Frame Works Guitar

[antique_dream]

Does anyone know if it is possible to make a guitar similar to a frameworks guitar? What kind of problems would I run into?

http://www.frameworks-guitars.com/index.html

[jnewman]

Does anyone know if it is possible to make a guitar similar to a frameworks guitar? What kind of problems would I run into?

http://www.frameworks-guitars.com/index.html

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I can't see why you coudn't, or any particular problems you'd run in to. I guess if you try to do it EXACTLY the same way, with the "headstock" where the bridge normally goes you might have trouble finding the right sort of thing to put where the nut normally is.

There are plenty of places everywhere that can bend pipe; you could get the two pipe pieces for pretty cheap, and then you'd basically just be building a backwards (tuners at the bridge, tailpiece at the headstock) neck-through blank.

EDIT: They look sort of silly, though - it looks like they're trying to make it a solid-stick acoustic with a piezo pickup or something. I can't imagine it'd have enough volume to play without an amp, and if you add an amp 1. the portability (which seems to be the whole point, to me at least) goes down the tube and 2. you might as well just use a regular pickup.

If you want to make an electric guitar like that, go for it - if you're trying for an acoustic, I would think you'd be much better off with something like the martin backpacking guitar (they don't sound very good, but at least it has a sound chamber and you'd be able to hear it).

Edited March 5, 2005 by jnewman

[TenderSurrender]

Heh that looks SOO weird!

I have to agree with jnewman, the sound coming from that could be very quiet... thus meaning needing to carry an amp, n so defeating the object they are selling it for

All that said, i again agree with jnewman, i cant see why you wouldnt make one exactly the same. May be very difficult... you MUST throw us some pictures when your doing/done the project!

~~ Slain Angel ~~

[antique_dream]

thanks everyone for the suggestions.

the reason why i want to make one is because i need a classical guitar (7 or 8 string, haven't decided yet) that won't get really crazy going from different weather conditions, especially since 7 or 8 string classicals pretty much have to be custom made. i catch the bus in really cold weather sometimes, then go into abnormally warm buildings. i get really paranoid about wood getting messed up on acoustic instruments. it will mostly be for silent practice anyway. Also, the places i go to practice usually have amps. I've considered trying out a solid model, but i like the fact that it is so portable. If it doesn't work out, though, i think I'll definitely go for a solid body.

I originally wanted to buy their 7 string classical model, but i can't locate a place to buy one in the US. The e-mail i sent to the dealer they have on their site was never answered.

A few questions...

how should I start?

what can I use for a bridge?

Can locking tuners be used with nylons?

I'll probably be starting this in the summer (after classes end).

Also, i had a cool idea that might work with these frameworks guitars-

if the right piece were made as a "joiner", you could make a double neck out of any two of their guitars!!! I switch back and forth from Steel to nylon string ( i study classical and jazz), so this would be awesome- it might be the most portable doubleneck ever!!!

-Nathan

[GregP]

Do you want to include MIDI functionality, or just have the guitar itself? I wonder how tricky it would be to install a MIDI system on a custom guitar....

Greg

[jnewman]

how should I start?

This is something that, to my knowledge, noone on this forum has tried - so you should start by planning out EVERYTHING. Very carefully. What parts you're going to use, how you're going to put it together, how the parts will fit and work, etc.

what can I use for a bridge?

Are you trying to make it exactly like a frameworks, with the tuners at the heel? Personally, I wouldn't, as it complicates things a lot. You probably won't be able to find a seven-string anything that will, stock, allow you to build a guitar just like a frameworks. I'd have the hardware in the normal direction, and then I could just build it like a normal guitar.

Can locking tuners be used with nylons?

I'm not sure... they might cut the strings. Most nylon-string guitars have the normal tuner-through-headstock tuners, so this is something that probably hasn't been done too often.

[tirapop]

You've seen Yamaha silent string guitars, right? I think I like their composite sides a little better than the foam covered pipes of the frameworks. Here's a smaller version of the quiet practice instrument, the idiot stick ukulele, with a homemade piezo pickup.

How to start? Buy a piece of wood. Nylon strings don't require a truss rod.

Classical guitars use wooden bridges with a slot for a plastic saddle... sounds like a plan. Use a commercial undersaddle piezo or homebrew one.

I don't know that you'd actually need locking tuners.

I couldn't find any good pics on Google, but, Gretsch made a guitar called the Bikini. The narrow self contained guitar slid into rails in a larger guitar body. They made a double neck body that had two sets of rails, like the "joiner" you've described. There's a picture of it in "Electric Guitars and Basses - A Photographic History" by George Gruhn & Walter Carter. I have a copy checked out from the library.

[ooten2]

My first concern on this design is that my right hand might bump into the tuners while I'm playing. But it' a cool idea. The doubleneck idea is great, too. It could be manufactured with detachable doublenecks, so one night you do the nylon, steel thing; and the next night you do a bass, nylon; etc.

I love new ideas. Keep us all posted.

[darren wilson]

I think the Steinberger gearless tuners would work really well in a "reverse" application such as this. You'd just have to route the body behind the bridge to the right thickness to accommodate them.

Use a piezo pickup and then run the signal out to a mic modeler like Yamaha's AG Stomp or MagicStomp Acoustic to get realistic acoustic sounds for headphones or running into an amp.

[antique_dream]

Wow, you guys are really inspiring me, Thanks. I'm not going to try midi right now, I don't think I really need it in a guitar.

As for the yamaha guitar, I actually don't like their frame as much as the frameworks ones. I also like the fact that they are steel. I think the yamaha ones are plastic.

Ideally, I would want a way to plug headphones directly into the guitar, so if i could figure out some way of integrating that, it would be great. If not, a basic piezo output would be fine, i'll just bring a practice amp. A for piezo's though, I've never worked with them- would it be hard to locate one wide enough to accomodate a 7 or 8 string range?

I like those tuners, very cool. If locking tuners won't work, I should be able to use normal tuners, though, right? I also like the "backwards" design for some reason.It seems like it might add to the durability- a slanted headstock makes me nervous, so i'll spend a little extra time thinking about it if it will make it less fragile.

One question, if i do an 8 string, can i use a set of mandolin tuners? i happen to have a spare set lying around...(I realize i might have to drill the holes wider on the tuners), but for nylon strings, shouldn't that be OK?

Thanks for the ideas, though.

-Nathan

[antique_dream]

OK, so I'm planning out this project and I'm just wondering a few things:

If I want to finish this faster, I was thinking of buying a neck-through neck and modifying it into being the guitar. I''ve decided, for now, I will start with a steel string 7 string guitar, so that I can use a regular magnetic pickup with a volume knob. Later, I will focus on a nylon string guitar and start messing with piezos.

So here's a few questions:

WHere is a good place to get a neck-through 7 string neck from? I've looked at the one from carvin, but can't seem to find anything else. I still want to go with the reverse design, so I am wondering what I should do about the headstock.

What kind of bridge would be good to use? My first thought was a tune-o-matic, maybe I would have to sink it into the wood to get it low enough? My other thought was to make a simple version of the type of bridge that an archtop guitar usually has, with a wooden base and a bone saddle, but I would like to be able to change the action/intonation quickly.

For tuners, I think I'll just get 7 locking ones from warmoth (they are the only place I know where I can get any number I want, rather than buy in sets). If I could get those steinberg ones in a set of 7, that would be awesome, though.

For the piping, what kind of place should I go to in order to get it shaped into the size I need? Also, does anyone know if there is a lightweight pipe that would be most suitable for this type of project? Also, Is there anything I can coat it in to make it softer?

I was looking at these pictures while coming up with these ideas-

http://www.frameworks-guitars.com/look.html

If you have any suggestions/ warnings, I'd be glad to hear them. I'm planning to start this in the summer, so I have a lot of time to plan. As soon as I come up with some drawings, I'll post them.

-Nathan

[tirapop]

So, you want to buy a 7-string guitar and cobble it down, put on new locking tuners, and have custom bent tube sides? That's a lot of coin. How much do those frameworks guitars cost?

I say scratch build, nylon strings. Classicals have no-radius necks. Fingerboard and fret levelling just got easier. No truss rod... check. Under saddle piezos can be found for under $100. You can make the saddle wide enough for 7 strings on top and undercut the bottom to fit onto the piezo. This is a practice instrument, right? The Frameworks guitar appears to use individual piezo saddles, but, they're pretty much in a line like a regular saddle would be. You can lift their design of the tieblock and the tuner arrangement.

You seem to like the foam covered tubes, but, they make me think of exercise equipment. It would much cooler to take thin strips of wood and do a bent wood laminations in the shape of a guitar. Maybe some leather in the places prone wear and where it rides against your body.

[antique_dream]

tirapop,

Those Frameworks guitars start at $1800, I got the price list from the dealer today. The 7 string model is $2500 without midi!!!

Personally, i think that is too much money for that guitar, building one would be way cheaper.

I haven't done fret work yet, so that's what I'm afraid of. I decided on steel string only because I could get a neck easier, and the pickup system seemed to be less complex. ideally, i'd rather do a nylon, so Maybe I should just face my fear

Someone I talked to today mentioned to me that I should try doing the sides out of wood, so i might try that instead. I'm coming up with a different design for the sides, though. As soon as i decide the one I want to do, I'll post a pic.

Can you tell me how to locate the appropriate Piezo? For some reason I thought they were hard to come by.. Am I not looking in the right places?

The tieblock looks easy, but I would change one thing about their tuner arrangement. Rather than route out two different cavities, I think I would route one large one that covered that whole area. It seems like there isn't enough room to get the strings in with my fat fingers

About the truss rod, In a 7 or 8 string model, can you still get away without having one?

[Guitarfrenzy]

Very neat new design. I also like seeing someone doing something different for a change. First off, the RMC pickup with MIDI is probably the 13 pin one that hooks up to standard Guitar Synth's , like my Roland GR-33, etc. Also, I don't think it would too hard to make, just study up before you start is the best advice anyone could give. Good luck on your ambitious project!!

[tirapop]

I sketched up a couple bizarre alternatives to tubing.

They keep the Frame Works idea of tuners-in-the-body, but, under a cover.

The first sketch uses a bent wood lamination to form the lower part of the body. There's just a chunk of wood on top to rest your arm against. Both of those parts would be removeable.

The second sketch is similarly minimal and odd looking. It's sort of inspired by competition target rifles that look sculptural and have lots of adjustable pieces sticking out of them.

[antique_dream]

I can't seem to view your sketches, can you e-mail them to me? I've been drawing up a few, but haven't really settled on anything. I am seriously considering this idea, though-

For the upper "horns", i think it would be really cool if they didn't actually connect with the body, it would give it even more of a silouhette look if only the bottom connects. It sounds strange, but it's hard to describe. I'll try to get a picture up soon.

[bassman]

Go for it,

As for the piezo pickup, I use Fishmans natural 1 on my basses and love the sound from them. Find a dealer and they order the piezo an extra 1/2" long (3" I believe). The highlander piezo is availble in very long lengths, as it is a flexible coaxial pickup, you can get it 20" long if that is what you need. Making an acoustic bridge with a piezo saddle under the bone saddle is quite easy- just take your time and make sure that the bottom of the saddle slot is dead flat. Another thing to consider is tring tension, if you use a set of strings with different tensions among them then the higher tensioned strings will be louder than the lower tensioned string (at least with a single piezo pup). Two ways two remedy this are to use perfectly balanced strings, or use individual piezo pups for each string, and each of those ha its own volume control so you can even all the strings out. Good luck....

[antique_dream]

WOW, thanks, that really helps. I'll definitely start looking into that. THe electronics were the part that I was really worrying about. I have a friend that will help me with the woodwork, so I wasn't concerned about that.

about your basses- will this pickup work for an electric upright? THat's the other project I'm planning out, but not as seriously as this one.

-Nathan

[tirapop]

Oops. That was my first attempt at posting images from yahoo. Follow this link.