mistermikev

1 minute ago, mistermikev said:

interesting... I'm hearing a difference... but it might have something to do with your test picker  and how consistent it is?  listening to blackwood vs tas oak... the front of the note is varying quite a bit to my ears.  that second pluck... it's more percussive.  the first pluck seems to ramp up... I can't really tell if it's doing it consistently but those first two I def notice it.  def the second pluck sounds louder.  

edit - also sounds much nicer... recording quality is much improved here it seems.

interesting... I'm hearing a difference... but it might have something to do with your test picker  and how consistent it is?  listening to blackwood vs tas oak... the front of the note is varying quite a bit to my ears.  that second pluck... it's more percussive.  the first pluck seems to ramp up... I can't really tell if it's doing it consistently but those first two I def notice it.  def the second pluck sounds louder.  

6 hours ago, curtisa said:

If we're talking about file '04 - Pine vs Tas Oak', then yes - correct. The samples always alternate between the two. There is no randomising going on. So what is being played in the recording is:

• Low E pluck pine, Low E pluck tas oak, pause
• Low E pluck pine, Low E pluck tas oak, pause
• Low E pluck pine, Low E pluck tas oak, pause
• D pluck pine, D pluck tas oak, pause
• D pluck pine, D pluck tas oak, pause
• D pluck pine, D pluck tas oak, pause
• High E pluck pine, High E pluck tas oak, pause
• High E pluck pine, High E pluck tas oak, pause
• High E pluck pine, High E pluck tas oak, end of file.

I would suggest that if you are hearing something different between pairs of plucks that can't be consistently identified as one or the other within each pair (eg, you can reliably identify the first pluck in each pair always sounds darker than the second) it is minute differences between the plucks produced by the robo-picker. Two plucks will never be 100% clones of each other no matter how good the mechanism is, but they will be more consistent than any human can manage, which was my main intention here.

If there is something intrinsic about the two timbers that makes pine sound different to tas oak (or ash vs alder, or mahogany vs basswood, or poplar vs black limba etc) it should stick out like crazy each and every time rather than flip randomly between sample A and B within each pair. If the running order of the samples does not change and they sound appreciably different then the 'tonewood' theory should make it easy to identify the two samples when played back-to-back.

 

The raw recordings are identical, just that the clean file is fed through the amp sim to generate the 'amped' version (my apologies if the amp sim doesn't sound so crash hot, I just grabbed the first one I could find in my DAW and left all the controls at 12 o'clock). The amped version does not use a unique group of string samples compared to the clean version. Again, if you've managed to identify that pairs of plucks are different but the difference within each pair is not consistent, I'm tipping microscopic differences in the motion of the string once plucked by the robot. However, given that the amped and non-amped recordings utilise the same base playback file, if what you can hear is (assuming I've understood your explanation correctly):

• Amped version of low-E strings: (two samples are different), (two samples are the same), (two samples are the same)
• Clean version of low-E strings: (two samples are the same), (two samples are the same), (two samples are different)

Then perhaps it suggests that the samples cannot be reliably distinguished, as the <different> samples should have fallen in the same position in both recordings.

yes, that is what I heard.... or at least what I thought I heard!  and yes... it seems I did understand your original description and def should NOT be hearing any difference.  so in summary... think it means there is not a difference.  

On 5/3/2021 at 11:50 PM, curtisa said:

OK, time for a controversial one. Radiata pine vs Tasmanian Oak - what can you hear?

Stats for the test pieces used:

• Two planks cut and dressed to same dimensions of 840mm x 65mm x 25mm, one in radiata pine and one from the tas oak used for all the previous tests.
• Pine plank weighs 650 grams, the tas oak weighs 1140 grams
• Typical Janka hardnesses for radiata pine and tas oak are 3200N and 6000N respectively
• Pickup recess milled to the same dimensions at the same location in both planks
• Scale length 25" on both test pieces, with the bridge, nut and string lock at the same positions on both.
• Same strings, hardware, pickup and electronics used for each test.
• Pickup to string distance checked for consistency between each test using the wooden feeler gauge mentioned earlier
• Each string checked for tune using the Peterson strobe tuner before each test
• Both planks resting on rubber pads positioned at the same locations for each test
• Robo-picker positioned at the same position along the string and with the same amount of 'pick engagement' for each test

The attached WAV file illustrate 3x groups of strikes of a low-E, a D and a high-E using the robo-picker. The string strikes are arranged in pairs, the first sample in each pair is the pine, the second being tas oak. There's also the amp-sim'ed version if you want a more real-life comparison.

Have at it.

04 Pine vs Tas Oak + Amp.wav 7.4 MB · 2 downloads 04 Pine vs Tas Oak.wav 7.4 MB · 4 downloads

well... I don't want to hear a dif cause I'm afraid of backlash.  I don't think I have golden ears or anything... listening to the amp version (first of all sounds like dog poo poo what is that buzzing???).  the first two strikes of the low e... the second one is darker.  so... there are two strikes, then hard stop... then two darker strikes. right at the begining.  then a third set of two dark strikes.  if I understand you correctly this does not match with what you told me.  i think you said that each strike is alternating?  set 2 and 3, of 2 strikes each, sound a small amount dif.  no idea what I'm listening too and fully aware of putting my ears out on a limb.  perhaps placebo, perhaps imagining things... perhaps just an anomaly.  I jumped around a bit to see if I was really convicted about what I heard and I think my orig take describes it accurately as I can.  d strings sounds pretty consistent.  can't really hear anything in the high e either.  the two strikes within each pair - I can't distinguish anything there.  

clean sound - third set of two low e's sounds different than first two sets.  again, fully putting myself out there... this is my honest interpretation whether it makes me a retard or not.  doesn't exactly sound 'darker' but maybe... flabbier?  again the set of two strikes sounds fairly consistent.  

again, can't tell if there is any difference on the upper strings at all.  

28 minutes ago, Markintosh said:

Yeah, I guess I will wait for the tools and will see if it comes off first:) Hopefully hardware stores will be open in June (we are under lockdown in Ontario, again)

right on.  I don't know of too many GOOD solutions to remove a stripped truss nut.  in theory you could put lock tite on a socket and let it set... and remove it that way but boy... if that goes wrong it could be bad!

looking good.  glad to see an update.  can't wait to see it in color.

14 minutes ago, Markintosh said:

I know this is a very old discussion, but hopefully you can share some info. I bought RBX170 bass (not sure what year — blue and unfinished maple neck with rosewood fretboard). During the setup I find out that truss rod nut is completely stripped:( I ordered some tools and I hopefully will be able to remove the nut. I would like to buy a replacement nut, but can't find any info about truss rod tread diameter or nut specs. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

not sure this is going to help much... as it would seem like a unicorn to be able to buy a replacement... but if you can take the nut off w/o damaging it you could take it in to local hardware store and figure out the thread size.  then you MIGHT be able to find a purpose specific nut for it.  I have not seen much in the way of truss nuts but stew mac has some...

https://www.stewmac.com/SiteSearch/?search=truss nut

16 minutes ago, ScottR said:

You have no idea what a pain in the ass it is to sand cleavage...due to her unique anatomy, her head keeps getting in the way.

SR

must be hard to stay focus'd too!

7 hours ago, curtisa said:

OK, time for a controversial one. Radiata pine vs Tasmanian Oak - what can you hear?

Stats for the test pieces used:

• Two planks cut and dressed to same dimensions of 840mm x 65mm x 25mm, one in radiata pine and one from the tas oak used for all the previous tests.
• Pine plank weighs 650 grams, the tas oak weighs 1140 grams
• Typical Janka hardnesses for radiata pine and tas oak are 3200N and 6000N respectively
• Pickup recess milled to the same dimensions at the same location in both planks
• Scale length 25" on both test pieces, with the bridge, nut and string lock at the same positions on both.
• Same strings, hardware, pickup and electronics used for each test.
• Pickup to string distance checked for consistency between each test using the wooden feeler gauge mentioned earlier
• Each string checked for tune using the Peterson strobe tuner before each test
• Both planks resting on rubber pads positioned at the same locations for each test
• Robo-picker positioned at the same position along the string and with the same amount of 'pick engagement' for each test

The attached WAV file illustrate 3x groups of strikes of a low-E, a D and a high-E using the robo-picker. The string strikes are arranged in pairs, the first sample in each pair is the pine, the second being tas oak. There's also the amp-sim'ed version if you want a more real-life comparison.

Have at it.

04 Pine vs Tas Oak + Amp.wav 7.4 MB · 0 downloads 04 Pine vs Tas Oak.wav 7.4 MB · 0 downloads

i so want to listen to this but phone speaker would spoil it for me.  mental note I will dive in after work tonight and respond - thank you so much for doing it!!

EDIT: for the record my confirmation bias is that oak is going to sound very bright in the highs and tight in the lows... pine will be flabby on the low end and dark on the top.  that said I will try to hear them blindly.

On 4/29/2021 at 1:23 AM, curtisa said:

I guess we'd have to draw the line somewhere in terms of practically mimicing a hand holding a pick vs picking the string. I suppose you could go to great lengths to design and build some kind of robotic hand with synthetic 'flesh' to hold the pick that accurately mimics someone's picking action. But you could also begin splitting hairs and say, 'well that's not the way *I* play guitar, your tests are all null and void!' This is more about getting the strings to move in a way that is repeatable and using a tool that a typical player would use to do so. Assessing tonal effects due to a player's picking hand technique is well beyond the scope of this test rig.

I was explicitly trying to avoid the variations that might be encountered in trying to excite the strings in some of the Youtube tonewood comparison videos that seem to have received lots of attention over the years:

• This one by our old mate Ola Strandberg is interesting, but the method that was used to get the strings moving was to allow a ruler to swing down under gravity and 'hammer' the string, effectively turning the guitar into a piano or dulcimer, which is not how anyone plays an electric guitar. There's also inconsistency between some string strikes within the same wood samples that (to me at least) raises some doubt that it's possible to conclude each timber sample is actually sonically different.
• This old favourite is commonly cited, and while the claim is that the two guitars differ only by body material, the biggest difference I can see is that there's two different people playing the instruments. You'd also need to consider any differences in the electrical characteristics of the pickups and electronics and the proximity of one player to the amp vs the other (acoustic feedback?), amongst other things.
• Another one that seems to pop up occasionally also suffers from the human factor. It's clear that the same riffs are being played differently each time, which changes the validity of the comparison. Sometimes the samples sound the same between timbers, sometimes they sound noticably different.

i think I might have a slightly used latex fist... perhaps mount the pick in that?  lemme know if you want a send (hehe).

seriously I think as much could be compensated in the pick itself.  I know that when i strum an acoustic with a fender thin pick... zero resistance... place the sm thing with a dunlop 2mm and all the resistance is in the hand.  I believe I have some picks that have a thinner pivot point between the thumb grip and the tip... I think something like that, or just a fender thin... would mitigate any hand movement.

all that said... I think your actuator is pretty sophisticated.  reminds me of "house on the rock" which has been a fascination of mine forever... have been there several times.  For those who don't know... it's a house the was built (as I recall) by one man... thousands of mechanical instruments inside it and they play some pretty complex tunes.  oddly, less robotic sounding than what you might get just loading some classical piece into midi and playing back on a generic soundcard.  Perhaps I'm romanticizing it.

I completely support where you were already headed... but if you want the fist just say so!

wow man... the detail of the cutout for her dress/cleavage... that is amazing work.  reminds me of those crazy stone carvers that could make it look like a transparent veil was over the face.  incredible attention to detail.  

also, now i've seen her soul(s).

seen lots of wood pickguards, folks using records, license plates, carbon fibre, metal - all sorts of things.  my guess is that trad ceramic would be very brittle in a thickness that would lend itself to a pickguard... but no reason it couldn't be reinforced with fiberglass webbing or other.  I'll stop short of discussions on whether plastic pickguards contribute to sound.

I have a couple of build threads here where I do a semi hollow with a radius top/back. I just cut the semi hollow, then created a jig for my router (with help from many here) that would carve the contour into the body stock, then bent a top over it and glued.

then I do one with semi hollow and a carved top that has more drastic contours. 

might give you some ideas to look at those threadsanyway.  I think it's totally do-able but it's up to your buddy to know his limits... certainly there are lots of folks here who will help with advice if you/he are open to it.

I've used 1/8" tops on semi hollow, 1/4" tops, and a 1" carved top.  def the thinner the more it is going to resonate... but then you have to have careful planning to make sure it is supported and structurally strong.  afa center block... in one of my builds i actually used birdseye inside mahog to mount the neck pickup... honestly didn't notice a huge difference but it doesn't mean you won't.  I think as long as you use good quality hardwoods... it'll sound good but zeroing in on a specific sound is something many hear have spent their lifetime mastering... gotta start out by just making a guess and taking a shot.

i second: black limba is awesome/beautiful.  can't go wrong there!

2 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

I was thinking about history when I woke up this morning. I guess the various engineers in the English language are called such because the early ones really were mech engineers. George Stephenson and his son Robert and other fathers of  'modern' railroads back in the early 1800's were engineers who both built and drove their trains. Same goes for the first cars, aeroplanes and whatever. There's a painting of automobile engineers in long white coats examining a car, IIRC in the Fiat premises in Turin, Italy.

Another thought from this morning: Engineers are people who know why and how something works and can calculate the most cost effective way to create that something, using the optimal amount of materials. Experienced builders can build without those calculations but without them they'd build too strong and heavy just in case.

well that is certainly an interesting piece of trivia.  the thing that I wondered most was 'do they actually wear osh-gosh-b-gosh... and the engineers for our train did!  I grew up a few miles north of oshkosh (that's where that company is) and now have to wonder how they became synonymous with engineers??

1 hour ago, ScottR said:

You do know how much women's shoes cost, right? But you might be onto something. Sending her out to find something in her size could free up a lot of me time. She needs her eyes finished to drive....then there's the whole reaching the pedals and seeing over the steering wheel thing.

Wally is actually here at work with me....and I am getting some serious side eye whilst typing this.

SR

saddly... I am painfully aware... and would prob shock you if I took a pick of "our" closet. 

Fortunately my wife is NOT size 13 shoe... those could get even more spendy.  Might cost eleventy doll hairs.  

reaching pedals... well I just assumed she was chauffeured around... an uptown gall like that.

10 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

By doing I meant physical work, actually building something rather than designing it. That's what I mean. I'm not saying planning and designing is not 'doing" but it requires different skills than hammering or driving or whatever. An engineer knows what type of concrete has to be used, he can calculate the amount needed for a certain strength. But he may not know what it's like to throw the cement and sand and water into a blender, sack by sack, day after day. The Finnish engineers are Bachelors or Masters of Science (Technology). While the term basically means the same in both our languages, our version isn't as wide. We have other names for many of your engineers.

Your railroad engineers actually drive a train, our train drivers aren't engineers. My dad as an agricultural engineer could have been a farmer, actually he was offered a job as a farm manager (?) or steward (?) in Sweden but as I had just started at school my parents decided not to.

sorry, I may have taken some offence to that when I probably shouldn't have.  then again "actually building" - you sun of a motha... designing a project plan IS ACTUALLY building something (hehe)!  well... software engineer generally means you have a bs in cs here and that you've taken a position as a soft eng... similar with chem/mech/elec... but back in the day you could actually learn enough to do those types of jobs w/o ever going to school.  my best friends dad is a great example of that.  worked his way from low level work up to mech engineer.  really smart guy too... knew a LOT about a LOT... but now a days... even if you knew that much... you'd never get in the door. 

anywho it's the difference between the position and the title.  I like to kid myself sometimes that I'm a scientist... (I do have a bachelors of science despite how dumb I might seem!) but I know I'm just a code monkey.  (also code monkey IS my official title)

railroad engineers are engineers because the title is engineer.  they do have to have a lot of mechanical skills as they are the one's who inspect the train and rails... but yeah, not the sm as mech eng.

18 minutes ago, ScottR said:

Yes, I've been building one in my head for months now. I've got this stubborn little oaken prairie gnome that keeps getting in my way. Her time is coming soon....

SR

I thought that might be the case... but didn't want to chance her wrath by mentioning her!!  perhaps you should just do what I do... tell her "you know, you haven't bought yourself a new pair of shoes for a while, huh?"  that ought to free up some 'you' time!!

Just now, Bizman62 said:

My dad is an 'agricultural engineer' trained in Bavaria, Germany. There's no such word in the Finnish language. Our engineers deal with technology and construction, including infrastructure and electronics among a dozen or more subcategories which all are related to some sort of technology. Another thing is that they don't actually do things like driving a train, they either plan or design things or check that things get done as planned. They're bosses, in one word.

"they don't really 'DO' things" - I bet there's a lot of engineers who would argue against that, in fact... I bet most of them think they do everything. 

in the software dev field you need to not only know how to do your job... but know how to do the job you are developing for.  for example... if say, you were servicing the print/mail industry... you gotta know an awful lot about print and mail, postal reg, etc.  have to learn about inserters and how they interface.  "gross".

i think the higher you go the more peoples jobs you have to understand how to do... seems a long way from doing nothing but "ok"!

13 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

Oh, the word "engineer" seems to be used differently in dif countries. But you got the idea

 

 

i dunno, there's a lot of dif types of engineers... software, chemical, civil, electrical, mechanical.. train engineers, domestic engineers (my personal favorite engineers).

3 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

Hmmm... Being a full time builder might be nice as long as you don't have to make the ends meet. Guitar builders who actually make a living on it are as real as Santa Claus, Batman or a clever engineer.

well I'd agree except the clever engineer part... all of them seem pretty clever to me!!  This weekend even met some train engineers... seems like quite the life unless you have to live it.

for me - just wanna "do what I want and I wanna get paid" (tom waitts).

1 minute ago, Bizman62 said:

By that logic they used to sell OEM versions of Windows to anyone who could assemble a pc. The OEM price was a quarter of the Retail version, then again rumour says that the big manufacturers paid less than a quarter of the OEM price. So although selling OEM versions to anyone wasn't exactly according to the agreement, Microsoft didn't really care as their main income was from mass licenses.

big dif between "didn't care" and "wasn't profitable for them".  microsoft is absolutely notorious for going after people for licensing.  tis why we spent some 30g to get legit server os and mssql licensing for our servers.  not saying they'd bother... but if you get in their sites you will rue the day!  

anywho... I'm pretty sure we'd all love to be full time builders... I would anyway.  just all the things that go along with that that I have no interest in - i.e. building multiple copies of the sm thing, having to consider profit margins instead of just building from the heart.  all of that's for the birds.  

25 minutes ago, ScottR said:

I'll say!

Wow.

That pretty much covers it.....

SR

thank you sir - always a kind word and never lost on me.  say... isn't it about time for another build from you??? hmmmm? 

2 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

Looks like you're going to become a guitar manufacturer!

well aren't we all?  i mean, if you mfg a guitar you are a guitar mfg right?  

ok, so finally making progress again... whew... 

not sure I mentioned it here... but my cnc controller started acting a fool.  z axis was randomly dropping down or up.  ended up burning some stuff and that was a little scary.  I have a fire extinguisher right next to the cnc so not too worried but never something you want to see.  inlay bit dropped down so deap it was beyond cutter length.  fun times. 

so at that point I figured I could spend a month trouble shooting it... but thought it might be time to just upgrade.  Ended up buying a gecko g540 and ess from "Automation Technologies".  Shout out to those guys cause the customized it to run my vfd from the controller and we had some ups and downs but they were extremely helpful... can't recommend them enough.  

upgraded my steppers to 372oz, upgraded my spindle to 2.2Kw.  now my machine runs amazing.  responds to more than one direction at a time while jogging... will always jog whether in jog mode or not, rapids are scary fast, super happy.

so about two weeks ago had it all working, did some test jobs... went thru the tuning routines with mach3... and resumed work.  

here's some shots of the back of the neck - axis profile. 

very non-intrusive vallute...

matching overlay for the headstock presented some interesting problems for bending (do not get water on a bookmatch join!)o

turquoise surrounded by brass for inlays... looking pretty solid if I do say so...

fretboard is a compound radius from 9.5" to 16".  fret slots need some manual finishing as I cut this w my old controller and it would not effectively hold the radius.  I'm going to try again with the new machine asap.

don't know how well it comes across... but fretboard is bookmatched with sm wood as the headstock... that's right BOOKMATCHED fretboard gonna look pretty smart against matching bookmatched top.  one big bookmatch festival!

here you can see the bookmatch pretty good but hard to capture on account of how white this wood is...

and ran the first 'test' body today.  ran for 4hrs as this is all a finish/rough 3d pass.  not sure how well it comes across... but this thinline cavity is arc'd just like the top will be arc'd on top of it.

you can see looking at the orig hight of material at the edges... we've got about 7/8" of drop off from center.  it's a double compound curve... at center was 10" and it transistions to 16" (at back) and then 7" transistions to 14" at front.  

where are my manors... also shout out to mikro who is always guiding me regarding cnc stuff and was very helpful in my decision making process when I was considering what controller to buy - can't thank you enough!

53 minutes ago, Drak said:

Thanks Mike. That piece of spalt was one of the most dodgiest pieces of spalt I ever worked.

Softer and more rotten than Balsa wood it was, with a few harder portions here and there mixed into it to further confuse the issue.

You can see the imperfections around the curves if you look close.

It was literally crumbling and falling apart as I tried to even and smooth out the edges, even with loads of CA glue to bolster it.

At some point I had to stop chasing it and just say 'good enough, it'll do'.

Doug.

so she fought you hard then... all the more satisfying I bet!!