zfrittz6 Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 Good morning friends, I put the image to you of the circuit of Col in smd here to see that so it seems to you and if somebody wants him to it I can send the complete project done with eagle 4,15, I have not reduced much to it to be able to also do it without smd, also I have divided it in two to be able to place it but easy, in the guitar. Another thing the coil which I proposed in horseshoe form I have to say that he does not work as he hoped and the design of a fine coil until now is the best one. Greetings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 (edited) See...the sound in my head is not a natural guitar sound, it is one that increases in volume and power...that really accentuates that it is a sustainer, not just a really long sustain. I have gotten a real taste of this with my version, but it lacks the control and consistancy that yours provides, and that effect is good too! What I guess I am trying to get is a very "vocal" type of articulation, using lots of slides and trem articulations, dynamics (swells, etc), odd kind of ethnic sounds, even some fret buzz provides a nice breathy quality...the harmonic provides a kind of falsetto sound... with chords I guess it's more of an organ like pedal tone. These types of effects need a reasonably clean sound. I did get the impression that you were partial the the more extreme end of Sustainville I have played with this unrestrained system myself, and it is somewhat envigorating. The control offered by your circuit will be invaluable to developing a mid-driver (if it is possible or even turns out to be desirable )... ... I will definitely be looking at building one to test it out when everything gets back on track... ... One thing you might want to consider is to have a system where you can switch between AGC and non-AGC versions. So you can choose depending on the situation. I think that you are going to have huge problems trying to get a non-agc system to work in the middle position - as you increase the drive, the EMI obviously increases as well, and additionaly have more clipping to contend with. I had another listen through your demo clips, and many of them have extreme settings with fret buzz and loads of sustainer generated fizz and fuzz. I agree that when this is used to advantage it can add to the character of the effect, but it also limits the usefulness and applicability of the system. If you were using an AGC setup, you might want to stick a compressor in the chain after the guitar to bring the sustained level up higher - although its pretty good as it is and even mild crunch will level things right up. Maybe the best approach if you want a really hard sustain, would be to have an AGC to keep it just below the level where you get fret buzz, and power it from an off board 18V supply with an amp a bit more powerful than the LM386. I guess the main thing though is that the two approaches are quite different. I think once you have tried the AGC system, you will appreciate it for what it is. It is more subtle, and can be used to enhance all your existing chops without overpowering them and requiring a change of technique. If you are intent on spreading the word and getting the whole guitar world into sustainers, I think the AGC approach will have more success. Personally, I would like to be able to have more extreme settings, but I'm not sure that it will be practical in a 9v battery system - maybe we can get it happening with a class-d driver amp. Good morning friends, I put the image to you of the circuit of Col in smd here to see that so it seems to you and if somebody wants him to it I can send the complete project done with eagle 4,15, I have not reduced much to it to be able to also do it without smd, also I have divided it in two to be able to place it but easy, in the guitar. Thats cool zfrittz. One thing to note: The circuit has changed since it was posted, it now has a much better mixed mode setup. I'll post an updated circuit soon, so you can update it. btw, what is the size of this pcb? Thanks Col Edited November 30, 2006 by col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfrittz6 Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 (edited) The circuit is of 2,5cm x 2,5cm approximately each one, although I can reduce it but but no longer prodria to be used nothing else that smd and thus can also be done without smd and they are possible to be put both in a single plate of double track, to see when you surprise to us with that improvement in the mixed way and I modify it. this already I have fact practically for want of the potentiometers, all I have made it with smd of cdrom old and some pieces removed from computers as soon as have it I put some photo. Col, if you wish it I send the complete project in zip. Edited November 30, 2006 by zfrittz6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 The circuit is of 2,5cm x 2,5cm approximately each one, although I can reduce it but but no longer prodria to be used nothing else that smd and thus can also be done without smd and they are possible to be put both in a single plate of double track, to see when you surprise to us with that improvement in the mixed way and I modify it. this already I have fact practically for want of the potentiometers, all I have made it with smd of cdrom old and some pieces removed from computers as soon as have it I put some photo. Col, if you wish it I send the complete project in zip. My stripboard layout is about 3cm x 7.5cm, so you have certainly improved upon that There are a few extra components for the mode switching - just 4 resistors and a cap, so shouldn't make much difference to the size. Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 I had another listen through your demo clips, and many of them have extreme settings with fret buzz and loads of sustainer generated fizz and fuzz. Well...generally I try and hide the fizz ...but I think I did detect fizz on some clean harmonic setting in that vid too... the fret buzz is possibly unavoidable at extreme settings, but a lot of it is to do with this guitar...I badly need to try this out on less of a POS guitar... Also, I am running the thing directly into an onboard sound card, with a cheap digital processor as a preamp...I am sure there is distortion and a lack of quality evident in those clips...not to mention very sloppy playing and struggling with this guitars qualities (or lack of!) I guess the main thing though is that the two approaches are quite different. I think once you have tried the AGC system, you will appreciate it for what it is. It is more subtle, and can be used to enhance all your existing chops without overpowering them and requiring a change of technique. If you are intent on spreading the word and getting the whole guitar world into sustainers, I think the AGC approach will have more success. Much as I'd like to conquer the world...mwahahahaha... Actually, in some ways you are right and the AGC is certainly an improvement and the mid-driver concept probably does depend upon it...I think what would most influence the adpotion of sustainer technology is new music and availability of the system to musicians to create new music. Such music, much as when feedback and distortion were first intentionally used in the '50's & '60's to dramatic effect, is the key...but it will have to sound "different" enough to be seen to be new... An extreme effect, and one with organic qualities (random fret buzzs, etc so as not to be confused with an effect or digital edit process) is in order...and talent... In the end, the device is a fun thing to play and can open new doors for players seeking to change their technique and habits...it is a real rut buster! Having fun playing is the key... While I like the extreme sustain effect, there is a lot of room for refinement...consistancy and predictability of response would be the most I'd be looking for. Perhaps more, or remote power for people like me intending on using the sustainer a lot with extreme setting is the way to go...there are amps we are yet to try with a bit more power and headroom. Maybe something will come up in driver designs that will further address the problems...I have not done anything practical on this for almost two years now I think, so maybe I can pull a trick or two out of the bag. Another thing the coil which I proposed in horseshoe form I have to say that he does not work as he hoped and the design of a fine coil until now is the best one. zfrittz6...I didn't think it would turn out too well...the driver you are using now, does it have two coils? Sounds like your board is about the same size as the fernandes system col, the SMD version a lot smaller...so it is not so bad. The circuitry in my guitar is split in two but is bigger than Fetzer/Ruby type circuits. That battery box I posted could probably be arranged to hold a circuit beneath it, or at least part of it. I guess a lot of work and obsession needs to go into something before it is fully formed, here we do it in public but I am sure those guys at sustainiac worked just as feverishly on their ideas before they committed to a product...just look at their patents (and others too, there are heaps of them). In the end, perhaps we have "invented" a better fuzz box or something of no big consequence, but for someone discovering new sounds and techniques with this device will mean a lot... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 Much as I'd like to conquer the world...mwahahahaha... Actually, in some ways you are right and the AGC is certainly an improvement and the mid-driver concept probably does depend upon it...I think what would most influence the adpotion of sustainer technology is new music and availability of the system to musicians to create new music. Such music, much as when feedback and distortion were first intentionally used in the '50's & '60's to dramatic effect, is the key...but it will have to sound "different" enough to be seen to be new... An extreme effect, and one with organic qualities (random fret buzzs, etc so as not to be confused with an effect or digital edit process) is in order...and talent... Maybe, although these days my feeling is that electric guitar is more traditional instrument. In the 50s and 60s, the solid body electric gutar/amp combo was still a new phenomenon, the modern equivalent it probably something like real-time performance sampling using loops and 'glitch' based effects, granulizers etc. to create extreme and challenging sounds. I guess if you went the whole way it could be interesting. A guitar that's not a guitar - i.e. doesn't have any real natural sustain, doesn't have any traditional pickups (piezos or some such). Just a plywood plank with frets and purely cosmetic body 'wings'. It would have a power lead and a signal cable. And of course a sustainer - on all the time. For years luthiers have strived to produce guitars with full sound and warm sustain but a sustainer guitar may work better with little or no natural resonance from the neck and body.... Sounds like your board is about the same size as the fernandes system col, the SMD version a lot smaller...so it is not so bad. The circuitry in my guitar is split in two but is bigger than Fetzer/Ruby type circuits. That battery box I posted could probably be arranged to hold a circuit beneath it, or at least part of it. Don't forget the depth of the circuit - those components can be quite tall. Until we get a fully optimised thin (like sustainiac) smd based circuit, I fear that some folks are going to have to work on board layouts custom designed to fit the available spaces in their guitars. Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 Don't forget the depth of the circuit - those components can be quite tall. Until we get a fully optimised thin (like sustainiac) smd based circuit, I fear that some folks are going to have to work on board layouts custom designed to fit the available spaces in their guitars. True, with my circuits I had enough space to lay caps on their side and such. In my present sustainer guitar I cut a significant extra cavity for such experiments behind the jack plate. Installing a sustainer is a commitment in this regard, hence that work on developing an add on box...there still may be some merit to this... Here is a picture of an fernandes install in a strat type guitar...although hidden by the scratch plate, there is still a big hole required... Again, this holds merit for some kind of box idea...perhaps spazzy/shawn has the right idea in making the whole thing off board.... Still...this is the second generation of this circuit. The fetzer/ruby version or something similar that Curtis made...essentially the same as mine...works really well and he seemed very happy with it (where are you curtisA?) and you can hear from his clip that he has been able to make great use of it. This basic sustainer, for all it's lack of refinement, does make a good account of itself... Perhaps a slightly better realization of a basic unit is still warranted as a DIY device... With the thin coil pickup/driver ideas that we have generally been exploring, developing and I have been promoting...this was envisioned as a basic DIY sustainer... All the Hex stuff and a lot of other stuff, was an attempt to take the idea beyond the current technology, not DIY! Perhaps your circuitry is somewhere in between, those who have taken the step to build a basic DIY sustainer may wish to step up to a circuit such as this...or perhaps get into the fernandes and sustainiac club... I am not sure that these companies have developed the ultimate realization of this device though, or even if they are seeking to develop it further... Perhaps other technology is already starting to overtake it...consider the variax technology, all those classic sounds modelled very convincingly and available at the turn of a knob without any magnetic pickups at all (on the Miller version I suspect that bridge HB Pup is the source for the sustainer, but it needn't be)... I guess if you went the whole way it could be interesting. A guitar that's not a guitar - i.e. doesn't have any real natural sustain, doesn't have any traditional pickups (piezos or some such). Just a plywood plank with frets and purely cosmetic body 'wings'. It would have a power lead and a signal cable. And of course a sustainer - on all the time. For years luthiers have strived to produce guitars with full sound and warm sustain but a sustainer guitar may work better with little or no natural resonance from the neck and body.... Yes...when I tried this on my Les Paul I was disappointed. In large part because that guitar is built to sustain naturally...it took a looooong time, before the effect was needed or was even desirable. This guitar does not have the percussive sound of a strat for instance...my strat is maple necked and completely hollow now so is headed in that direction... There is still a place for fine playing instruments and natural sounds. I don't see the sustainer as stepping into a "modeled" sterile new age world though. I see it as being something that steps back to a very organic, primitive kind of sound making device...controlled feedback. I'd love to be able to develop the next stage in the guitar...I suspect I just don't have any of the skills in sufficient quantity or quality. As digital modeling and recording starts to take over, there will be an increasing desire for a versitile input device... There will always be room for "organic" sounds though, most of the sounds modeled afterall, are of traditional instruments whether classic guitars or sitars...even people using keyboard synths seek to play samples, so the guitar itself may never die...but there may be a shift in the instrument that we use to trigger these sounds, perhaps along the lines you suggest... It will be interesting to see where it all leads...Pete Townsend (Who) suggested that if he were starting out today, he would probably be holed up in a bedroom with a keyboard and sampler churning out modern day "won't get fooled again" type anthems, I believe... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heggis Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 Hi everybody! Really interesting thread (bit long, though... ) I found a small amplifier kit, and I was wondering if you guys thought it would be suitable to drive a sustainer. "The Champ" It's only 6 dollars Australian, so I think it's cheaper than buying the individual parts. What do you guys think? Heggis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2006 Hi Heggis...welcome to the sustainer thread...another australian , I'm actually in Melbourne... Anyways...as it happens I use a slightly modified version of this kit in my guitar...but this is just the LM386 part of the basic circuit. It is a ggod way to make it as all the parts and a circuit board is supplied, but you have to have room for this and the preamp plus the battery inside of the guitar. You need a preamp to avoid loading the pickups and to provide more gain at the input. This is a very basic need for this project...you can go a lot further for a better performance as col has been devising and this is the next stage in the development of this project. Mine works pretty well without it. You could use a simple preamp like the fetzer valve with this circuit and the only real mod needed is to add a trim pot or change the resistor between pins 1 & 8 to suit your guitar and playing style, and the effect that you are seeking from it. The challenge is in the driver and installation of the device. There are a couple of driver designs and approaches now, making it can be a problem and you do need to ensure that there is absolutely no vibration within the coil and it is wound with the correct wire gauge and such... There are a couple of tutorials here, have you checked that out, and the sounds thread? Installation involves bypassing any other pickups but the bridge and mounting the driver, finding room for the other stuff, making sure there is no interferance (EMI) leaking into the guitar's circuitry and fitting appropriate switches into your instrument...not as easy as it may sound for many... What I would seriously suggest if you are going to try this, is to approach it in stages and not get too ahead of yourself. Make a suitable circuit and preamp and test it with a small speaker to make sure it works. Then, work out how and make a driver from suitable wire (0.2mm enameled copper) and test this over the neck of the guitar with your circuitry. Now, think about how you might get it into your guitar or you could do better at making a driver and or circuit if all does not go to plan. Do not assume that a simple push pull or other switch will work in your application, do not assume a totally reversable mod, do not assume any particular performance criteria (that you can use light strings and a low action, that all notes in a chord will sustain, etc) or not realize that your playing technique (especially in damping) will need to be changed, do not assume that everything will go as planned... I can assure you that the thing works and has worked for me and for others and that there are developments all the time. It is not particularly hard to do, but will take time and patience to work things out and get it going the way you want it. Perhaps, if you are thinking of doing it, even for an experiment, you could give more details of what you had in mind...either way, thanks for your interest... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heggis Posted December 1, 2006 Report Share Posted December 1, 2006 Hi Heggis...welcome to the sustainer thread...another australian , I'm actually in Melbourne... Actually I'm Norwegian, but I've been living in Sydney for four years but you have to have room for this and the preamp plus the battery inside of the guitar. I don't think room will be a problem. I'm building a 2" thick solid body mahogany guitar, and it is a bit big, so anything that takes up space will be a blessing for my back... You need a preamp to avoid loading the pickups and to provide more gain at the input. This is a very basic need for this project...you can go a lot further for a better performance as col has been devising and this is the next stage in the development of this project. Mine works pretty well without it. You could use a simple preamp like the fetzer valve with this circuit and the only real mod needed is to add a trim pot or change the resistor between pins 1 & 8 to suit your guitar and playing style, and the effect that you are seeking from it. The challenge is in the driver and installation of the device. There are a couple of driver designs and approaches now, making it can be a problem and you do need to ensure that there is absolutely no vibration within the coil and it is wound with the correct wire gauge and such... There are a couple of tutorials here, have you checked that out, and the sounds thread? I've been looking at the build your own sustainer thread on the tutorials page. I just didn't notice that there was a pre-amp built in to the amp. Do you think the "Pre-Champ" kit could work (also from Jaycar)? Installation involves bypassing any other pickups but the bridge and mounting the driver, finding room for the other stuff, making sure there is no interferance (EMI) leaking into the guitar's circuitry and fitting appropriate switches into your instrument...not as easy as it may sound for many... What I would seriously suggest if you are going to try this, is to approach it in stages and not get too ahead of yourself. Make a suitable circuit and preamp and test it with a small speaker to make sure it works. Then, work out how and make a driver from suitable wire (0.2mm enameled copper) and test this over the neck of the guitar with your circuitry. Now, think about how you might get it into your guitar or you could do better at making a driver and or circuit if all does not go to plan. Do not assume that a simple push pull or other switch will work in your application, do not assume a totally reversable mod, do not assume any particular performance criteria (that you can use light strings and a low action, that all notes in a chord will sustain, etc) or not realize that your playing technique (especially in damping) will need to be changed, do not assume that everything will go as planned... I can assure you that the thing works and has worked for me and for others and that there are developments all the time. It is not particularly hard to do, but will take time and patience to work things out and get it going the way you want it. Perhaps, if you are thinking of doing it, even for an experiment, you could give more details of what you had in mind...either way, thanks for your interest... pete I'm only going to have a bridge pickup (Kent Armstrong distortion humbucker) in my guitar, and the sustainer will go where the neck pickup would usually go. To experiment, I was thinking of making a one-string fretless 'slide guitar'. Basically a string on a piece of wood with a pickup underneath. I do have a spare humbucker (until I finish my guitar, at least), but I don't think I will make much progress until after Christmas, as I'm going overseas. Thanks alot for making such an effort answering everybody's questions! Heggis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2006 OK heggis...you can be northern european too...but, being in australia, I can help you locate the necessary stuff, so that is good. I'm not sure if Jaycar carry the wire, most Dick Smith stores do though. I have used the prechamp and it should do the job, I have some suggested mods for that too, and as long as you do have room for it, that is the way to go, at least to get it going...so you will need both kits and to email me about the mods. (note, I am moving house next week so it may take a bit to get that stuff organised and I maybe off line for a little bit) I'm only going to have a bridge pickup (Kent Armstrong distortion humbucker) in my guitar, and the sustainer will go where the neck pickup would usually go. This is the ideal situation as it will only work with the bridge pickup anyway...bypassing other pickups in the installation process wont cause problems then (a lot easier and cheaper too!) So, once you have built the amp/preamp...you will need a driver... Get a small reel of 0.2mm wire. We are only winding to about 8 ohms (150-200 turns) so there will be enough there for a few drivers. You will need to "pot" the coil...I did that with woodworking PVA as I wound it and it turned out fine...this is cheap and safe. Don't think about winding machines...hand winding won't take long (this is not a pickup) and will allow you to add plenty of glue as you go (see my pictorial). You will need some kind of ohm meter to know when you have wound enough (a cheap <$10 would do and has lots of other uses)... Now...you need to work out how you are going to wind the thing. Many have used pickup bobbins blocked up to 3mm (the thickness of the coil)...I have made one out of thin card...my current one sits on top of a single coil pickup. You will also need a magnet...an old pickup magnet is ideal...you could use a few craft shop magnets also. You will need to consider how you are going to mount the device in your guitar...that is why a pickup is a good idea, but there are plenty more you could come up with. I wound my driver around a bit of ordinary steel 3mm wide as a blade. To experiment, I was thinking of making a one-string fretless 'slide guitar'. Basically a string on a piece of wood with a pickup underneath. hahaha...this reminds me of some of the early stuff I tried. This project will work on a guitar with the driver held over the strings (perhaps over the neck if there is a neck pickup) on any guitar. The problem with the one string guitar is that it is hard to judge it's performance on different gauge strings and different fretted positions...I abandoned that after a short while. I don't think I will make much progress until after Christmas, as I'm going overseas. That's good, because I am in a transition too...will still be here in the new year... Thanks alot for making such an effort answering everybody's questions! That's ok, nice to meet you...clearly I have no life ...sustain on... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfrittz6 Posted December 1, 2006 Report Share Posted December 1, 2006 Pete, I am using a single fine coil with tba820 of 1w, but single to prove and other 8 times I use two of ohm fed with a stereo amplifier on 1w. Still I do not have safe what pondre in the end, in any case I finish buying two tda 7052 to prove them and 7052 both thought tapeworm to use each one with a coil of 8 ohms, mounted upon my hambucker, all fact in one laminates very fine, and if the circuit of Col is perfected not to use electrolytic condensers I believe that podria to make to mount it underneath hambucker and thus not to have to touch nothing in the guitar except the commutator. The truth, I do not want to modify nothing or almost nothing in my guitar, the subject of the batteries I have it solved with 6 small batteries of 600mA. each one between the cavity of tremolo, and underneath the potentiometers of the guitar, the system to disconnect the harvestings is very simple, a switch of car radio that in fact what does is to connect the feeding when the harvesting of the bridge is selected. Thus it is as I have everything. Greetings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted December 1, 2006 Report Share Posted December 1, 2006 ...and if the circuit of Col is perfected not to use electrolytic condensers I believe that podria to make to mount it underneath hambucker and thus not to have to touch nothing in the guitar except the commutator.... The only way to avoid using electrolytics that I can see is to use Tantalums instead - they are much smaller, but DAMN expensive cheers Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted December 1, 2006 Report Share Posted December 1, 2006 Here's the strip board layout for my latest circuit revision - fully tested and working Pay particular attention to the 'cut track' symbols - red dot in red square - some of these are hidden under resistors and only just visible there should be 35 of them. Look carefully for partially hidden blue jumper wires there should be 12 in total Note also that this is the preamp only - the output should be connected to a LM386 poweramp section (refer to my old LM13700 circuit and use the 3rd part of the 3 part strip board layout) ................................................................... switch connections: e is the output from the input buffer/amp d is the input to the mode op-amp the mode connections are as follows: normal e connected to a1 d connected to a2 mixed e connected to c2 d connected to c1 full harmonic e no connection d connected to b1 ...................................... According to the notes for the limiter shematic I used as a starting point, C5 should be either a tantalum or a low leakage electrolytic - a standard electrolytic will not be good enough. I have tested the circuit with a normal electrolytic and it seems to work ok. I have also just obtained some tantalums to try... I'll post if a tantalum cap improves the response in any way. ...................................... Stuff to tweak: R5 : increase this to allow a higher maximum threshold setting (and a higher minimum) R29 : controls the frequency at which the mixed mode changes from normal to harmonic reduce the value to have more harmonics further up the neck. (tweaking C8 will also effect this setting, again, lower for more harmonics) ....................................... possible additions: 2nd mixed mode this would be normal mode for the lower frequencies, blending to harmonics for higher notes... basically the inverse of the current mixed mode. I have found that having the power switch on the same rotary switch as the modes causes a click when changing mode, so I will probably have a seperate power switch - at which time I will see if mixed mode 2 is a worthy addition AGC bypass You may find that you really miss the wilder feel of the normal fetzer/ruby based circuit, it should be fairly simple to rig up a switch to bypass the AGC section of this circuit in order to provide similar functionality. so anyway... here ya go: I'll post the updated schematic soon as well.... as soon as I've worked out a sensible way to show a 3P4T switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfrittz6 Posted December 1, 2006 Report Share Posted December 1, 2006 Col I thank for that you have put your circuit to the disposition of all, the only thing is that I lose a little without the scheme, if you can have if you comment a little to me the modification for the system mixed in comparison with the circuit that I put in previous post to do mod opportune, thanks for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted December 1, 2006 Report Share Posted December 1, 2006 (edited) Col I thank for that you have put your circuit to the disposition of all, the only thing is that I lose a little without the scheme, if you can have if you comment a little to me the modification for the system mixed in comparison with the circuit that I put in previous post to do mod opportune, thanks for everything. I've uploaded the circuit to photobucket - it should be ok, but if there are differences between it and the layout (other than slight component value differences) better get back to me. One thing to note is that the mode switch is a 4 way, it should really be a 3-way, but there wasn't one Col Edited December 1, 2006 by col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted December 1, 2006 Report Share Posted December 1, 2006 Still...this is the second generation of this circuit. The fetzer/ruby version or something similar that Curtis made...essentially the same as mine...works really well and he seemed very happy with it (where are you curtisA?) Hehe...still here, just not as often as before. Been far too busy, and have a lot of new DIY projects on the go at the moment. The Jaycar "Champ" circuit is the one I used with the gain pins shorted for max gain, with the addition of a N-channel JFET source-follower circuit in the front end for buffering purposes. The Champ by itself has bags of gain to drive the sustainer, probably even too much, which is one of the reasons why Col and myself were pushing for the AGC circuit to automatically remove gain where it wasn't required and boost it back up when the drive was too weak to excite the strings. I recieved my free samples of the THAT2181 VCA IC the other day. I wouldn't mind trying to see if I can create a self-contained VCA solution using this chip and seeing if I can get better performance from my current Champ/JFET sustainer - the experiments I did with the feed-forward limiter were certainly promising, and Col's experiences with his new VCA are encouraging too. Will try to devote as much time as I can to this, but the Christmas period is fast approaching and work gets busy this time of the year. I'd also like to explore at some point getting the mid-driver option working for one of my main guitars - a HSH Ibanez S470QM (I never use the mid single coil position). The DIY sustainer guitar I put together for the original project does work, but it's not the greatest instrument in the world Obviously this is going to mean developing some kind of new driver that has very little EMI radiation that will fit in a single coil position, so I'll have to go back through the last 50-odd pages of this thread to get all the info for doing so The cool news is that I'll be using the sustainer guitar at our album launch gig tonight, which will be recorded to mobile 24-track for possible release later on. I've managed to incorporate the sustainer into some of our live interpretations of our stuff, to substitute for some of the keyboard parts, and it works a treat. Cheers, Curtis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 Still...this is the second generation of this circuit. The fetzer/ruby version or something similar that Curtis made...essentially the same as mine...works really well and he seemed very happy with it (where are you curtisA?) Ahhh...there you are... Well I am glad you are caught up in the festive season and that you are having so much fun with the sustainer... The cool news is that I'll be using the sustainer guitar at our album launch gig tonight, which will be recorded to mobile 24-track for possible release later on. I've managed to incorporate the sustainer into some of our live interpretations of our stuff, to substitute for some of the keyboard parts, and it works a treat. See... althought the basic single coil amped up DIY Sustainer is not perfect, but, it is very usable. The DIY sustainer guitar I put together for the original project does work, but it's not the greatest instrument in the world Oh...are we talking the sustainer is not the most usable instrument in the world, or the guitar it is on? The Jaycar "Champ" circuit is the one I used with the gain pins shorted for max gain, with the addition of a N-channel JFET source-follower circuit in the front end for buffering purposes. I did the same, added a lot of gain in front and changed the output cap to 100uF I'd also like to explore at some point getting the mid-driver option working for one of my main guitars - a HSH Ibanez S470QM (I never use the mid single coil position). ... Obviously this is going to mean developing some kind of new driver that has very little EMI radiation that will fit in a single coil position, so I'll have to go back through the last 50-odd pages of this thread to get all the info for doing so Again...now you have come this far, like me, you want to take it further and the mid-driver seems the most obvious step (although I suspect a very big one)... Good to see I wont be working alone in this pursuit... I hope to do something similar...not sure about a H/S/H configuration, especially if it has a 24 fret neck those pickups are very close ... I however just got a top of the line Squier with a Duncan Designed JB HB and two singles for half price (a real bargin even though I should be buying a washing machine). The great thing about this guitar is that it really has quality in the right places, sounds good (except those SC's) and is top loaded so will be easy to get the pickups or driver's in and out of the guitar...the problem will be getting over the fear of modding it too much! Squier Trans Fat Strat Reviews Being top loaded also means that there is a rear cavity, so I can have a playable instrument while experimenting...no more removing the scratch plate, just hang everything out the back. I love those straty out of phase sounds (early dire straits) so would miss the mid pickup, but I have also come to appreciate the other sounds like neck and bridge and with a HB/S there are plenty of great sounds to be had in such a guitar with a five way switch. That leaves the mid slot open for all kinds of experiments...so I can't wait. I have plans to do some pickup designs and winding and of course probably incorporating the sustainer driver into these. It occers to me that something along the lines of Tims simple coil making jig could make epoxy driver coils that could also serve as bobbin tops for instance... I can't know as yet what will be the best approach for the mid-driver experiments. I think there may well be something in the bilateral designs...I am very interested in the idea of bi-lateral SC pickups like those Novak designs, especially if combined with a bilateral driver... If we dispense with the mid pickup completely, all kinds of options open up for experimentation...plus all the bypass woes are behind us... It may well be that a circuit like col's will be required and I will be keen to see what other options there may be for this as it is fairly large in it's present format. I hope to call on you guys for a bit of advice in refining the basic circuit and will be testing things like the 7052 myself. While not perfect, the wild basic sustainer is of musical value for what I want to do with it and will continue to refine that, even if I do use something like col's AGC for the mid driver project. Col...what can I say, that circuit layout is a masterpiece. It is nice how things have come together with Branislav's fabulous software and involvement with the project, You and Curtis and others involved with the circuitry, Tim (busy with a new job I understand ) providing his remarkable design talent and all the others that have encouraged and joined in on this. There has been an ever increasing number of subscribers to this thread and obviously people are interested and looking on...I hope you are enjoying this as much as I am... Will try to devote as much time as I can to this, but the Christmas period is fast approaching and work gets busy this time of the year. Understood, it is a busy time for us all, however we should all be looking forward to a good year ahead with the progress made of late. I move next week and money and time will be tight...I do however anticipate working on these things and having the facilities to do stuff in the new year. I also anticipate playing a lot more guitar and with a new axe in hand, carving out some new sonic territory, at least for my own enjoyment... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfrittz6 Posted December 2, 2006 Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 (edited) Col thanks for your circuit is perfect, what hare now sera to design it for smd in the minimum space, if it can be in 2cm. x 2cm. com tda 7052 in the place of the 386 including. Pete, I think that the fine conductors podrian themselves to use in the single average position a coil but must be isolated of EMI, I I have proven this in my ibanez and works enough or, for it as in other occasions I have used very fine tin strips having surrounded the coil until reaching the size of the average harvesting practically annulling almost all EMI towards the sides and without using nucleus in the single coil with the magnetism of the harvesting, and to thus it has worked me or in the average position and that that evo2 is enough hot in the other guitar which I have has the harvesting lace sensor of fender and placing it until almost a cm. of near the harvesting does not have interferences, I think that deberias to prove it, single is necessary to cut strips of 2mm. of tin of the pepsi-cola and to surround the coil until 0,5cm by thickness with her, and almost is annulled EMI, with the bilateral coil I have not had better results than with which I have put. Also to comment that the thread of the coils like was impossible to obtain it in stores, here in where alive, which I do is to buy motor of ventilators of 5watios, which take thread of 0,20mm. and they take off very easy which can have thread for 18 coils it comment for which it does not have possibility of obtaining the necessary thread. Greetings Edited December 2, 2006 by zfrittz6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted December 2, 2006 Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 Col...what can I say, that circuit layout is a masterpiece. watch out for at least one fairly obvious error - I noticed that it's pencilled in on the print copy I used as a reference when building my board... there should be another track cut at 'b 27' - or pins 1 and 3 of the output pot will be shorted together. oops... I'll post a corrected and updated layout soon - will add 'mixed mode 2' to that if testing goes well. Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 watch out for at least one fairly obvious error - I noticed that it's pencilled in on the print copy I used as a reference when building my board... there should be another track cut at 'b 27' - or pins 1 and 3 of the output pot will be shorted together. oops... I'll post a corrected and updated layout soon - will add 'mixed mode 2' to that if testing goes well. Not to worry...that one under the pot isn't too hard to spot, the hard part was fitting it on in some kind of sensible compact order...people should still regard these things as a work in progress including layouts... A little editing of that post and no one would have known!!! I am liking the idea of the rotary switch to select different modes of the device and adding more modes for different types of effect. Perhaps it does need a separate on/off switch (this could facilitate the bypass functions if required) which would make it easier to get from off to a preselected mode... I will be having to think about installation issues again in time. It is hard to contemplate cutting into a new guitar and a rotary control, pot replacement is a fine solution. The control cavity is small and would certainly need enlarging for something as big as this, as well as a battery...I will have to get clever for an install (but as I say, everything can be tested outside of the guitar... Col thanks for your circuit is perfect, what hare now sera to design it for smd in the minimum space, if it can be in 2cm. x 2cm. com tda 7052 in the place of the 386 including. While this may be true...SMD for one off construction can be very expensive... Also to comment that the thread of the coils like was impossible to obtain it in stores, here in where alive, which I do is to buy motor of ventilators of 5watios... Very resourcefull...finding the right guage in motors for many can be equally hard to find... Eventually, we may be able to work out some kind of supply or kit solution so it wont matter where people are...some, even in the USA, are having the same problem... Pete, I think that the fine conductors podrian themselves to use in the single average position a coil but must be isolated of EMI, I I have proven this in my ibanez and works enough or, for it as in other occasions I have used very fine tin strips having surrounded the coil until reaching the size of the average harvesting practically annulling almost all EMI towards the sides and without using nucleus in the single coil with the magnetism of the harvesting, and to thus it has worked me or in the average position and that that evo2 is enough hot in the other guitar which I have has the harvesting lace sensor of fender and placing it until almost a cm. of near the harvesting does not have interferences, I think that deberias to prove it, single is necessary to cut strips of 2mm. of tin of the pepsi-cola and to surround the coil until 0,5cm by thickness with her, and almost is annulled EMI, with the bilateral coil I have not had better results than with which I have put. I may need further assistance translating the translation ...I would appear that zfrittz6 has been able to get it working in the middle (average?) position with the single (fine?) coil design if magnetically shielded by layers of metal to 5mm surrounding the coil...and that the bilateral is no better. While I never went to the extent of putting such a massive shield around any of my designs, I am surprised that the energy from the driver doesn't travel down the metal strings to be picked up by the source (harvesting?) pickup only 1 cm away! Still, perhaps it can be done this way. I refer also to Dizzy's mid driver strat. Certainly from the sound clip it works impressively. All pics have gone, but I did see it once and it was basically a sustainiac like bilateral driver. The circuitry is secret but is basically in line with the patents (AGC, Phase compensation, etc). Sustainiac have a patent on the mid-driver also (as well as various switching options BTW) and so most likely did have the thing working... These facts should give some hope that it is at least possible... People should note though, that the mid driver may not, even if it works, work as well as the neck positioned driver. It will not be an option for non strat like guitars without mid pickups I suspect, and it may be more trouble than it is worth (increased tonal variation, addressing some of the action related problems, less bypassing, no mod to the neck pickup, etc)...but it is worth a try and could be applicable to very many guitars... In the least, we may develop a better or more efficient driver, and that can't be a bad thing... Anyways...off to work... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donut Man Posted December 2, 2006 Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 OK, the fact that this thread is over 100 pages long is hurting my brain and my eyes, so Im going to ask my questions now I understand that the refined and currently accepted method of the DIY sustainer is using the fetzer ruby preamp, and having it drive a DIY driver, which is a magnet with some wire wrapped around it (see I have been reading) but what i dont understand is, what is wrong with the original design on the tutorial section of the project guitar site? I know that the piezo method doesnt work the same way as the "refined" method, but does it still sustain and acchieve a similar effect? second question, for the method on the site, do I have to use a 386? maplins dont seem to sell them anymore, can i use a LM331N, lm358N or lm393N or anything else I can get from maplins? forgive my noobiness guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted December 2, 2006 Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 I am liking the idea of the rotary switch to select different modes of the device and adding more modes for different types of effect. Perhaps it does need a separate on/off switch (this could facilitate the bypass functions if required) which would make it easier to get from off to a preselected mode... Yes, I think a seperate power switch is important. Ideally we can have one of the modes as 'no drive' that can be switched with no click or pop - it would still use power, but not very much. I have simulated the second mixed mode, and I can squeeze it onto that board, but I've not tested it so I don't know how good or useful it will be yet. If it works out, the new setup will be a 5 way rotary switch with: no drive normal mixed 1 mixed 2 full harmonic and a seperate on/off (this could just be the guitar jack if you wanted to always have sustainer, or alternatively a toggle or slider switch, or a push/pull section of a fancy pot... I will be having to think about installation issues again in time. It is hard to contemplate cutting into a new guitar and a rotary control, pot replacement is a fine solution. The control cavity is small and would certainly need enlarging for something as big as this, as well as a battery...I will have to get clever for an install (but as I say, everything can be tested outside of the guitar... Col thanks for your circuit is perfect, what hare now sera to design it for smd in the minimum space, if it can be in 2cm. x 2cm. com tda 7052 in the place of the 386 including. While this may be true...SMD for one off construction can be very expensive... If we got a few people together, we could probably sort out some sort of small batch from a manufacturer - however I wouldn't want to even think about going that way until the circuit is totally functional, debugged and tested by multiple people on different setups. Pete, I think that the fine conductors podrian themselves to use in the single average position a coil but must be isolated of EMI, I I have proven this in my ibanez and works enough or, for it as in other occasions I have used very fine tin strips having surrounded the coil until reaching the size of the average harvesting practically annulling almost all EMI towards the sides and without using nucleus in the single coil with the magnetism of the harvesting, and to thus it has worked me or in the average position and that that evo2 is enough hot in the other guitar which I have has the harvesting lace sensor of fender and placing it until almost a cm. of near the harvesting does not have interferences, I think that deberias to prove it, single is necessary to cut strips of 2mm. of tin of the pepsi-cola and to surround the coil until 0,5cm by thickness with her, and almost is annulled EMI, with the bilateral coil I have not had better results than with which I have put. I may need further assistance translating the translation ...I would appear that zfrittz6 has been able to get it working in the middle (average?) position with the single (fine?) coil design if magnetically shielded by layers of metal to 5mm surrounding the coil...and that the bilateral is no better. While I never went to the extent of putting such a massive shield around any of my designs, I am surprised that the energy from the driver doesn't travel down the metal strings to be picked up by the source (harvesting?) pickup only 1 cm away! Still, perhaps it can be done this way. One concern I have is that in my experiments with shields, I found that they reduced the drive somewhat... I think the shield tends to channel the flux not just away form the bad places, but also away from the strings. I guess the trick is to get the correct balance between enough shielding and enough driver efficiency... or move to outboard power. People should note though, that the mid driver may not, even if it works, work as well as the neck positioned driver. It will not be an option for non strat like guitars without mid pickups I suspect, and it may be more trouble than it is worth (increased tonal variation, addressing some of the action related problems, less bypassing, no mod to the neck pickup, etc)...but it is worth a try and could be applicable to very many guitars... In the least, we may develop a better or more efficient driver, and that can't be a bad thing... It's possible that sustainiac had a mid position system working, but decided that on balance, it was not such a good product. It would require more power to give the same level of drive, and it would also be much more sensitive to small variations in guitar setup and hardware. You also have the issue of the big chunky shield - how do you make that stylistically acceptable to the market... And then of course there are the reports that the harmonic modes don't work the same with a mid position driver - although I'm not sure why they wouldn't.... Still thats all conjecture - I want to hear more about your shielded driver zfrittz6, does it use more current to get the same drive level? does harmonic mode work? any pictures would be good to see as well Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted December 2, 2006 Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 Oh...are we talking the sustainer is not the most usable instrument in the world, or the guitar it is on? Hehe...no, the guitar that I built to run the sustainer is the weakest link. The sustainer itself is cool! BTW, the sustainer performed very well at last night's gig I hope to do something similar...not sure about a H/S/H configuration, especially if it has a 24 fret neck those pickups are very close ... That has me worried a little too, but on leafing through the Sustainiac patent yesterday, it seems that their system is perfectly happy running mid position with either the neck or bridge pickup selected, although their system is for a fully active guitar. Also interesting to read yesterday in that patent was their comments about feedback - they talk about induced interference (magnetic coupling - the fizzies) and electrostatic capacitive coupling, something I hadn't considered before. They mention that the way to get around the capacitive coupling is to invert the driver signal so that the the driver and pickup signals cancel each other out. Normal and Harmonic modes are then handled by clever manipulation of the driver signal rather than simply flipping the phase of the driver leads like we've all been doing. Their patent also seems to do away with the need for a dedicated AGC amp, and the driver is driven from a pulse-width-modulated signal from a current sourcing amp instead of the venerable LM386. Interesting stuff in there. I can't know as yet what will be the best approach for the mid-driver experiments. I think there may well be something in the bilateral designs...I am very interested in the idea of bi-lateral SC pickups like those Novak designs, especially if combined with a bilateral driver... If we dispense with the mid pickup completely, all kinds of options open up for experimentation...plus all the bypass woes are behind us... Judging from what I read yesterday in the Sustainiac patent, I'd say the bilateral driver is the ONLY way to go for a mid position sustainer. The current slimline system (like the one you, me and others have built), while fully working, is just too "dirty" - it radiates a lot of garbage into the highly sensitive guitar electrics and is a major source of instability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 Also interesting to read yesterday in that patent was their comments about feedback - they talk about induced interference (magnetic coupling - the fizzies) and electrostatic capacitive coupling, something I hadn't considered before. They mention that the way to get around the capacitive coupling is to invert the driver signal so that the the driver and pickup signals cancel each other out. Normal and Harmonic modes are then handled by clever manipulation of the driver signal rather than simply flipping the phase of the driver leads like we've all been doing. I suggested something along these lines a while back, although the idea wasn't as well described due to my hazy understanding of the concepts, I basically had a hunch .. I tried to explain it in relation to how the driver and pickup were connected via the earth.. either in phase or out of phase.... Anyway, I have not been switching the driver leads to get harmonic modes... instead using a buffer to invert (or not) the signal... the mixed modes are achieved via a simple all-pass filter. Their patent also seems to do away with the need for a dedicated AGC amp, and the driver is driven from a pulse-width-modulated signal from a current sourcing amp instead of the venerable LM386. Interesting stuff in there. Is that not just their patent speak obfuscation of "we're using a class-d power amp" ? have they got some sort of trick in a custom class-d design that gives the equivalent of AGC? treating the PWM signal in some way? I can't know as yet what will be the best approach for the mid-driver experiments. I think there may well be something in the bilateral designs...I am very interested in the idea of bi-lateral SC pickups like those Novak designs, especially if combined with a bilateral driver... If we dispense with the mid pickup completely, all kinds of options open up for experimentation...plus all the bypass woes are behind us... Judging from what I read yesterday in the Sustainiac patent, I'd say the bilateral driver is the ONLY way to go for a mid position sustainer. The current slimline system (like the one you, me and others have built), while fully working, is just too "dirty" - it radiates a lot of garbage into the highly sensitive guitar electrics and is a major source of instability. The dual rail driver is MUCH cleaner than the single coil one... what advantage does the bi-lateral design have over bi-longitudinal other than potentially being a little slimmer ? btw, its great to hear that you're using this thing for real Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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