My binding swelled up!!

[erikbojerik]

OK...I used the StewMac ivroid binding in a 7-layer format, using 2 strips of white-black (0.040") and one strip of white-black-thick white (0.090"), all 1/4" high. I cut my binding channel to a uniform 0.180" deep by 0.250" high, measuring everything with a digital caliper and using files and sanding sticks etc to get it as perfect as I could.

After bending the strips to shape in very hot water (and after drying them off), I glued in the binding with the StewMac cement, which I'd heard can swell the binding, but was supposed to shrink back within a week or two. It did glue in a bit thicker than the depth of the channel, but after a month it never did shrink to be flush with the edge of the body. You can see it a bit in the pic, the binding overhangs the body edge by about 0.010" to 0.015" or so, too thick to scrape down and still look nice (the top scraped down fine, it was very close to flush).

What can I do to prevent this next time? Was I too heavy on the cement? Did the hot water mess me up? Should I use a different adhesive?

[gpcustomguitars]

Hi!

I don't have any expirience with the StewMac cement, but for the ABS plastic they make it of, great glue is plain acetone. I use a small brush, brush both the wood and the binding, press it in and tape with masking tape. Acetone evaporates really quick, so you can remove the tape 1-2 hours later. For tight spots (ie top of the LP cutaway) I use a few drops of CA, and when binding a fretboard also.

Also, you can source ABS strips from the cabinet shops that do custom cutting and binding of the MDF. I got 7m (14 strips) for 3$. You just need to scrape the one side clean of the factory adhesive. They are ~2mm thick, and 18, 36, etc wide. I got some really nice cream colored ones.

Hope this helps!

BR

Goran

[erikbojerik]

Thanks Goran. Does the acetone alone do a good job of keeping the binding fixed to the wood?

On the fretboards, what kind of CA do you use? The runny stuff, or the gel?

[johnsilver]

I just finished binding a LP style body with a 7 layer ivoroid/black and a 5 layer on the back. I used the Stewmac celluloid nitrate binding and their binding glue. Sounds like same stuff you used. I used acetone to laminate the narrow 0.040 strips together, three for the top and two for the back. My final piece was a plain ivoroid strip for both top and back. After laminating, I pre-shaped the binding by taping it to the body using a little heat (from a hair dryer) to help it conform to the bends. After it sat for a few days, I removed all the tape, then I glued the binding on the body by gluing the laminated strips to the body and the final ivoroid strip to the laminated strips. So I only had two glue areas to build up and add any thickness. The acetone adds no thickness when laminating. I had cut the top binding channel fairly close, and it turned out a little thick as you experienced, but not so much that some work with a scraper couldn't fix. Based on that, I cut the back channel a little deeper and it came out almost flush. I used my own bits, but I notice that Stewmac sells binding cutting bits that they advertise as being a little oversize to account for the glue, etc. Hope this is clear. Here is a pic of the top.

[erikbojerik]

Thanks John for the detailed description. The only thing I did differently was to use the cement for laminating the thin strips instead of the acetone. From our combined experiences it looks like the cement does add some to the thickness.

Did the hair dryer work OK for the tip of the horn as well?

3 strips (6 layers) is a lot, I would be worried that the outside layers would have to stretch too much and might crack around sharp bends. That's why, in my case, I didn't pre-laminate, I just glued down one layer at a time. I probably should have laminated with acetone.

Thanks again!

[gpcustomguitars]

Yes, acetone gives you a good bond, I just touch up with CA at tight spots as needed.

For the fretboards, I go with CA cause I don't know what effect would sweat etc have in the long run, and the moisture actually helps CA to harden, so... Also, fretboard parts are straight, so I don't need to glue my fingers to the guitar... I use runny stuff.

I'll have some pics of my current LP later today, only one cream layer there, tho...

BR

Goran

[johnsilver]

The hair dryer worked great overall but especially well around the horn. Despite the fact that I preformed the binding, when I was gluing there wasn't a perfect fit around the horn. The hair dryer softened the binding in only a few seconds sufficient to press it back to a really good fit.

I know what you mean about "stretching" the outside layer around a bend. There was definite tension there. Again, the heat was great as it helped soften the binding just enough to fit to shape. You have to be careful with the heat as it only takes a few seconds and celluloid nitrate binding is flammable.

What are you going to do on your guitar? By applying some heat to the binding you may be able to remove it and try again. Good luck.

[erikbojerik]

What are you going to do on your guitar? By applying some heat to the binding you may be able to remove it and try again.

I thought about it, but just decided to leave it. It is a travel guitar, so I imagine it will get a little beat up over the years anyway (you can see the scars from a failed tuners-on-the-body experiment). That's why I picked this one for my first binding job. I will leave it as a reminder for the next bound body (which will be a mandolin...which will be preparation for an archtop).

Thanks very much for the replies!

[gpcustomguitars]

Hi,

Here's a pic of my progress so far. I did the fretboard with CA, everything else is plain acetone. Didn't scrape the body yet...

BR,

Goran

[johnsilver]

Goran, very clean work on the body binding especially the cutaway. I see you decided to use a wider binding to handle the cutaway shape. Looks very nice. Did you cut the rest of the binding down to size first?

I used binding of a constant thickness (didn't know there was an alternative) so the cutaway was a challenge. Nervewracking is a better word. Came out ok. I haven't bound the fretboard yet.

[erikbojerik]

Those are both real nice binding jobs, thanks for the pics! I'm sold on the acetone and hair dryer.

[Brian]

Those look sweet

[gpcustomguitars]

Thanks!

Yes, the height was the same all the way (check my pics by clicking on my signature No2), and then I cut down most of it by hand using a chisel, and then scrape the rest with replacement exacto blades. I did it that way in the cutaway area because I like it better than showing some maple under the binding. The channel in that area is cut from the top and going down gradually (I use Stew Mac bits with bearings). Otherwise, it's a classic Paul, long tennon etc, thanks to great templates of Mr. Catto!

Yours looks great, nice clean job, how thick is the maple? Any photos of the whole thing?

BR,

Goran

PS will try the hairdryer next time!

[Setch]

Both very clean work - I'm particularly impressed by John's cutaway binding, my first job on the blue DC in my avatar was nowhere near that neat, and that was single ply, not 7 ply! I've used up all my tall binding now, so next guitar will be back to bending the compound curve in the cutaway, not looking forwards to it - still at least it isn't that Godawfull Stew Mac ABS cream any more... We hates it we does!

[johnsilver]

Thanks guys. This was my second binding job, the first being a single ply on a tele. I'm making all kinds of mistakes on this guitar but nothing fatal so far. For example, I carved the top before cutting the binding channel (and before I saw Setch's great tutorial), so I had to use one of those mini binding cutters attached to my Dremel. Pretty exciting.

Goran, the maple is 5/8" thick. I found a piece of curly maple at my local hardwood supplier and had them resaw it and that was the max thickness they could get. I had some left over so I decided to put some on the back like a LP Supreme. Another mistake in planning - the maple on the back was thicker than the binding so I have maple showing on the side as you can see in the pic. Oh well. I put a 5 ply binding on the back.

Any thoughts on finishing the sides given that the maple is showing. I was thinking I would dye the sides a medium brown and then maybe spray a toner tinted with the same brown. Thoughts?

[gpcustomguitars]

It's visible on older Gibsons, that's why I went with straight binding. Finishing is not my strong side, so... I assume that even finished really good it would still show at some point during the natural fading process... It looks really nice, tho, so don't worry too much over that.

One more pic, the headstock binding:

Headstock veneer is a piece of maple from the same stock as the top, dyed black, but i scraped some of the color off with the binding, will have to redo after doing the inlays. I CA'd the binding here, because of the tighter bends on the crown - acetone would still need some time to set, and CA let me do the whole job in 15-20 mins, scraping included. If you wet the wood slightly, it sets even faster.

BR,

Goran