How much glue for veneer top?

[kyot56]

Hey all-

I did a search and didn't find an answer to my question so hopefully someone can help me out here.

I am adding a quilted maple veneer to my guitar. I just added it to the headstock and ran into an issue: it seems the glue absorbed through the veneer so when I went to stain it (anniline dye) there are places where the stain did not take. (Glad I did the headstock first )

Anyway, my question is has anyone experienced this and know what to do to prevent it on the body itself? Did I use too much glue? Could I possibly have over-clamped? On the headstock I used Titebond II since there was a plastic piece covering the entire headstock (Carvin neck). I plan on using Titebond Liquid Hide Glue on the body. (Not sure if the Hide Glue will take stain if it happens on the body since it is an organic substance.)

I put the glue on the headstock using a small notched trowel-type thing, put the veneer on, laid a piece of wax paper then clamped a slightly over-sized piece of plywood on it...probably used 6 clamps for about 2 hours.

Thanks for any advice here.

[bigdguitars]

Yes this is a royal pain in the arse. Use as little glue as possible. just make sure you have enough glue to cover over all of it, but thin enough. How thin?

Very very thin. No glue drips. spread out the glue with a butter knife.

As little glue to cover the whole area, easiest answer.

[Dugz Ink]

Not sure if the Hide Glue will take stain if it happens on the body since it is an organic substance.

Things will not soak into glue... that's the whole problem. It fills the wood grain, and then nothing will soak into it... not dye, stain, nor finish. However, Titebond is water soluble, so you might be able to remove the offending veneer with a steam iron... with the emphisis on the steam, not the iron.

As Big D said, use as little glue as possible. A thin (but complete) coat will do the job.

As for clamping, you need even pressure, not heavy pressure. For instance, a 10 pound sandbag (placed level to the ground) will actually work better than several clamps that generate a total of 20 pounds of force, because the pressure is evenly distributed and it can conform to the shape of the wood.

If the plywood that you mentioned is thick enough, then you shouldn't have tight spots here and there; you might simply have one side tighter than the other. It really is next to impossible to set 2 clamps to the exact same tightness. Increase the number of clamps, and you increase the likelyhood that one is tighter than the rest.

D~s

[kyot56]

Wow! Thanks for the quick responses. Removing the veneer from the headstock shouldn't be too much of a pain so I'll just call do-over on that. In reading some of the tutorials, etc, it looks like I will be doing lots of practice runs before I get to the real thing. I guess it'll give me time to practice on the dyeing technique too, eh?

Muchas gracias again for the feedback.

[joej]

Isn't someone going to jump in about using Titebond II and Titebond Liquid Hide Glue?

I'll jump in -- correct me if I'm wrong:

I've heard NO on these 2 glues for millions of times (literally) over the years. So much so that I've only used Titebond original and real hide glue. Therefore, I cannot comment on personal experience as to WHY NOT.

The standard answers to WHY NOT are:

- Titebond II is for external and/or does not every dry sufficiently/completely (i.e., always stays *slightly* plastic --- not good for instrument work

- Titebond Liquid Hide glue has so many additives to keep shelf life, etc that it is a very bad form of hide glue for instruments

The answers don't sound like "purists" answers, but always seem to come from real experience and explanation -- so I listen.

-- joe

[Setch]

What he said!

Steer clear of Titebond II or Titebond liquid hide. With a thin veneer you are likely to get bleeding problems with almost anyglue, so you may be best advised to colour with tinted clear not stain.

I'd suggest you wait for Drak to weigh in on this one - he's probably the most experienced user when it comes to veneering and colouring...

[Dugz Ink]

Isn't someone going to jump in about using Titebond II and Titebond Liquid Hide Glue?

I've only used the "Original"... and only after it was recommended to me by members here at PG. (I've used numerous other types of glues and adhesives, so I do have some experience.) I simply didn't realize that the other Titebond products were prone to bleed through veneer.

That information is very helpful.

D~s

[kyot56]

Ah, good info. I was a little suspicious of whether the Titebond Liquid Hide Glue was "as good as" regular hide glue and now it seems not. (I figured I didn't want to use the hide glue on the headstock since I wasn't sure if the plastic base there would have bonded well with the hide glue. I then just grabbed the Titebond II that I had around )

So it seems regular Titebond may work though? I'll just hang out a bit to see what the consensus is here.

Again, thanks for any and all comments and suggestions. (BTW, I've looked at some of the work here and I have to say I think I found the right place for getting great advice!!!)

[Drak]

Hey all-

I did a search and didn't find an answer to my question so hopefully someone can help me out here.

I am adding a quilted maple veneer to my guitar. I just added it to the headstock and ran into an issue: it seems the glue absorbed through the veneer so when I went to stain it (anniline dye) there are places where the stain did not take. (Glad I did the headstock first )

Anyway, my question is has anyone experienced this and know what to do to prevent it on the body itself?

__________

Yeah, it's actually pretty common. I would say it happens more often than not.

You didn't actually do anything 'wrong', you just have to know how to wrangle with veneers, which comes with trying it over and over again, hopefully on scrap first

__________

Did I use too much glue?

__________

Man, figuring out the proper amount of glue to use for veneering is one of the BIG 'Aha' moments in veneering. Too much, it's splooging out everywhere, making a huge freaking mess. Too little, you'll have adhesion problems and little pop-up 'blisters' of veneer that will have to be re-pressed down (God I hate those little bastards)

I use regular Original Titebond glue, and if it is applied to the back of your veneer (regular glue habits say to glue both sides) will start to curl that muthu up instantly and totally throw you hard if you're not ready for that to happen. You will freak.

So...

1) Once you learn the 'right' amount (not Sahara Desert dry, not Atlantic Ocean wet), I will apply that only to the guitar body with either a cheap paintbrush or a plastic spatula, which removes one hurdle, the hurdle of fighting the madly curling veneer while you're trying to get your glue thang on and getting clamps ready and all that. The last thing you need is the veneer sheets curling in on themselves when they've just been glued, the glue will get all over the tops, basically you'll be one pretty pissed off hombre if you weren't expecting this to happen.

OK, what does this buy you? Well, when you get 'just' the right amount of glue, and 'just' on the body, you will get a good adhesion, no pop-up blisters, and minimal glue bleed-thru to the top, although you still might get some, it will be as minimal as possible, and shouldn't be much of a problem.

__________

Could I possibly have over-clamped?

__________

Nope. I crank the living piss out of my clamps when veneering. No such thing as too much pressure is my belief. I like 'em flat as a freakin' pancake when dry.

__________

On the headstock I used Titebond II since there was a plastic piece covering the entire headstock (Carvin neck). I plan on using Titebond Liquid Hide Glue on the body. (Not sure if the Hide Glue will take stain if it happens on the body since it is an organic substance.)

__________

Well, you're call. I only use Original Titebond, but my way is in no way the only way there is.

I know Brian does his veneering very differently than I do mine, and I think he has a tutorial in the front section, so you could check both out.

__________

I put the glue on the headstock using a small notched trowel-type thing, put the veneer on, laid a piece of wax paper then clamped a slightly over-sized piece of plywood on it...probably used 6 clamps for about 2 hours.

__________

DUDE!!! YOU just WON a FREE trip to LAS VEGAS! DING DING DING!!!!!

I ALWAYS use wax paper, it's GREAT!

__________

A few side notes:

1) Please find some veneer tape and tape your booked halves together with the proper veneer tape.

Yes, you don't HAVE to, but I really really recommend using it.

...And it goes on TOP . Veneer tape is very cool, very cheap, and it works great. I mean, why do you think they made it?

You might have to ask around for some, someone should give you some for almost free.

I know Brian does this part completely different than I do, so choose yer poisen!

My way:

When gluing up the body using regular guitar building clamps, it is IMPERATIVE that you use a HARDWOOD top, plywood WILL NOT CUT IT. Even thick plywood won't cut it. Cheap hardwood? Maple is great. Love Maple backer boards for veneering, that stuff will not give or budge one bit. 1/2" is THE BOSS.

And make it the exact shape of your body with 1/4 or so overhang all around. If you want to glue some pieces together to get this, go ahead if you have some hardwood scraps lying about.

Why is this so important? Because I HATE veneer job mistakes.

What are veneer job mistakes?

Excessive glue that collects under the veneer that doesn't get pressed out by the hardwood backer and clamps. This will appear as soft blobby bubbles, because under that bubble is a puddle of glue.

Veneer that has 'lift' spots, or 'blisters' where you didn't get good adhesion.

You see, a good hardwood backer board evens out the pressure from the clamps across the entire top, and you will get a FANTASTIC veneer job with no veneer mistakes.

Plywood does not have this ability, it does not even out the pressure from the clamps evenly across the top, and some parts will get clamped hard (the spots directly under your clamps) and some parts will NOT get the same amount of pressure, and these areas are where the glue will migrate to, and you will get the blobby bubbles with glue trapped under them.

Ask away if you have any other questions.

Oh, one other thing I do is to lightly tack the wax paper to the hardwood backer board, because when it all goes down, you've got a lot of things on your plate going on all at once, so you minimize the amount of things you have to do beforehand as much as possible. Tacking the wax paper to the backer board removes one extra step, making sure the wax paper goes where you want it to go and it's not sliding all over the place and getting in your way when you're trying to center your veneer onto the top, because that is priority ONE, centering that veneer before the clamps get tightened up, and you don't want anything interfering with that, that is where you're concentration -needs- to be, not worrying about the damned wax paper sliding all over the place. That is frustration city.

I also make light marks on the sides of my body at the center of the end of the neck pocket and the center of the rear of the body to give me guideposts to help me get the veneer nicely centered just before clampdown.

Watch when you're starting to clamp that the veneer doesn't start sliding on you, this is where you really need to be concentrating, this is the crux of the biscuit right here, and you don't want to get freaked out or distracted by anything else at this moment, this is where the proper amount of glue comes in too. If you use too much glue, the veneer will start sliding around like a damned sailboat on the water. I try to have two clamps ready, one centered at the bottom of the body, and one centered at the neck area. Once these two clamps are cranked down sufficiently and your veneer is still centered, you are homeward bound for glory!

__________

Thanks for any advice here.

[Dugz Ink]

Some very good points in there, but I feel compelled to add a few notes. I'm not saying that Drak is wrong... he is clearly very experienced and has some good advice... but we have two different ways of looking at a few things. I thought I would share those differences, to provide a second opinion to the thread.

I crank the living piss out of my clamps when veneering.

If you use your clamps like that, then it stands to reason that "plywood won't cut it." Plywood is not designed for that type of force, so it will crush, buckle, and create tight spots. If a person's fear of ripples leads then to apply 200ft/lbs of torque to each clamp, then they will need something far more stable... hardwood, cast iron, concrete...

Excessive glue that collects under the veneer that doesn't get pressed out by the hardwood backer and clamps.

I've always laid down one edge of the veneer first, then used a roller (not clamp pressure) to work out all of the air-pockets and glue-puddles... especially on a piece that's more then a few inches wide. When I do this right (with the right amount of light glue) heavy clamping pressure does not seem to be necessary.

But that's just my opinion and experience.

D~s

[bigdguitars]

clamping the living piss out things is not always a good idea. If you use the wrong clamps you could leave dents.

always use boards to even the pressure out.

Also if you are using the jorgenson I-beam clamps if you tighten too much you will squeeze the glue from the joints. Those clamps pump out 7000 pounds of clamping force.

[Drak]

Dugz, that's cool.

I restore old amplifiers also, and I use the roller method when applying new tolex, exactly the way you described, and I've done a lot of that, so I understand exactly what you're saying, and I've always said there's many many roads that will all lead to the same destination.

If you have a different road, that's great, as long as your road makes it to the final destination successfully, that's all that really matters.

My exception to that would be that the glue I use for tolex is -extremely- tacky and is designed -specifically- to be applied like that, with a roller, rolling out the air pockets.

Titebond is completely different. I would say that I think Titebond isn't really designed to be used as you use it, it -does- certainly tack up after awhile, but I believe it leaves an inexperienced veneerer open to some possibly disasterous results. And we are trying to get a newb to a successful veneer job. That's what this is -all- about.

I understand you have made it work for you, and that's great, I do the same thing with other operations I do since I don't have any floorstanding machinery, I make up ways to 'fake it' that work just as successfully, so you're crafty and innovative, and that's cool. But you're also probably experienced at it too by now.

I would guess that to get the roller thang down, a newb would have to make a few attempts to get the hang of it (I could be completely wrong I admit, just playing devils advocate) and my guess would be that there are more things that could go wrong with that method than my method.

Again, I am just guessing, but I've used rollers a lot too and I know what's involved with them. You let a guy loose with a roller and Titebond and some veneer, I can see several things going haywire/ballistic that would lead to a failed job (for a newb)

So, you're method is cool, but I think you should type out the instructions to do it -in great detail-, -step by step-, and -include the pitfalls to watch out for-, ...if you're going to throw it out there for a newb to try, because I see a lot of missing information if you're trying to put that method forth as viable.

I went to great lengths to include the things to be on the lookout for, because I am trying to explain to a newb how to do a -completely successful- veneer job right out the gate. That's the whole reason we're here discussing it.

I've done veneering LOTS of different ways. I have just found that the way I described in detail is by FAR and AWAY the most repeatable, successful method I've found out of everything I've tried. I'm glad that your way works great too, I prefer not to do the roller thing with veneers, but then, I prefer not to sandbag it either, so different strokes for different folks is great! They all lead to well done veneer jobs.

Derek:

clamping the living piss out things is not always a good idea. If you use the wrong clamps you could leave dents.

_______________

Not always, but it works PERFECTLY in this application, and this application is what we're discussing.

________________

always use boards to even the pressure out.

________________

I already said that. In great detail.

________________

Also if you are using the jorgenson I-beam clamps if you tighten too much you will squeeze the glue from the joints. Those clamps pump out 7000 pounds of clamping force.

Derek, your post makes no sense to me. If you're implying that you'll have a veneer substrate lacking in glue from excessive pressure, you're wrong, at least if you do it the way I detailed.

Use a little common sense too. No one here recommended using 7000 lbs of torque.

Even when I piss I cannot meet 7000 psi out the nozzle.

Keep it in the ballpark dude.

[Dugz Ink]

So, you're method is cool, but I think you should type out the instructions to do it -in great detail-, -step by step-, and -include the pitfalls to watch out for-, ...if you're going to throw it out there for a newb to try, because I see a lot of missing information if you're trying to put that method forth as viable.

Point well taken. And I appreciate you taking my comments so well. It's good to see that two people can list two opposing techniques without it turning into a flame-war.

DUGz WAY

I start with the usual surface prep, and (as Drak also pointed out) prepping all the equipment. You do NOT want to find yourself in a position where you have to walk across the shop to get something while your veneer curls up.

Also, anything that needs to be done to the veneer should already be done. I don't trim my veneer very much before putting it down. If it's a round table top, I might cut a little off of each corner of the veneer, but not much. However, I would repeat Drak's point about marking the veneer with a pencil; it can be helpful in cases where alignment is important.

I put the base piece of the project on my Workmate, which will hold it level and secure. Then I put on a light coat of glue and spread it out with a telfon spatula... which I bought for $5. Trust me - this is a GREAT spreading tool, and it's easy to clean even when I've been spreading epoxy.

With that done, I go in the kitchen, wash my hands, make a cup of instant coffee, and smoke a cigarette. Yes, that IS an important part of my process. That is just about the right amount of time; the glue is getting stickier and thicker, without drying up. This will help me to keep the veneer from curling.

I double check to make sure that I have my tools at the ready, then I pick up the veneer and the roller. I place the veneer on the nearest edge of the project, and start rolling... pushing AWAY from me... forward, to the left, to the right, forward again, and so on. The real trick is doing it slow enough to get any air-bubbles or glue-puddles out, while doing it fast enough to get it secured before it curls. If it's a large piece, I will use my spring clamps to hold what I've rolled, to keep the veneer from peeling up.

THIS IS WHERE I USE ONE OF TWO TECHNIQUES, DEPENDING ON THE PROJECT.

TECHNIQUE 1: ENTER THE SANDMAN

When the veneer is completely rolled and secure, I pull out the sand bags and lay them on the project. I like sand bags because they never pinch or mar the wood. Also, it's easy to make a slight mistake while sanding and end up with an edge that tapers down a little; using a flat board might not hold the veneer tight against that taper, but a sand bag usually will.

The only thing to watch is that you don't toss on a sand bag and send the veneer sliding sideways. Again, letting the glue "tack up" before you put on the veneer will help. But adding sand bags to both sides of the project (after the main sand bags are on top) will keep everything from shifting.

NOTE 1: If you did a bad job or rolling out the veneer, the weight of the sand bags will not "iron out" your project. Roll it tight, or don't use sand bags.

NOTE 2: If you are working on a project that is not easily clamped (like putting veneer on an odd shaped piece of furniture) this is the best way to do it.

TECHNIQUE 2: PUT THE SCREWS TO IT

When the humidity is up around 80-90%, the veneer will want to curl even before the glue hits it. If the veneer is liable to misbehave, I pull out my Jorgensen "toolmaker" (or "double screw") clamps. They have fairly long jaws, and can be adjusted for anything from +15º to -15º clamping angles.

I put a piece of wax-paper covered plywood donw on the veneer, add some spring clamps (to hold it steady) then I start adding the toolmaker clamps... adjusting each one very carefully to ensure that I have constant pressure all the way down the jaws, not just at the front or the back of the clamp.

NOTE 1: This is a much longer process, and the clamps were expensive. However, It will ensure that the veneer does not move... even if an earthquake hits. Tornado? Maybe.

With either technique, I remove everything after a few hours, to allow the wood to breathe and dry. After 24 hours, I cut and sand the edge of the veneer to match the project.

D~s

[Drak]

Very Cool, thanks -very much- for the instructions Dugz.

Maybe I'll give your way a whirl one day, since I got the J-Roller already (and know how to use that baby!) I'm always up for something new, a new trick to add to the bag.

One question...using a roller, the first 'disaster' thought I had was if you're using veneer with ANY holes or cracks in it, the glue would splooge up onto the top (which isn't so terrible on the face of it) ...but then the roller will pick up the glue blob as you're rolling things down and start spreading little glue spots all over the top. THAT could be disaster city.

That was one of my 'possible disaster' scenarios. Ever had that happen to you?

I (if it's OK wid ya) would recommend going over the veneer first, and if any cracks in the veneer are present, or any holes, tape them up first, even if you have to use masking tape, just so you don't get any bleed-thru.

Thanks for posting your instructions, maybe we can make a veneer tutorial out of this to add to Brians already existing tut...

I could add in the iron-on method too...

Oh, PS, do you use veneer tape to get your booked halves together? I'm a big fan of veneer tape. It's soooo cheap and easy to use and sand off and does a great job so there's no visible seam down the middle of any joined veneer pieces. I always believe in joining any pieces together before gluing the whole thing down.

[Dugz Ink]

the first 'disaster' thought I had was if you're using veneer with ANY holes or cracks in it, the glue would splooge up onto the top (which isn't so terrible on the face of it) ...but then the roller will pick up the glue blob as you're rolling things down and start spreading little glue spots all over the top.

That has never happened to me (knock on wood) but, YES, that would be a mess!

A very good point! Touché!

do you use veneer tape to get your booked halves together?

I have a 50' roll hanging over my bench... the pre-glued hot-melt stuff. I am NOT impressed by it's long-term durability. I am seriously thinking about chucking it and buying a couple rolls (various woods) of the non-glued banding. It's great for edge strips, accents, repairing small damage, making shims...

D~s

[bigdguitars]

Drak,

come on now.

What is common sense to us is not common sense to all...

just image some newb, clamping the $#!t out of something then having a dent and ruining a project.

just trying to make sense for some...

[Drak]

Sorry Derek, but maybe on another thread, in another time, your post would have made sense, but it had little bearing on these issues.

I will say it again, that as long as you are using a good hardwood backer glueboard, as I recommended, you can clamp the living crap out of your clamps with nothing but great, dead-man flat veneer results to show for it.

[tirapop]

Several years back, Fine Woodworking had a cool, cheap little trick for veneering. It was right after they'd done an article of vacuum bag veneering... which works great but has a big cash outlay up front. The trick was to apply glue to both the substrate and the veneer and allow it to dry, then use a steam iron to bond them together. IIRC, they used yellow glue (titebond) applied with a roller. For the veneer, they misted the unglued side with water, to keep it from curling from the moisture in the glue. It appeared to work pretty well. They had to play with the iron settings to keep it from scorching the veneer, but, hot enough to melt the dried glue.

[Drak]

Yup, been there, done that, lots of times, as my reference to 'iron on' inferred.

It works, but wasn't the best method I've tried.

I believe the article was by Frank Pallermo, a massively talented veneer guy, and former owner of Pelican Veneer.

I could go into that methodology at length, including most all the landmines you would encounter, but we'll keep that one under our hat for the time being, lots of instructions with that way, and as I said earlier, if your going to present a methodology, you had better be able to present it step by step, and include the landmines waiting for the newbs, so they at least have a shot at it.

AFAIC, iron-on just isn't the best way as far as guitars are concerned.

Cool stuff tho...had fun with it.

[Phil Mailloux]

Absolutely Great tips Drak and Dugz!!!

This thread is definitely going in my Word files collection on my PC

Dugz

I put the base piece of the project on my Workmate, which will hold it level and secure. Then I put on a light coat of glue and spread it out with a telfon spatula... which I bought for $5. Trust me - this is a GREAT spreading tool, and it's easy to clean even when I've been spreading epoxy.

With that done, I go in the kitchen, wash my hands, make a cup of instant coffee, and smoke a cigarette. Yes, that IS an important part of my process. That is just about the right amount of time; the glue is getting stickier and thicker, without drying up. This will help me to keep the veneer from curling.

Are you using titebond for this? From what I understand you let the glue dry about 15 minutes, right?

My only experience with titebond was gluing my fingerboard and the glue was drying up faster than I could say the word "glue". By the time I had finished spreading the glue on the neck it had already started getting dry spots.

Is this how your glue should be before you apply the veneer?

[terrax]

could try sealing it (back of the veneer) with a sanding sealer, then glue it up, i dont think it would go through then.

dave

[Dugz Ink]

Are you using titebond for this? From what I understand you let the glue dry about 15 minutes, right?

It only takes me 5-7 minutes to make coffee and smoke a cigarette.

Also, different glues in different conditions have different drying times.

The old term "tack up" is the best reference; the glue should still be tacky, not dry.

D~s

[kyot56]

Well guys, I think I got it . I have successfully re-done the headstock with the right amount of glue and thanks to Draks "PRS staining" tutorial have a pretty decent stain on it as well. Ready to take on the body this weekend. Thanks

once again for all the advice here.

[Drak]

I've never owned a PRS.