mistermikev

1 hour ago, Bizman62 said:

If we take the string line as our secondary goal and the line 2 mm below that, and imagine the bridge as a hinge... Wouldn't drawing that give us any neck break angle? The lines could then be measured and transferred to any means of cutting the angle to a plane top. The method can as well be a slat slanting a plane as a slanted router jig. Very basic graphics, just moving a line a certain amount upwards.

funny, I started to write exactly that at one point, obviously some angles are more use-able than others... as your pickups would all of the sudden be too far below the strings... or on the other side, your neck would be thru the bottom of the guitar... but yes... this is exactly what I was getting at originally - really ANY angle CAN work... so what are the reasons to choose one over the others?

so far I've heard the argument for 'easier ie remove less material', and for 'max adjustment ie 4.5deg'.  Perhaps someone out there would feel that a 5degree is more ergonomic... I'm not sure.  Perhaps one would chose the corresponding break to be historically accurate... and those are all the reasons I can think of.

so... thank you bizman, and you ad for your input.  I'm going to play with my drawing tonight and factor in a slightly lower  bridge for the countersunk studs and deeper slots for strings... and add the typical action and refigure.  also going to measure some guitars... then I'm going to put all the possible angles in a hat and randomly draw one (hehe).

thanks again.

1 minute ago, Bizman62 said:

It doesn't show as a full size on my monitor. Only 20" or so. Would real size be better wording?

 

Clearly I'm making a 20" full scale instrument - you gotta problem with that?  I have very small-large hands.

" should see a scaled full size drawing " it's full size and scaled what's the confusion?  jk - kind of a contradiction huh?  it was full size but I scaled it down as it's a rather large space soak otherwise but the jist is... I def layed out my stuff full size. 

pretty sure the real size is still going to be bigger than 20" - but if you are more comfortable with that - ok by me!  haha!

I appreciate you reading between the lines, and your response - so thank you.

i could see that. 

4 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said:

yes I put in a second angle between to smooth that transition, but it's not an unknown angle, it's half of the first angle, whatever that is  

I'm not good with words.... and numbers... or concepts... or retention... it's not MY fault.  for the record... I assume after you blend it in it is less of a known angle and more of a unknown radius... so that must have been what I meant?  hehe.

3 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said:

4.5º - 5º IMO is not comfortable at all (it feels like playing with your right hand way out in front of you), and is really not necessary, you only have to see how high the tunomatic sits on a les paul. Yes I said above I tend to recess the bridge studs for that extra 1mm of adjustability, but I think it looks neater too. The reason (as I see it) for why Gibson have such a huge break angle, is because the fretboard sits directly onto the body, Fender, PRS etc have less angle because the fretboard sits slightly above the level of the body, reducing the need for the angle. 

If you're using your angle-router-jig-thingy, you could start with a shallower angle, offer up a straight edge and the bridge and see how it looks, and go up slightly until you get an angle you're happy with. 

interesting.  I understand that later les pauls use 5 deg... earlier used anything from 2.5-3.5.  I have a modern one and like it a lot... but I'm not sure how much of what I'm liking is the angle! 

also, interesting - sounds like you are saying (AD) that you are putting a secondary unknown angle on after... to smooth the transition between flat and the angled neck. 

On a les paul -they often do the back of the guitar in red (will do on mine)... pretty sure it would not only be hard to finish but look wonky to have that red carrying on to the front of the guitar below the binding on the neck.  Perhaps a contributing factor to how they do it  as you've mentioned

agreed on the countersink.  think I'll do that.

food for thought... have to go measure the angles on a few of my guitars.  thanks again for the replies.

14 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said:

This is how I do it. A 6mm-7mm flat piece of wood stuck to the bridge position, then plane down the front, gradually bringing the blade out until I'm taking material up to the back of the neck pick up route, then replace the block with one half the thickness and plane between the neck and bridge pickup to do another ramp 1/2 the angle of the first, then I round them over so it's nice a smooth. a 6-7mm block will give you a 2 - 2.5º angle which is plenty for a tunomatic or wraparound bridge. I also recess the studs as you mentioned above. The whole process only takes about 10 mins or so when the top is already carved because there is very little material to remove.

thanks AD, I appreciate the reply.  What I'm gathering from both your posts is you chose this method because it's the least amount of work according to how you do it.  That's a solid reason. 

For me... it's not going to be more more/less work to do 2.5deg vs 5deg as I'm going to remove all material with my router.  So I wonder... is 4.5 deg more comfy?  does 2.5 sound better because the pickup sits further in the body?  who knows.

do either of you counter sink the lip on your studs? (sorry, you recess the studs AD)

42 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

Make a full size drawing from the side. Start with the body, draw the 16 mm high bridge and the end of the fretboard. Take a long ruler and draw a line from the bridge over the end of the fretboard including the height of the frets and the clearance. That line will take you to the nut as a string would. Draw another parallel line excluding the frets and clearance and you'll get your fretboard.
 

Like so:

thank you for the reply.  while I do appreciate your drawing... see above - full size drawing - is that not showing up?  You should see a scaled full size drawing sideview of my tele neck. 

My issue is not that I can't determine an angle... it's that I believe one could make any angle from 2.5deg to 5 degree work... so which one?  Indecision... depending on how deep I want to set my neck into the guitar, where I want to make the angle start, I have played with my drawing and seen that there really isn't ONE answer.  

the way you are doing above... means your fretboard will be flush with the body at the end... but it doesn't HAVE to be. (EDIT - in other words the fretboard will be flush with the unplaned body height)

what in the wild world of sports kind of wood/finish is that (white?)... pretty cool.  nice work.

so got my gotoh bridge... working out the angle for my 'les flaws'.  It occurs to me that there are a lot is a lot of 'slop' that depending on how you do it you could choose many angles... so I am a bit unsure of myself due to this.  Let me try to illiterate that:

I could counter sink my studs... this will make perhaps a 1mm dif.

I could change the break point... I hear folks talk about this a lot... on a lp it looks to me like they shave off material up to halfway in between the two pickups.  iow, I could make the back of my fretboard even with the existing top right at the end of the fretboard, or I could lower the fretboard and take off more material as shown in my drawing below with the grey bar.  I've opted to do this in my design. 

the gotoh bridge is 15mm at center saddle if I include the .5mm of the adjustment wheel that sits below the lowest point on the bridge.  However, these saddles aren't really grooved yet.  I could probably do anywhere from a .5mm slot to a 2mm slot depth.

in my drawing below, I'm doing a 4.5deg angle, I'm figuring 16mm for my gotoh bridge, and I've figured in a .75" top, and figuring I would end up with a top thickness of .42 after planing at the sm 4.5deg angle 5.837" into the body.  May have to revise as I contemplate at least 1mm slot in the saddle... but tell me anything you can think of about this, how you navigate the items I've mentioned, and anything I'm missing.

breakangle.pdf

Whatever you celebrate, whatever you think of me, truly hope you are surrounded by family and friends today/tomorrow, and here's to good things your way.  Thanks for allowing me to be part of this community!

edit - oh, and happy hour.

nicely done.  I like the little blondes spots showing thru.  good job on the f hole.  Not sure if those knobs quite do the rest of the guitar justice but that's just my humble o.

I'm all for chambered body.  I like the feel of a thick guitar with the weight of a thin guitar myself.  Northern ash is def going to require 'something' to make it light, if that's your goal. 

afa tonewood... follow your heart but let your head lead the way.  There is no proving if something sounds better... so stating either side of the coin as fact, or believing that side as fact... without acknowledging the possibility of error, is the only way you can go wrong IMO. 

look fwd to seeing your build - love me some ash!

49 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

I work in a wood manufacturing factory where there's a lot of people around me all of the time. Situational awareness means that you are rarely surprised when routing, feeding a spindle moulder or whatever. I did however manage to get kickback from one of those stupid small Festool KS60 mitre saws, shooting an offcut of white Oak eight metres or so across the shop floor and straight in front of my supervisor Kaisa's feet. This surprised her, but not me. Those smaller Kapex saws are terrible for kickback, and I know just how to make them do it. 

Being in a shop there is a certain acceptance that something can happen... I'm not so sure that is there with the wife, but then perhaps some of the employees where you work didn't know before (I bet they know now). 

When I was in high school I worked at a place where I was brutalized for being a newbie.  Sent me to look for the 'sky jack' and 'board stretcher' and such.  One of the guys would use a paper clip to pull back the safety mechanism on the brad gun, and he'd shoot you in the ass with 2 1/2" brads.  Unfortunately they don't make safety goggles for your butt.  at 50ft those things stung like a bb gun.  I was just a sander so no real danger there... but the humility.  aaahhh... good times.

for the record... if I offended anyone with my initial, or other comments - I apologize.  I was a little wound up for sure. 

26 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Well...there is that too

 

good news is - no one got hurt.  I very much appreciate your and everyone's input.

18 minutes ago, MiKro said:

going on 43 years.

holy crapola... congratulations.  You don't make it that far without practicing "yes dear" so my hats off.

Just now, Andyjr1515 said:

I'm going to come at this from a very different direction - especially as the emotion of the moment will, hopefully, have faded a touch 

Most of my career has been managing industrial operations where health and safety has to be part and parcel of everything that is done.  In the latter years of my career, I started getting involved significantly in EHS (Environment, Health and Safety) within the whole Group and, with it, did detailed work with the various teams round the world to eliminate injuries. 

With a workforce of 23,000 people round the world in some very hazardous environments, there were, nevertheless, near-misses, actual injuries and (thankfully very) occasionally fatalities.  And a critical method for eliminating the repeat of an injury was to find the REAL root cause and eliminate that. 

I won't bore everyone with the techniques of doing that but my conclusion of the root cause here, had there been an injury, is probably not the obvious one: It is that there was no way of safely attracting your attention when you were working.

It happened to be your wife.  It could have been a next door neighbour; a postal worker; a next door neighbours child.  It could have been important and urgent.

Worth a ponder?

 

Thank you for your input Andy - given your obvious experience with that, I respect that opinion and will take a moment to look inward, but that only addresses half the problem.

I didn't have an accident.  I didn't flinch, didn't even take my focus off of the router - just consciously decided to stop. I did safely stop.  That doesn't put safety goggles on my wife.

I think there is merit in trying to prevent the scenario: Ex. I remove all metal tools from my bench when I work with a router because if I slip it could create a lethal projectile.  Sure, not slipping is a good way to prevent that too.

I can prevent her from opening that door with a lock... I can't guarantee she will put on safety glasses if she opens that door (in fact I know she won't).  We're dealing with a hostile witness/employee here... one whom I love and don't want to see get hurt.  I also don't want to see myself get hurt and no matter how safe you are - you can't guarantee it won't catch you eventually.

17 minutes ago, Crusader said:

I've been thinking of what Gibson call a "Light Burst"

that'd be sweet.  Look fwd to stealing tips from that so - get on it!

1 hour ago, Crusader said:

Sometimes I'm using a long router bit (ie. for a skunk stripe) and when I'm finished the question is - Do I turn it off and leave it in while holding the router firmly, or take it out? Sometimes no matter how careful I am I nick the edge if I take it out while its still spinning........Having someone come into the shed at a moment like that could be catastrophic

As for people not listening to advice or suggestions, I have experienced this and I've heard my father complain about it as well. One time a friend asked me to explain modes and he said he didn't get it. Then the next day he was all excited about an explanation he saw on a video and he got it. He just didn't want to understand my explanation

My father had numerous situations in the building trade where "the bloke next door" had better advice than him even though he'd had 40 years experience in the business

This "phenomenon" has nothing to do with race or gender, I don't know what it is. Sometimes people just get a bee in their bonnet and they just don't want to listen to you

I hear ya... I try to let the router spin down before moving it but I'm guilty of breaking my own rule all the time. 

afa advice - sometimes it's less about the advice or sender and more about if the receiver is in the right space to learn it.  Lots of different types of smart in the world and many are not recognizable to each other.

40 minutes ago, Crusader said:

...getting mixed up with "Whiskey Gin and Brandy"?

ya got to love the George.  He used to play almost every year at summerfest in milw, wi so I've been fortunate to see him live many times.   sorry, didn't mean to derail you.  That guitar looks awesome.  What color you goin' with? 

Anywho, i'll be watching and thank you again for sharing.

27 minutes ago, Crusader said:

A White Falcon - are you sure? I thought George used an ES-125 with P90's

i stand corrected... just looked it up... es125.  for some reason I thought it was a falcon.  Guess I should have held off on that 1 bourban, scotch and beer.

I don't do much for videos of me working... altho I did do one recently of a top join... just too much of a distraction while working.  I've got quite a few videos on youtube of me demoing ( https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCktim1mj88l9JAwQy4KB4eg  ) ... but anyway my point was just that I do document things fairly well with pictures/explanations, and this paint process will be there should you desire to see it.

afa a shop... might check your neighborhood for a local highschool or univ that does woodworking courses just to gain access to a spot.  I know in AZ it's becoming more popular to have a communal woodshop in various gated communities.  There's quite a few fellows here who seem to have those sort of hookups so maybe they'll chime in.

1 hour ago, MiKro said:

My wife understands the DANGER. She stays away when the light is on. I even use it when I am on the PC working on CAD stuff. I hate to be distracted on that, it can be the difference of me putting the decimal in the wrong place. She may leave me a txt message if she is leaving or something. LOL!!!

Merry Christmas All,

MK

right on, sounds like a very understanding wife.  how long you been together?  We're creeping up on 25yrs.  With most things there's a lot of understanding between us and she's def better than I deserve. 

7 minutes ago, MiKro said:

Put a red light on the door inside for anyone to see. When it is on DO NOT ENTER.

Has worked wonders most of the time. LOL!!!

 

Unfortunately, it's not that she isn't aware of the situation... she just doesn't acknowledge that it's a danger... or perhaps doesn't care.  That's the baffling thing.  Honestly, I wouldn't want to open the door to someone running a router even if I knew they were totally safety conscious, never flinched, and waited for the router to wind down every time they used it - hehe.

9 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

I have noticed similar behaviour on the other forum I'm following. I may be the first one to answer a computing related question, followed by a bunch of less savvy contributors. Then, on day two or three someone a fellow countryman of the OP gives the same answer I already had given and he gets the kudos. So aside of not listening some people aren't reading.

you know what they say: "want to get your idea accepted at work?  convince the boss it's his/hers."

5 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said:

They don't listen, full stop.

I was having a similar conversation with my band mates the other week - We tell them something and they either ignore it or dismiss it, but someone else, someone at work etc, their parents; will tell them the exact same thing and they will come home and tell you all about it as if it's gospel while inside your head you're screaming at them that you already f%^king told them that 3 times.

Locking the door however is a dumb arse idea (no offence) because if you did have a serious accident, you're f!^ked.

well, on the one hand lets not generalize about all women as that would be sexist... on the other you are totally right in my experience, lol!  I suppose that may be true of any of us at any given time.  I have fine tuned ears but somehow cannot hear anything in the freq range of my wifes voice.

afa locking the door - you don't keep your cell phone in your pocket at all times while woodworking?  I do.  I freq am out there while my wife is gone so... not sure how an unlocked door helps me there but... I see what you are saying - might not have a free hand while keeping pressure on the artery!