounds thread

check it out and tell me what you think

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...mp;hl=sustainer

[ebenezer shred]

i want to make mine as simple as possible. do i need a phase switch? all i want is endless sustain. i don't care about that weird harmonic thing. and i don't need any of the controls for the fetzer/ruby besides the on/off switch? what switch would i use for that? and how would i split the signal? running two wires from the end of one wire? would you have a schematic for something very simple like this? (sorry for all the questions)

[psw]

Sure...you can leave off the phase switch and just wire the driver direct. (It is a great effect though)

If you only have the bridge pickup, just join the wires from the pickup to the circuit and have a switch to turn the power on and off, simple. You could always add stuff back in latter if you wanted.

No problem asking questions...that's why this thread is so long...and simple makes it most likely to succeed. Hope that helps... pete

[ebenezer shred]

do you have a perfboard layout for the amplifying section?or a pic of it? which kind of switch would i use for what i want?(for the on/off) would the schematic change for the fetzer ruby if i don't add the controls?and to split the wire do i just run two wires off the end of the wire i'm splitting? and i don't need a bypass right? so is that where my on off goes?

[psw]

do you have a perfboard layout for the amplifying section?or a pic of it?

I don't have a perfboard layout, but if you look back a bit you can see how others have done it. Perhaps Primal, or someone else who has made the Fetzer / Ruby can help you, or perhaps there is something over at runoffgroove.com that could help you (the originator of this circuit). I in fact use a different circuit which is a bit bigger and made on adapted printed circuit boards.

You can see various pics in the tutorial (galaga mikes) and a few others if you dig back a little. Here's one for instance that was made very small...

which kind of switch would i use for what i want?(for the on/off) would the schematic change for the fetzer ruby if i don't add the controls?

If you wire the driver directly to the output (speaker connection of the amp) you do not need a harmonic switch. You may need to reverse the wires if you happen to wire it up in harmonic mode though. You can omit the offboard pot that goes into the LM386 and just wire it directly, or substitute a mini trim pot on the board so that you could make adjustments (that is what the third trimmer is in the above pic)

Any simple switch could be used to simply disconnect the power to the circuit. I would prefer a DPDT switch and disconnect the hot wire to the circuit as well, but it probably isnt necessary. Most push-pull pot switches for instance are DPDT (six lugs on the bottom) and could be used on the guitars volume or tone for instance...or a simple toggle as I have done. (this is only possible with a single pickup guitar that does not require bypass functions).

and to split the wire do i just run two wires off the end of the wire i'm splitting? and i don't need a bypass right? so is that where my on off goes?

Yes, just add a wire directly from the bridge pickup (before the controls) to the circuit, so that the signal goes to the amp and to the circuit...just a split. So, on/off is for the power to save batteries, but you may want to disconnect the signal also with the same switch (this split hot wire) though I am not sure that you would need to. Essentially, use the switch to disconnect the +ve battery wire to the circuit for off. To be absolutely sure, and to avoid the "pop" I get on switch off, I guess you could disconnect both the battery and both signal leads from the circuit with a 3PDT switch, but this may be a little overkill, and difficult to find.

pete

Oh...you may wish to use a 100uF output capacitor as we seem to have gotten a better high string response to it...that is what I have in my circuit. There was some discussion about this only a few pages back.

Edited August 31, 2006 by psw

[ebenezer shred]

but i don't need the controls right? if i don't put them on how would the schematic change?

[ebenezer shred]

but i don't need the controls right? if i don't put them on how would the schematic change?

[spazzyone]

it wont let copy and paste the fetzer ruby combo

but if you go to http://www.runoffgroove.com/fetzervalve.html

the pc board layout is there. and eliminating componets is easy if you read the schematic

were you see a trim pot youl see how its wired and eliminating it shoud be a jumper

taking its place. i assume you want to use it with a switch so its full on or full off?

with no adjustments for gain or volume as well as no mode switch

so its just on or off? Pete will elaborate further but its a simple process

[Primal]

You will really do need all of the controls. On my circuit, I have two trim pots on the pc board and 1 pot in place of my neck volume on my LP. The first control in the schematic (going from left to right) is the bias control for the transistor (basically regulates the voltage going to the transistor). Once you figure out the power supply you are going to use, you can adjust the pot to 4.5v, take a reading with your meter, and substitue the pot with an appropriate resistor. The middle control on the schematic is the "master volume," the control that took the place of my neck volume control. It is pretty much essential, because it is what will allow you to control the volume of the string that is being driven by the coil. The final control is the gain control. In the case of my sustainer, I had to tweak that control to get a clean sustain. What happened to me was that the transistor was overdriving the LM386 chip, thus making the coil distort the signal by driving the strings with a distorted signal.

Hope that all makes sense.

[ebenezer shred]

the fetzer valve is just a preamp section though. how would i connect it to the ruby amp?

[Primal]

The Fetzer-Ruby amp schematic is the entire circuit. Connecting the two has already been done.

[psw]

OK...the fetzer / ruby was not my idea. It is just one of any number of variations possible. There are things I don't like about it, but it appears to work, is small, chaep and does the job...so...here it is again...

Here is the LM386 poweramp section of my circuit, without modifications....

All right, if you compare the two, mine has a few extra components to improve stability. I would recomend the addition of the 10uF cap between pins 1 and 8 and omitting the resistor (as I have done) or using a trimmer instead. Also, the 0.1 cap and 10 ohm resistor to ground from pin 5 to ground is supposed to suppress oscillation, a so called zobel network. The output capacitor is rated at 220uF (to the speaker) but I have found that a 100uF worked a little better, particularly with high strings. The "volume" on the F/R is rated at 100k, mine is 10k and is perhaps more suitable. It could be replaced with a 10k trimmer, or it could be left off and the 22n cap wired directly to pin 2. In truth, the LM386 will run with just the output cap and no other components, but it will load the pickup down too much thus causing a dramatic decrease in power and destroying the tone of the guitar. Hence the preamp. On this the trim (100k) to bias the transistor is not a control but essential for the transistor to have the right conditions to work properly. Once it is calibrated to your transistor, it is set and forget. (this is something I don't like about this circuit, but unavoidable). My preamp is more elaborate with 2 conventional transistors, high gain, no trims and a fair bit of filtering...but then it is larger.

If I were you, I'd just map it out on a perfboard with enough space to add or change components without too much hassle. It might be adventageous to use sockets for the IC and transistor to avoid hurting them with soldering and so they can be salvaged if you need to start again. They can be easily damaged by the iron and to put in upside down so it is well worth the cents these cost.

I still would like to see an improved circuit for this project but alas I am not able to do any practical work on this at the moment. It is a DIY project though and you will have to expect some degree of experimentation. Rest assured though, it does work and is relatively easy to do with care and patience... pete

PS...no I don't have a schematic for my preamp...it is not so much secret as I don't remember what I did and would have to take it apart to find out...not going to happen at this time!

[Ben]

For anyone who might be interested heres a pic of my driver coil.

Its mounted on the top of the bobbin..

To make it glued a piece of card on top of the core, wound the coil, saturated it with CA, let it dry, then peeled off the card (a remenant of which is still stuck to it )

Comes out at exactly 8 ohms

(btw I know the pic is a little large, but in a few mins it should shrink when photobucket processes my request to reduce it )

Also, if you're wondering why theres toothpaste in the pic, its because my bathroom is the only room with halogen lighting, and hence the only room in which I can take photos when my camera doesnt have enough battery power left to charge up the flash

[psw]

That's cool ben, you seem to have those windings tight and well glued and the bobbin trick with the card seemed to have worked out well. People should note that the wire (0.2mm) is relatively thick (compared to pickup wire) and is nowhere near as fragile so lends itself to this type of construction. Anything that saves space and gets the driver close to the strings is an advantage.

So is this the P90 style pickup? Is there a pickup under that veroboard that shares the blade core?

No matter how scrappy it may seem, a cover will hide it all. With this type of pickup, you could even try placing metal beside the driver coil to contain and focuse the EMI and reduce it that way...just a thought.

Another way of reducing EMI reduction that hasn't been mentioned is the use of active coils...but then you need to power them. The use of dual coils that drive the strings and reduce EMI is most efficient (like a humbucker over a single coil and dummy coil to reduce hum) but there may be problems with it...remember I discussed them with this diagram...

Like a wide core, two coils could try and push and pull the same mode of vibration and cancel eachother out...or incorecctly span a node. This is conjecture as no one has yet made a full sized dual coil humbucker for instance that would prove this point. What was interesting with "Spazzy's" experiments is that the very thin cores and closeness of the coils of the rail pickup may avoid this problem. I have plans to build a dual core rail version of my driver/pickup and replace it with the same circuitry that I am using in the same guitar. This will give a direct comparison, and may also shed light upon a fix for my "pop" problem.

Meanwhile...I am struggling along through legal issues and hoping to get myself somewhere to live properly and get back a lot of my stuff. This will enable me to do at least a bit of experimentation with the project myself. Who knows, perhaps I will get around to addressing the circuit problem by designing something just right for the project, maybe even making them to let more people get into this device...a ways off yet, but the circuit side of things does seem to make some anxious, while modifying the guitar doesn't seem so bad, go figure.

Anyway, nice work Ben and thanks for sharing, hope it works as well as it looks (cardboard not withstanding!)... pete

oh yeah...57,000+ visits...whoo-hooo

[Ben]

So is this the P90 style pickup? Is there a pickup under that veroboard that shares the blade core?

yep

No matter how scrappy it may seem, a cover will hide it all. With this type of pickup, you could even try placing metal beside the driver coil to contain and focuse the EMI and reduce it that way...just a thought.

I'm counting on it remaining hidden. Its Ugly

I could quite easily glue some pieces of steel to the top of the bobbin next to the driver, but I think I'll try it without them first and see if theres a problem, because I'd guess that they could affect the sound of the pickup below

[axe_2_grind]

hey PSW, do you have a larger picture of YOUR schematic on this thread anywhere? I'd like to take a look at it and compare.

Also (and this is to anyone) what kind of JFET is being used on the fetzer/ruby circuit?

Edit: also has anyone thought of making one for 7-string. I have a stock pickup from my Ibanez that I'm dying to try this on!! Another thought I'm having is trying a dual-coil design (2x4ohm coils wired in series) thin and flat like PSW's but made to fit over both coils on a humbucker. Any toughts/suggestions on this?

Just as a side note to this whole thing, I walked into a local guitar shop today and they had a Jackson with a Sustainiac system mounted in it. If i'd had the time I would have tried it out, but I was on my lunch break so I couldn't.

Edited September 6, 2006 by axe_2_grind