rick_here Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 (edited) Please forgive me if I've missed any Tutorials or pertinent earlier threads (I'm a Newbie here). Also, I'm gonna be asking some some stuff and giving some of my opinions (at the same time) which I hope won't be too detailed or confusing. My only experience with finishing a guitar came with a Carvin Bolt-On, Strat-Type Kit which I "made" about 4 years ago. I made some mistakes in the finshing then, lessons-learned, and am about to do another "build." Here's what I have. A Tele-Copy Body (from Musikraft). It's a "Broadcaster" (1 & a half inches thick) and might be Hard (Northern) Ash; Musikraft didn't specify if it was Swamp (soft) or Northern (hard). It weighs 4.8 pounds and is "lighter" in color with no "reddish-ness" which is why I'm guessing it may be Northern. So. Here's what I've decided. I want to tint the body some shade of a Lighter-Gray (with no sunbursting). I also want to use a black tint/stain to bring out the grain. I'm planning to final-coat it with Minwax Wipe-On Polyurethane (based on certain opinions of others/ my tentative conclusion). I've considered Automotive Clear-Coat as well (prolly Dupli-Color, from all I've been hearing, should I go that route?). One advantage of the Minwax Wipe-On is that I'm gonna have to finish this inside (in my bathroom, to be honest about it)! Questions: 1) What kind of prepping (the wood) should I do? Sand to what? sand-paper type/number? Should I use any kind of wood conditioner? 2) As to Staining; I want to do the black first (to highlite the grain), sand that down and then do the Gray-Staining. Right? 3) Filling The Grain; my current plan is to use the Wipe-On-Poly to achieve this..."as many coats as it takes" (the more the merrier, I'm figuring).... 4) Or, should I use a "black gel" Grain Filler (before the Gray-Staining)? ...somewhat perplexed.... So what do y'all think? Did I miss anything "critical?" (Thanx In Advance) rick ><> Edited October 16, 2004 by rick_here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren wilson Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 I am by no means an expert, but i would probably stain it first, then use a black grain filler, then clear. Just make sure that the clearcoat, the filler and the stain are all compatible... you wouldn't want to be wiping off your stain and filler as you wipe on your poly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_here Posted October 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 (edited) darren wilson- I am by no means an expert.... One of several reasons I joined Project Guitar.... Nice to meet you, btw. i would probably stain it first, then use a black grain filler, then clear. Just make sure that the clearcoat, the filler and the stain are all compatible... you wouldn't want to be wiping off your stain and filler as you wipe on your poly. Getting the Steps In Order (1, 2, then 3) is a lot of what I'm asking about. And Everything I'll be using will be oil-based (convering "compatibility"). Grain Fillers, I must admit, are a bit confusing for me (as I've never used em). If I'm not mistaken, Grain Fillers that are specially-designed for guitars come in a "gel" or otherwise, "specific" form to do that function. Right? Are they made to not-absorb into the finer/smaller grain? They go-on and you wipe em off with that "squeegee" looking tool (which you can buy, but I'll invent one using a similar concept)....perhaps a now-defunct Credit-Card, though they are doable for custom-made-picks, LoL! If I'm following you then, I should: (1) Stain the Body (with my chosen Gray-Shade). (2) Fill the grain with a "Black-Tinted" Grain Filler, especially made for guitars. (3) The rest is all sanding/ coats/ final-coat/ polish. To be honest about it, I really can't afford buying stuff from StewMac (or whoever) if I can get the same thing at a hardware store. If I'm not mistaken, Minwax has a Gel-Type Stain available in black. If this would work, I'd prefer to do it that way. In a nutshell, "Grain Fillers For Guitar" is where I'm (still) perplexed. I'd rather not have to buy a pint from StewMac (for 16 bucks) if I'm not gonna use more than a few ounces of it, tops. If there aren't any shortcuts, no problem. Would diluting have anything to do with this? This as a kind of side-(sub)-topic. I'm considering how staining/filling the Body-Sides might go....(How to prevent over-darkness). Thanx a lot! Edited October 16, 2004 by rick_here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 What I'd do (but this is just me) is get a bottle of black dye(Solar Lux Black is what Drak, an experienced member uses), and mix that dye with either epoxy or CA glue (superglue, etc.)-- I'm pretty sure they're compatible-- for black grainfiller. Fill the grain with that, and then sand down to level. Then, either dye the wood grey with the diluted black (maybe bleach first?), or mix a wee bit of black into your clear coats (again, check for compatibility) to tind the clear itself towards grey. Wait for confirmation, but I think that's a good way of doing things. You can buy most of your supplies at a hardware store, and all you need to order is a good bottle (or powder) of black dye.\ Keep us updated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 Guitarfrenzy's tutorial on the 50th anniversary Strat has a good section on filling grain in ash with black epoxy, with plenty photos. Ash Strat tut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_here Posted October 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 skibum- Thanx for this "another angle" on things. I'm quasi-newbie (enuf) to have seen some of "Drak's" posts.... OK, Here Goes: I'll use (black) Shoe Dye if I hafta (or Can-A, since I have some). Whichever & whatever works/ does the job....I'll pencil-in each grain with a Laundry Pen if that's what it takes! (I'm joking). But when anyone starts talking about mixing dyes with Super-Glue as a Grain-Filler...(or even with epoxy)...I'm basically "lost." But am still Open to whatever "that" might entail.... How's about regular Ol' Kiwi Shoe Polish? (not entirely kidding-around). Trust me---I'm willing to experiment (with pre-testing) on just about anything. It only has to be: Doable. thanx & be well then, rick ><> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 IIRC, Kiwi is oil-based. Oil doesn't do too well with finishes, generally speaking. Also, you want something harder than that, the idea being that the finish -won't- sink into the grain. Generally speaking, try to stick to tried and true methods. As for mixing black dye in with epoxy or superglue, it's about as simple as it sounds. First, get a bottle of this in black. It can be mixed with lacquer or epoxy. Next, buy your epoxy from a hardware store. Mix it up, and add the black dye to taste. Spread it on like in the strat tutorial. Stewmac also sells black epoxy, but this dye can be used in your finish too. For the finish, mix some of the black into your finish and wipe on/brush on just as you normally would. I have never done this myself, but that's the method I would use. Also, didn't mean to sound condescending regarding Drak's posts. I simply meant to say that he knows what he's doing, as compared to me, so his particular advice on this topic, had you not seen it before, is handy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_here Posted October 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 (edited) erikbojerik- Thanx for that Link! Actually I had seen that like about a day after I signed-up for Project Guitar, had it bookmarked and hadn't paid attention to that it's an Ash Body. (And have since gotten mine).... Btw, I didn't take a look at the Link (again) last nite due to my 56K waiting time. I bookmarked it 3 times this round (so's I won't lose it). Yeah, GuitarFrenzy's pretty awesome alright! I might just do it as Natural (after the black-epoxy-filler). Will wait & see what that looks like. Thanxalot! Edited October 17, 2004 by rick_here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_here Posted October 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 (edited) skibum- Thanx for the StewMac (Color Tone) link. I've been reading their catalog (one I have here at home) and going over the options. Wouldn't this be the same thing? Slow-Setting Epoxy, Black, #5179-B 3 bucks cheaper than the Color Tone. And no need to buy epoxy (locally). I probably won't need any more Epoxy-(type) Grain Filler for some time. Whatta ya think? The shoe polish was meant as "satirical"...but it's a fact that I'll use anything that works! I'm so (*cheap/ *cheap*/ cheap*)!!! I wonder if a Local Epoxy and Artist's Acrylic (black) would do the job? I've seen someone @ PG using Artist's Acrylics for something.... So much info & variables. I'm thinkin #5179-B and lettin it be at that (as I need to get some stuff from StewMac's anyway). be well Edited October 17, 2004 by rick_here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 The color-tone isn't epoxy, it's dye. My suggestion was that you mix the dye in with store-bought epoxy so that you have dye to tint the finish as well. If you're gonna go clear for the finish, by all means get the black epoxy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 i don't think ash is a stain and sand back type of wood,though i may be wrong http://www.rondomusic.net/photos/electric/al2800ashhsb5a.jpg that guitar is ash with i belive just a honey tinted glaze coat,then a burst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 Wait-- who said anything about stain black sand back? The only applications we were discussing were tinting epoxy for grainfilling and tinting clearcoats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 2) As to Staining; I want to do the black first (to highlite the grain), sand that down and then do the Gray-Staining. Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 Sorry, misunderstanding: I took grain to mean the big open grain of the ash, while you took grain to mean figuring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 Ash has such an open grain that it is almost figuring...when you apply the epoxy, you definitely need to sand back (but not too much...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Sand back to level it and get the epoxy off the surface of the wood, yes, just as you would level sand any grain filler or surface coat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_here Posted October 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 (edited) Y'all have been "real good sports" (tolerating me, a newbie at all this stuff)....ty!!! 'Not quite sure how to put this but; I've learned a whole lot more on this thread than you "veterans" probably realize. First, you have the ol' "linguistics" (what words are, what they mean. etc.). Not to get all philosophical about it or anything.... Next, I've found out that the thread's name didn't really reflect what I was thinking at the time---what I "really meant to say," IOW, it would have been better-called: "Ash Body, Gray, with Clear Topcoats" because that's what I had (had) in mind when I posted it. This reminds me of when I bought my 1st computer & got online (just 5 years ago). As most of you (or probably just about everyone) knows; ya gotta "be online" for a while to figure Exactly What all that Internet-Lingo means...especially if yer Self-Taught, as in my case-scenario. You guys are so more advanced than I am that we may continue to have communication mix-ups. But it wouldn't really be anyone's fault, per se. (When in doubt, blame the newbie/ I know!!!).... Ok then. I re-read & viewed GuitarFrenzy's Pictorial; actually taking notes. A "tinted clear finish" isn't what I had/have in mind...(and Sorry About That). A Gray tinted as in "gray color (the color gray/shade/tint) " body is what I'm going for. His Strat looks great! But I'm all-for having the grain standng-out as it actually "is." By "grain" I mean the "swirls" or what-have-you---the "those lines" things that stand out from the lighter parts of the wood. IOW, the grain that needs to Get-Filled Since I'm also going for a flat(ened) final finish.....Making any sense thus far, this round? I hope so! From my notes both right-here & @ GF's Ash Strat I'm learning things related and continue to be confused at the same time. (Except I'm not blaming anybody for the confusion, outside of my own inexperience)! Mr. G.F. said, among other things; Ash can be finished in many different ways. I'll take that for granted and am still looking-for just what I wanna do! As has been *noted* (right here) I can do the StewMac Black-Epoxy Method if I want to just clear-coat it, having that "baseball bat ash" Stand-Out-Like. (I rilly do think this is a Hard Ash Body)! Now. Getting this thread up to snuff; that's my job! Though I'm still perplexed about several "steps" (in whatever Method/Order they (each) can be done in); here's just what I have going. I'm gonna both "fill the grain" (those swiring deals) with Black Epoxy, StewMac's or hardware store. Then I'm gonna level-sand it down and look at it. Another application of the Black-Epoxy may be in order then, I dunno yet. the whole point is that I'm going to "fill the grain" with this Black-Epoxy. After maximum-sanding---Mr. G.F. says it takes what seems like "years"---I'll have that "bare wood" (which is "above" the wood that just got epoxy-GRAIN-filled, black). At that point I can go ahead and make the thing a "baseball bat" with Wipe-On coats of Poly. Or, I can "stain" (tint/shade) it with regular ol' wood-stain as what I've sanded down is yer Basic Bare Wood. Then, finish the job with however many coats of Poly are needed/ I like. Plz forgive me, once more, on whatever "steps" I've missed or if I'm doing this Bass Ackwards. As a final note for now---that woudl be a "no"---I don't want to use a "tinted clear-coat." (My Bad). A "tinted" (Gray "shade") is what I meant. Put another way, the swirly-grain I want Black. The other. lighter, not-swirly-wood, Gray (Haze Gray for any of you Squidly types)....I'm ex-US Navy: it's the color of Ships. In any event, I'm curious as to how all this might work out. If I have Y'all More Confused than I am (???). ...Now. Where's that black shoe dye????.... Edited October 18, 2004 by rick_here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 So, you want to: fill the grain with black epoxy dye the wood gray use clear (completely, untinted clear) wipe on poly Sounds good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_here Posted October 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 (edited) skibum- Plz excuse me....(I was editing out typos/details). So, you want to: fill the grain with black epoxy dye the wood gray use clear (completely, untinted clear) wipe on poly More or less....I mean, Definately-(Maybe)...... See, I have an Ash Body (swamp? or yankee-fied?) that has those Swirly-Grains that hafta get filled up. I want them to be Black when & after I do that. As in, the final product/picture.... "Grain-Fillers" (of the guitar grain fillers variety) are stuff that I've never managed to hafta encounter thus far in my 48 & 3/4th's Life. But now, I Yam. Mr. Guitar Frenzy made his pictorial that had an Ash Body. I read & looked at it, taking notes. At one point he said he was gonna use "StewMac's Grain Filler later" after the Black Epoxy as-his-chosen-grain-filler-scenario....At which point I got "lost" again b/c he never mentioned using that afterwards.... Surely enuf, I'd be glad to "dye" the remaining not-swirly-lines (those black, lower-level, epoxy-grain-filled) wood-things in the tint/shade/color of: US Navy Ship's's "Haze Gray." But whether it's dye---actual dye---or just a regular ol' wood stain, I'm thinking; all's I wanna do is Do-This! So, no I wouldn't be all that interested in (literally) "dying" the wood as I can get a proximally-colored wood stain to fit the billet. Stated another way, I don't wanna hafta buy several "wood tints" from StewMac to achieve the correct wood-dye-shade-Gray-color. On accounta, I can do it easier at Walmart's (or Lowe's), etc. They have Wood Stains that are gonna be close-enuf!!! The sanding-down after the Black-Epoxy-(Project Guitar "Tip"/StewMac)-Grain-Filler will reveal: Fresh Wood, unstained/tinted/dyed/colored or what have you. I want that to be: gray. My plan, thus far....... Edited October 18, 2004 by rick_here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 First off, I used the black slow setting epoxy that Stew Mac sells simply because I wanted to really see the grain show through the burst. First off dying Ash isn't a good thing, the color always seems to be blotchy and uneven no matter how I applied and sanded. All you have to do is get a test piece of ash and try it yourself, then you'll know what I'm talking about. So basically, the best way to apply any color is by using a mixed paint that will dry transparent. I'm not sure what kind of paint your wanting to use, but you will need a spray gun to pull this off. So here is what steps we took: 1. Applied slow setting epoxy in sections by using a plastic squeegee to press the epoxy deep into the grains moving with the grain holding it at a 45°. 2. Let it dry overnight. 3. Sand level, until the pores are the same height as the rest of the wood. 4. Repeat steps 1-3 5. Sand guitar completely smooth with 220 grit. 6. Spray the transparent blue. 7. Spray the black burst. 8. Spray clear coats 9. Sand, buff and done Hope this helps.. Matt Vinson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_here Posted October 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 (edited) Dear Matt "Mr. GuitarFrenzy" Vinson- First off, I used the black slow setting epoxy that StewMac sells simply because I wanted to really see the grain show through the burst. On page 13 of your Making of a Strat (picto-tutorial) I got a tad thrown off by the pics. The can of StewMac Color Tone sitting behind the epoxy bottles; I didn't know if you had used it to pre-mix the 2-part epoxies black (or what?). So, I'll go with the Slow-Set, Black then.First off dying Ash isn't a good thing, the color always seems to be blotchy and uneven no matter how I applied and sanded. All you have to do is get a test piece of ash and try it yourself, then you'll know what I'm talking about.I'll do however much testing I'll need to do in the Pup-Routes b/c I don't have any other Ash available. Also, dying is out of the question, I've learned.So basically, the best way to apply any color is by using a mixed paint that will dry transparent. I'm not sure what kind of paint your wanting to use, but you will need a spray gun to pull this off.Once again, I apologize for how I (mis-)worded this thread's title. Thoh I really like how your Strat looked! it's just not what I'm going for, this round anyway (Round One). IOW, I want the standing-out (black) grain to show out a lot, just like you did. A transparent or "transcluscent/tinted" finish---I don't wanna have that. I want just a plain ol' clear one. So you can see the exact definitions of the grain! Yet I may want to have the body "colored" in a shade of Gray. (Depends on what it looks like after sanding). Question: could I stain the wood after "sanding down" the Black-Epoxy/Grain-Filler?So here is what steps we took: 1. Applied slow setting epoxy in sections by using a plastic squeegee to press the epoxy deep into the grains moving with the grain holding it at a 45°. 2. Let it dry overnight. 3. Sand level, until the pores are the same height as the rest of the wood. 4. Repeat steps 1-3 5. Sand guitar completely smooth with 220 grit.Gotcha, & thanx some more (some more).6. Spray the transparent blue. 7. Spray the black burst. 8. Spray clear coats 9. Sand, buff and done Hope this helps....Every little bit helps! In summary; I don't want to use "transparent paint" but will use Wipe-On Poly (clear). It won't get bursted. So how to get it "colored Gray" is my only remaining question (if I decide to do that after seeing how it looks "in the natural"). Thanks, thanks, thanks! rick ><> Edited October 19, 2004 by rick_here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 If you want the wood to be a solid gray, with the pores being black, you need to paint the body first with gray, then use the black epoxy, sand back, then spray your clear. That way the grain will still be seen. This is the same type method Gibson uses on their Voodoo Guitars, except in this case they spray solid black, then red grain fill with whatever that might be. Check out this link. If your going for a light gray transparent look, so that you can see the wood grain. Do the same method as described earlier, except mix the gray paint with clear until you get the right mixture you want and go for it. Of course always practice on scrap pieces first, that is truely the only way to test it out to see. Really it depends on what kind of paint your gonna be using, we only use automotive poly though simply because of it's tough finish and shine, but lacquer works equally as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SawDust_Junkie Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Hey Guitarfrenzy, in your Strat tutorial, you used the black epoxy and then sanded flat. It looked to me like the sanding resulted in most of the coloring from the epoxy being removed, except for in the actual grain pattern of the wood. This had the effect of making the grain stand out tremendously, without alot of extra tinting of the wood istelf. I am thinking about doing something similar on my Strat. I was considering just applying a light brown (Walnut) oil based grain filler, and then sanding flat, and then clear coating with nitro cellulose. Do you think this would give me the same "grain popping" effect while allowing me to pretty much keep the natural color of the Ash ? I was not going to use any tinting in the clear coat, just clear nitro cellulose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Hey Guitarfrenzy, in your Strat tutorial, you used the black epoxy and then sanded flat. It looked to me like the sanding resulted in most of the coloring from the epoxy being removed, except for in the actual grain pattern of the wood. This had the effect of making the grain stand out tremendously, without alot of extra tinting of the wood istelf. I am thinking about doing something similar on my Strat. I was considering just applying a light brown (Walnut) oil based grain filler, and then sanding flat, and then clear coating with nitro cellulose. Do you think this would give me the same "grain popping" effect while allowing me to pretty much keep the natural color of the Ash ? I was not going to use any tinting in the clear coat, just clear nitro cellulose. Your exactly right, the grain pores are the only parts that should be tinted after level sanded. That's the effect your looking for. Now the reason I used epoxy is because it's a really, really hard grain filler. That leaves the tendancy of other grain fillers to shrink some out of the picture. The real thing you want to make sure of is applying more than one coating for deep pore ash. Some ash has deeper pores than others, so just to make sure the grain fills correctly I'd suggest repeating the grain filling process twice and letting it dry good each time. Sure you can use whatever grain filler you want, but I can't guarantee good results. You can however use any two part slow setting epoxy you buy and mix whatever color you want to tint it with the epoxy. Hope this helps.. Matt Vinson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_here Posted October 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 (edited) 'Been busy with some other stuff.... OK. Between what Matt ("Guitarfrenzy") and Fender4me (nice meeting you, btw) have added...I think I've come up with a game plan. It's a "modified version" of what I've learned on this thread and what I already had in mind. Since I'm going to do everything by the wipe-on method, spraying anything won't be done. That rules out the "Voodoo look" which wasn't what I was thinking anyway. (Yet it is another possible future option on other guitars = Thanx!). And just like Fender4me; I want all of the grain to show thru. Which rules out tinting any spray-on finishes with the chosen color I want (as I won't be spraying to begin with). Though Matt's Strat looks Great! I don't want any of the grain to be "blurred" (for lack of vocab.) "by the tint" of a transparent-tinted-finish on this project. But, once again, it's a Cool-Idea...for something-future. Here's my current plan (for the "gray" body, that would be): (1) I'll stain the bare wood with Minwax Pastels Stain probably with the "Slate Gray" color. I'll apply it liberally and/or use extra coats to allow for deep absorption into the wood. (2) Following that with one (or two) of Matt's "StewMac Black Epoxy Grain-Filling Method," as needed. (3) Final coatings (the finishing of the finishing) with (clear) Minwax Wipe-On Poly as many as it takes/ I like. I'm figuring as long the stain sufficiently & evenly penetrates into the wood the "gray" will be preserved after sanding-down the Epoxy Grain-Filler. Also, I wouldn't mind some of the non-deeper-grains (the whiter, non-grainy, parts of the Ash) to also have some of their finer grains "highlighted" in black by the Black-Epoxy. After final-coatings (and the last coat) of the Wipe-On Poly what I should have would be: A Gray colored Ash body with all grains (both deep and more surface-ish) standing-out in black. It'll be gray and every single grain will be clearly highlighted. Make sense to you? (It does to me).... Edited October 21, 2004 by rick_here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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