ES335 guitar top

[CGHbuilder86]

I have made several acoustic guitars in my time. I am now thinking about making an ES 335 or an ES 175 style electric guitar. These guitars are usually made with laminated tops. My question is would these guitars not sound better with a solid top, such as a carved maple top? All acoustic guitars sound better with solid tops, so it seems to me that these electric guitars would sound better also, maybe the sound would ring more and resonate through the body more.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Myka Guitars]

A guitar like that out of solid wood is going to have more of a tonal range than the laminated tops variety. It does have to do with the resonant character of a solid piece versus one that is muted and restrained by laminations. Compare the tap tone of a piece of plywood with a piece of solid wood and you get the idea.

If you use spruce for the top and maple for that back you would basically have a thinline archtop guitar. You can use maple for the tops as well. Another approach is to use a solid block for the back and sides and route out the hollow in it. This is more of an electric than an acoustic guitar but the results are pretty nice. Also you can leave out the solid block down the middle like a 335 and use braces to support the top and an archtop style bridge for that funky nasally arcthop tone.

Here are a couple links for inspiration:

Heatley hollowbody

Sakashta semi-hollow

[soapbarstrat]

I think they feed-back more with a solid wood top, and they can develop cracks. But I know what you mean about probably sounding better with a solid top. Often I'll see pics of a player with a cool looking hollow-body (with a laminated top) and then when I actually hear the sound they get, I think " crap, my modded strat sounds way better than that".

I wanted to like George Thorogood's sound, but his guitar's got a laminted top, and that just bugs me when I listen to him.

[Myka Guitars]

Hollowbodies do feedback more with a solid wood top that is for sure. The increased resonance makes for a vey senitive guitar. Further bracing may help but also proper amp settings and where you stand in relation to the amp makes the most difference. I usually set my guitar up so that at just about 3/4 volume (on my guitar) I start to get hints of feedback so that when I turn up the volume I can get it to go. Hand muting and holding the guitar away from the amp can control it too. I love playing with feedback so the extra sensativity is a good thing. Nothing like having a sustained chord break up into a blossom of musical feedback!

If the wood is properly dried they should not develop cracks at all. But in a climate that shifts humidity levels (like in the Northeast in the summer) it may be a problem. They are made thicker than most acoustic tops so they should be OK though. I play fairly heavy so the cracks that develop on my guitar will be concussion cracks.

[KTLguitars]

Solid carved top sounds better but are less robust than laminated. The laminated tops also gets stiffer (less flexible) and gives a brighter sound. If you use maple in your top, it will also give you a sound leaning agains the brighter but kind of richer than laminated, -if you want the warmer acoustic sound -use spruce. I think you have a certain way that the harmonics increases during a sustainging note in solid wood tops that the laminated (and composite) instruments don't give.

Regarding the cracking of solid tops, a tip here is to use one thin layer of polyurethane laquer inside the top before mounting the hole thing together - also use polyurethane laquer for your finishing because of its high diffusion resistance.

That would seal your body so that the hunidity transport into and out of the wood will be very slow. The cracking occur when the wood suddenly dries out - just over a few days/weeks (typically here in Norway when the winther comes with intensive heating after a humid autumn!).

I have done this to a semi acoustic which I am hanging on the wall a couple of feets to the side of a cold window with an electric heater underneath - just to check it out - and it has now survived four winthers in the same place!

[JamesW]

Just been reading the posts and some questions occur to me...

Can a carved solid top be flat on the underside?

Is it a good idea then to lacquer all the inside of a hollow guitar to avoid moisture warping?

Myka Guitars - I'm wondering how practical it would be to make, say, an ES-335 with a solid piece of mahogany and then route out the inside, perhaps leaving the solid 'log' part in the middle. Would such a body be as strong as a normal 335's body? What are the disadvantages of doing it this way? Too me it seems like an easy way of making a hollow body guitar, if perhaps a little wasteful on the wood.

[erikbojerik]

A carved top with a flat underside will not respond as much to the string's vibrations, and so you'll get a bit less acoustic character and you'll be moving more toward solid-body electric territory. And it will probably have the effect of making the tone a bit brighter (because of the increased stiffness).

With a flat underside, I think then you have simply a chambered electric, which will sound different than the equivalent solid-body (and be lighter for sure), but an arched top (carved both inside & out) would sound even more different.

[Myka Guitars]

Just been reading the posts and some questions occur to Myka Guitars - I'm wondering how practical it would be to make, say, an ES-335 with a solid piece of mahogany and then route out the inside, perhaps leaving the solid 'log' part in the middle. Would such a body be as strong as a normal 335's body? What are the disadvantages of doing it this way? Too me it seems like an easy way of making a hollow body guitar, if perhaps a little wasteful on the wood.

I have made a guitar like this before. It is not unlike the PRS hollowbody way of doing things. The top was carved on the inside but I left a block around the neck pickup area to glue the neck into. The rest was hollowed out with a side and back thickness of about 3/8". PRS guitars and the like have the block running all way to the bridge so they can use a tune-o-matic style. I used an archtop bridge.

Here is a pic of the inside of my guitar.

The 335 style does use a laminated top and back, both arched. The sides are made like an acoustic guitar but there is a block that runs the length of the body connecting the neck and tail of the guitar.

The advantages of having a solid block in the middle would be a decrease in feedback, more structurally stable body (less susceptable ot moisture, string tension, etc), and the tone, if you perefer it.

The advantage of the way I made mine is the jazz tone of the archtop bridge and tailpiece. You can't really get it without the tailpiece since the strings go over the bridge putting downward pressure on the top totally changing the way the top behaves.

Each style produces a different character of tone. Add in wood differences and the tonal variation increases again. It is a matter of personal preference as far as which is better. They all have good tone if built well.

[KTLguitars]

JamesW: You asked

Is it a good idea then to lacquer all the inside of a hollow guitar to avoid moisture warping?

The Archtop I mentionned earlier is actually laquered all over internally and absolutely not treated carefully- just left on the wall when not played or in the car over night in the winter and directly onto the wall hanger. And it don't warp!

I can't find any reason for not laquering the interior just before gluing the hole thing together - can't harm? I don't think it affects the sound either - maybe if one have the really large ears - but I don't!

[LukeR]

Hello everyone,

My name is Luke, and this is my first post at this forum. I hope everyone is well.

I am wishing to make a 335 type guitar myself (with the solid maple piece down the center, with the hollow 'wings' at the side).

I am planning to make it a Les Paul shape, without any f holes. I had originally planned to make the top and back (and sides) of the guitar from mahogany(with the maple piece down the center), so the guitar would use the same wood as a Les Paul. (This way, I thought, by having a lot of mahogany involved, it may also retain a touch of SG tonality).

Does using these woods in this way sound like a good idea?

Thank you very much,

Sincerly,

Luke

[KTLguitars]

Hi and welcome Luke,

I think that could be a good consept - kind of combining the best of each of the three types!

As you are planning to use mahogany for the wings - you should either make them laminated or a bit thicker than normal. The mahogany is fairly brittle, so thin "wings" might be more prone to accidental damage.

(Personally I would have gone for solid mahogany wings, but making them a little thicker, about 8mm (about 5/16 inch) should do)

All the best with your project!

Knut Tore

[LukeR]

Hi Knut Tore,

thanks for the welcome! I had actually planned on using sloid mahogany for the wings, a bit thicker, as you have said.

Do you recommend filling the wings with stuffing or material (cloth or sytrofome)of some kind? there will be no f holes, so it wouldnt be at all visible, but I have heard that this can stop feedback.

do you reckon its worth it?

thanks again for the welcome- it is much appreciated.

Sincerely,

Luke

[KTLguitars]

Hi Luke,

I don't actually know much about filling and how it would work on an enclosed chambered guitar with a solid center piece.

As a guess I would say that the solid maple center piece makes all relations between the neck, the string ancoring at the bridge and the pick-ups very rigid and therefore I can't see that stuffing the body can make much difference.

More scientifically: I would think that the wings will be (compared to a regular archtop acoustic) fairly stiff (small and rigid) thus giving the body a fairly high resonant frequency, so it shouldn't be very susceptible to feedback anyway.

Personally I don't think that I had stuffed it!

-and if you don't fill it know, you can make f-holes later on if you for some reason change your mind...

All the best

Knut Tore

[LukeR]

THank you once again!

I shall follow your advice.

Cheers,

Luke

[Dave I]

A guitar like that out of solid wood is going to have more of a tonal range than the laminated tops variety. It does have to do with the resonant character of a solid piece versus one that is muted and restrained by laminations. Compare the tap tone of a piece of plywood with a piece of solid wood and you get the idea.

How much of that will come through an amp? I play rock and am interested in the ES-335 style of guitar (along with about a dozen others), and am not sure how much of an impact it will make between a laminate top/bottom/sides and the solid wood with carved archtop. Granted it will make a difference, but how much through a rock amp clean or with overdrive (not gobs of high-gain distortion, but the clean-to-nicely broken up stuff)?

Also, are the sides, back, and top of the ES-335 laminate, or just the top?

-Cheers

Edited November 6, 2007 by Dave I

[Myka Guitars]

A guitar like that out of solid wood is going to have more of a tonal range than the laminated tops variety. It does have to do with the resonant character of a solid piece versus one that is muted and restrained by laminations. Compare the tap tone of a piece of plywood with a piece of solid wood and you get the idea.

How much of that will come through an amp? I play rock and am interested in the ES-335 style of guitar (along with about a dozen others), and am not sure how much of an impact it will make between a laminate top/bottom/sides and the solid wood with carved archtop. Granted it will make a difference, but how much through a rock amp clean or with overdrive (not gobs of high-gain distortion, but the clean-to-nicely broken up stuff)?

Also, are the sides, back, and top of the ES-335 laminate, or just the top?

-Cheers

With a good set of pickups it will all come through the amp. The wood and strings of a well built guitar are directly coupled together. This relationship is why the wood and construction methods change everything about the tonal character of the guitar. The cycle is like this: the strings drive the body and neck which sustains and resonates with the strings. This resonance and sustain then adds it's own filtered or enhanced vibration back into the strings which is picked up by the pickups and drives the wood again. Then the cycle begins again. It's all about acoustic coupling and if done right (good, clean joinery) the guitar will be very different from a laminated top guitar.

~David

[Dave I]

With a good set of pickups it will all come through the amp . . . . It's all about acoustic coupling and if done right (good, clean joinery) the guitar will be very different from a laminated top guitar.

~David

O.k., so is it EVERY preferable to have a laminate top over a carved archtop and solid wood sides/back? If so when? If not, why doesn't Gibson (and others) do carved tops? I would guess the laminates are cheaper or easier but that would just be a guess.

Also, what would the the difference tonally between a traditional archtop semi-hollow/semi-acoustic (steamed/bent solid-wood front/sides/back archtop) vs. solid back/sides w/ laminate semi-hollow archtop, vs. entirely laminated semi-hollow archtop? Or the solid wood blank hollowed out with some sort of top blued on (laminate or otherwise)? Are there any generalities between those four formats? In other words, why would I not just make two huge chambers in a Maple blank, leaving in a block in the middle to deter feedback, and glue/carve a maple top over it all, as opposed to doing a more traditional archtop build? If there is a convenient link/thread explaining this, feel free to just tell me where to look.

-Cheers

Edited November 6, 2007 by Dave I

[Myka Guitars]

As to why doesn't Gibson (or other manufacturers) use solid carved tops I think that answer is clear. A laminated top is not only easier to produce than a carved top but also requires less quality wood.

It is all too common to want specific answers to things that don't have specific answers. Think a bit on these concepts and try to understand how things like laminations might affect stiffness, and how hollowbodies made from a larger piece of routed wood with fairly thick back and sides will differ from a thinner acoustic bend side design. Imagine how these changes work with the overall design. Grab some pieces of the same species of wood and cut them to different thicknesses and tap them and listen to them to see how it works. Play a 335 (bent sides-center block-laminated top), and a PRS hollowbody (one piece routed body-carved solid top), and an Ibanez Artcore (laminated everything), and really get a feel for the designs. Once you pick up these instruments with this inside knowledge the differences will become more apparent.

Or you could choose a style and build one and see how it works. Then build another. This is the most intense learning approach and the most rewarding (for me anyway).

~David

[Dave I]

It is all too common to want specific answers to things that don't have specific answers.

For me, at this point it is trying to decide where to start. Try a solid body electric, chambered solid body, semi-hollow or archtop, guitar kit or hand-carve everything, etc. For all I know, in addition to being cheaper, maybe there are some inherent/unexpected tonal qualities a laminate top (a/o bottom a/o sides) adds to various models of guitars that are desirable to some musicians or styles of music. I would kind of doubt it, but it would be a bit rash to assume anything at my level.

Or you could choose a style and build one and see how it works. Then build another. This is the most intense learning approach and the most rewarding (for me anyway).

All I am doing now is gathering information and opinions on various options, then deciding which style and which specs to choose to build first, then kind of go from there. I do appreciate the information though.

-Cheers

[rdiquattro]

When i built my Hollow body guitar i carved the top and back inside and out and i was a little worried about feed back at high volumes .

So what i did was i made the neck with a extra long deep set tennon that goes all the way underneath the bridge pickup .

I also put a solid sound post in that links the top plate to the bottom plate the core of the body is made of a two peices of brazillian mahogany .

www.diquattroguitar.com Instead of routing out the body to make it hollow i cut each half with the bandsaw before glueing the two together .

That saved me a lot of dirty work with router, now the only feedback i get at high volume is form the strings it is fantastic.

[rdiquattro]

When i built my Hollow body guitar i carved the top and back inside and out and i was a little worried about feed back at high volumes .

So what i did was i made the neck with a extra long deep set tennon that goes all the way underneath the bridge pickup .

I also put a solid sound post in that links the top plate to the bottom plate the core of the body is made of a two peices of brazillian mahogany .

www.diquattroguitars.com Instead of routing out the body to make it hollow i cut each half with the bandsaw before glueing the two together .

That saved me a lot of dirty work with router, now the only feedback i get at high volume is form the strings it is fantastic.