killemall8

5 hours ago, Drak said:

Have you ever considered taking one (or two) of them to a luthier in Albuquerque?

I would take it to Pimentel and Sons maybe, seem like pretty cool peoples from the YT's I've seen.

They've been luthiers for ~40-50 years.

Maybe a just a few short months ahead of you...

In other words, turn your Problem into an Opportunity.

 

 

They are the only ones in town, and they dont really offer any other services anymore, from what i hear. I cant check it out though

On 12/15/2020 at 10:41 AM, MiKro said:

Try a different set of strings, brand and size?

mk

Yes tried 3 different brands and 3 different gauges. Obviously the heavier gauges help in standard tuning because there is more tension, but other than that, no difference.

11 hours ago, Gogzs said:

This thread is such a hard read, I'm really a huge fan, specially when you go crazy with the colors (pink/blue/toxic green). Just curious, do you always use the same fret wire? And did anything significant change in your process... new blade for cutting the fret slots etc? I can not accept that this is an issue that can not be solved... wish you were from Europe, I'd pick up one of the problematic ones just to satisfy my curiosity trying to solve this.

Oh also, when you knock on the guitar body/neck with your knuckles, do you hear any rattling/buzzing?

Same fretwire for years. nothing else new at all. Same identical method, aside from new fret leveling beams (which are nicer than my original)

No buzzing when i knock on the guitar.

There is really no other option other than grinding the bottom of the nut down or going deeper with the shelf for the nut.
You will still need a shim in the neck pocket if its that high when the bridge is all the way down.

On 12/10/2020 at 5:04 AM, Gogzs said:

Late to the thread, but... can you pull the frets from one of those buzzing guitars and try to play it fretless and see if it'll buzz? I know it sounds silly, but could it be the strings themselves?

Definitely not the strings themselves. Tried multiple brands, gauges and core types. its definitely fret buzz from the frets, because the last fret doesnt buzz.

11 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

While searching for potential culprits I wasn't aware of I found one article where the guy said that if the guitar still buzzes after everything has been triple checked, it's the nature of that very instrument and has to be accepted... I couldn't find the article now.

However, logically thinking there's always a reason. While searching for the above I found this one: https://www.electricherald.com/fix-fret-buzz/ . You've most likely done everything mentioned there but the last chapter caught my eye. Could it be possible that there's a very subtle twist in the problematic necks?

I could see that causing this issue. but the chances that 20 different necks, made of different woods, all quartersawn in 5 p-7 pieces all have a warp.
Visually i see absolutely no warp. I wish that was it then i could at least lay this to rest.

But, ive given up. a year of researching and tested literally ever. single. day. For a year. I just concede to this. I'll never figure it out and my guitars will remain inconsistent. This one will get refunded.

On 12/2/2020 at 7:24 AM, ScottR said:

I presume you've put a straight edge across the frets and confirmed the string path is not parallel or less than parallel, but slightly rising above the fret plane?

SR

Yes. I just re checked it again. With a straight edge from the first fret to resting on the saddles, the straightedge touches the first fret, and by the 24th there is a 3/32" gap . meaning there is a slope (in the right direction) from the first fret to the 24th.

I just dont know what to do anymore. Ive invested over 6000 in tools this year only to have this issue make me turn around and re sell it all.

10 hours ago, ScottR said:

I  wondered about that. I was thinking in terms of unintentional angle. A fretboard that ended up thicker at the high end or something similar. I sometimes get unintentional results, and had to backtrack to see what happened. Some unexpected angle where there was none planned could give you the issues you are describing.

If that's not it....got got nuthin'

SR

In my head, that is what i picture it being. I go to great lengths to avoid that. Maybe its a form of that, where i cant see it or measure it.

On 11/30/2020 at 7:18 AM, ScottR said:

I went to sleep last night thinking on this. It occurred to me that a neck with a little too much angle would behave just like what you describe. Any wear in your templates that might allow the angle to change so gradually that it wouldn't be noticed until now?

SR

The interesting thing is that these have no neck angle. All of them are flat mounted because the hipshot bridges are low.

12 hours ago, curtisa said:

Fret crowns too flat?

Could you be building necks too stiff, making them difficult to control how and where the relief occurs along their length?

What about taking some measurements of a known good guitar and comparing it against one of your problem ones:

• Use feeler gauges to measure the gap between the underside of the string and the fret in front of a known buzzy fret (eg, if the 3rd position is buzzy when fretted, measure the clearance between the string and 4th fret with the 3rd fretted)
• Compare relief and action given the same setup at all frets. Tabulate the results and compare the two.

I had been using a crowning file that made them a little more overall round than pyramid shaped. I bought 2 different style of crowning files to try after that. Finished crown is less than .5mm

All frets are equally buzzy, so the feeler gauge doesnt help much. No fret buzzes more than others. Its not like some are dead frets and others arent.

but i have wondered, what is the ideal clearance between a fretted fret and the one in front of it?

1 hour ago, curtisa said:

Any chance you're letting the neck flex while you're leveling and giving you a 'false level' on the crowns?

Not that i can tell. 5 and 7 piece necks are super stiff anyway. I also used a precision straight edge to check after and a feeler gauge and there are no gaps

5 hours ago, ADFinlayson said:

I reckon you need to go back to levelling on one of them and get all frets perfectly level with a beam, put strings back on prior to crowning and see what the buzz situation is like. I did actually have a similar issue twice last week. I was doing a refret on my mates les paul and my yellow DC that I just finished. Got them all level on both guitars, crowned, polished up nicely with the dremel and I had a load of buzz on both guitars, the gibbo had a totally dead 14th fret too   so I levelled again, put strings back on and had no buzz, then I did the crown and polish all over again and it's great. My mistake was relying entirely on the disappearance of the Sharpie line and not checking they were level with a fret rocker. 

The guitar that i did the demo with in the video has had them leveled twice, with a beam.

2 hours ago, curtisa said:

You asked for help regarding this issue a while back:

Were any of the ideas discussed in that thread helpful at the time? Note that some of the discussion in that thread will appear a bit disjointed as a number of posts have been deleted.

I would say that the video you've posted, above, makes it a bit difficult to tell exactly what the buzz is. Could just be my interpretation, but you do seem to be playing with a strong picking hand, like you are really digging into the strings. If I play any of my guitars as strongly as it appears you are none of them are buzz free. It's also a bit tricky to tell how bad the buzz is based on only plucking staccato notes. A few sustained single picks may reveal more.

Is it possible that you're over-leveling the frets at the nut-end of the neck? If you were to level the frets such that the crowns gradually got higher towards the bridge you'd probably never pick it up using the 'traditional' methods - a fret rocker wouldn't show you anything as no fret would be higher than the one adjacent to it, a straightedge laid on the fret tops wouldn't show anything unusual as all you're doing is proving the fret crowns are the same height relative to themselves, leveling the frets wouldn't change anything as they'd be level with respect to themselves but not to the fretboard surface. But if each fret crown was progressively higher than the previous one you might see something like buzzing at all positions except the 24th, even with reasonable amounts of neck relief and action. The only clue you might see is that the action above the fret crowns may increase from the nut to about the middle of the neck as you'd normally expect, but then stay constant for the remainder of the length of the neck instead of gradually creeping higher.

Unfortunately not. I never figured that guitar out. Same issue though, on a bunch since then.

I purposely level the higher frets more than the lower frets. I always start at the higher frets so i know for sure they have less taken off . I usually dont even level the first fret.

Its just mind blowing. I dont understand how people can rough in a radius with a 4" block, smack in frets with a hammer, level and not crown, and it doesnt buzz. But i spend hours on my fretwork and they look immaculate, and they buzz on every fret .

In reference to my picking, yes i am picking hard in the video. but even lightly picking the notes die out fast. I even compared it to a facotry guitar with one of my friends and his doesnt buzz at all at that same action height.

3 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

So it's always the next fret and you're sure that it's a fret... That would explain why the last fret rings cleanly. And you even have a fall away both on the fingerboard and the frets...

On an acoustic I'd suspect the common neck joint hump but not on an electric guitar.

One option that would explain the next fret until the last one issue might be that the neck break angle is too steep. That should be visible, though. One should see even without measuring if the string height on the first fret is equal or higher than that on the 12th or 16th fret before the fall away starts.

Also, if the neck/fretboard was heavily S-shaped that might cause a similar issue but it would be easy to check with a straightedge which you've done.

Have you tried eliminating all other potentially buzzing/rattling elements i.e. taken all the electronics out. Pickups, wiring, pots, switches, everything?

 

Again, it does it with no other hardware other than the bridge and tuners on. And its happened identically with over 10 guitars.

43 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

Double Ouch!

You've pretty much checked for every culprit mentioned in the book.

Loose tuning pegs? Although that shouldn't affect fretted notes.

Bridge saddles leaning to each other rather than standing on the adjustment screws?

Bridge being partially loose? Not likely, but what if there's a screw that is rather lifting the bridge than attaching it? That could be possible if the bridge screw holes are tight.

Humidity and temperature? I believe you already know more about it than I'll ever learn.

Ball ends not sitting tight in the bottom of the ferrules (in a string through)?

Again, just trying to thing of any potential issues without actually knowing anything...

 

All of those things are solid. The real problem is no matter which fret i have pressed, the string partially hits the fret in front of it and makes it buzz.

9 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

Ouch!

You're obviously far more experienced than I'll ever be so take my pondering with some salt.

That sounds like a fret buzz indeed.

Have you tried lowering the last fret only? That's a PITA to check since there's no reference point for a fret rocker and even with a straight edge laid on the frets the height difference can bee too subtle to be seen as the polished metal reflects the light coming between the fingerboard and the frets.

If lowering the very last fret doesn't help, other potential culprits are the pickups but you've most likely set them low enough already.

If the leaving edge of the bridge saddles is off, it can cause buzz as well.

I actually have fall away milled into both the fretboard and the frets themselves. The last fret is a little lower than all of the other frets.

The buzz happens with no pickups in the guitar and with 2 different types of bridges.

4 hours ago, ADFinlayson said:

Have you tried putting any relief in the neck, could it be too flat or back bowed? What about the bridge, are the saddles causing a vibration? That's the only other point that's totally consistent when you're playing every fret, and what about string gauge/scale/tuning? if they're low gauge strings tuned down, they will be at lower tension and potentially causing buzz. Obviously I am only speculating, but it might be worth swapping the bridge out with a different model and/or changing string gauges to eliminate a couple of things as well as truss rod adjustments. 

Yes, ive tried with both a relatively flat neck and with extreme relief.

Not a vibration issue, as its happend on multiple guitars with different bridges.

All in standard tuning, standard 10-46. 10-52 helps a little bit since there is more tension, but still noticeable.

If you look at my build thread in the in progress section, you can see probably 10 different fretboard woods from palemoon ebony, wenge, ziricote, paduak, and zebrawood

So it takes a lot for me to post this. If any potential customers see this, my career is over. But i need help.
Even back when i built my first few guitars from scratch, i didnt have this problem. I literally use an old rubber mallet to pound in my frets, didnt check with a straight edge, and they played fine. No fretbuzz.

But in the past year, around 17 of my guitars have had this unbearable buzzing.

Not normal buzz like one dead fret or anything. Literally every single fret buzzes the same. The same type of buzzing you get when you lower the action too far.

But even with absurdly high action, it still buzzes.

Ive used multiple straight edges, leveling files and crowning files. And nothing makes a difference.

If i cant figure this out, i cant keep building.

Some of them are still usable, but not ideal.

2 of them that ive made are literally unplayable. Not a single note except the last fret doesnt have buzz. No matter how much fall away i apply, the string still hits the fret before it.

It literally doesnt even seem possible. But i cant find my way around it and it is making me lose my mind.

Last fall i made 4 guitars in a row that were the exact opposite. I couldnt even get them to buzz if i lowered the action beyond what is considered low. And Ive build them all in an identical method.

Here is what im describing:

22 hours ago, PRSpoggers said:

Do you mean support by support while drying? Or support while on the guitar?

Not on the guitar. I mean how you have it in the drying rack. It needs to have either weight on it or be on a flat surface or it will twist and cup as it dries.

I would support the thinner wood with something stiffer and flat. It will warp or twist if you dont.

4 hours ago, Prostheta said:

Yes, it does @ScottR. The piece I have had some growth defects and inclusions in proximity that manifested themselves as strange distortions much like that. What finish is going on that one, @killemall8?

On the zebrawood top?
I plan on just oiling that one. Zebrawood takes oil really well.

10 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

That may well be true. However we don't have routing templates for necks. My previous bolt-on neck pocket was routed using a template made by our Master for his commercial builds, intended to be used with a bushing and a 10 mm bit. The neck drawing templates match with the originals which obviously aren't metric so rounding the edges has to be made by eye. That's the reason why I went square and used a makeshift template. Also as the wood is very soft it's easy to chisel the corners after routing. 

I get that. but you can make one. Only takes a few minutes

Ive found that its much cleaner and easier to make the corners of a neck pocket a 1/2 radius, and it will match your bearing bit.

3 hours ago, ScottR said:

That's what always holds me back. I've never sprayed a coat of finish that didn't need at least a little leveling.

SR

it leveled out 99% i would say