The Secret Life Of Pentatonics

[psw]

The Secret Life of Pentatonics: Part 1

The Magic "So What" Chord.

This thread is going to look at something that may seem a bit weird and boring at first but if you stick with it you'll be hooked and be breathing new life into those old pentatonic rock and blues licks before you know it! (or may be you wont…we'll have to see!)

In a thread that was looking at favorite chords, fellow aussie, mutronboy posted this little beauty that I've transposed to the 7th fret:

---7---

---8---

---7---

---7---

---7---

---x---

Mutronboy plays in a Zappa Tribute band and came across the formation in Frank's piece 'Zoot Allures' and listed it as one, if not his fav chord. Now Frank wasn't afraid of a little cutting edge theory so I started to explain it a little...theoretically.

I realised though that the whole subject is so cool that I thought I'd share it with you on it's own thread.

You'd be surprised what a little theory can do…this is pretty cool…so stick with me a bit!

Just so you know…I did a degree majoring in music at University and I've always been fascinated by this stuff. You'll be hard pressed to find what I'll be showing though in any book that I know of, so you'll have to bear with me in my roundabout way of explaining things off the top of my head.

OK there are a couple of ways to look at this chord. If you wanted to name it using traditional harmony (chord theory) you might call it an Em7(add4). Note: It's not suspended as a suspended 4th replaces the third. Here the 3rd (g) and the 4th (a) coexist so it would be marked as added. You could also call it a simple Em11 just, as well…up to you. I'm going to call it a Magic Chord!

If you play it with the open E on the bottom you'll here it very much sounds like an Em7 chord:

---7--- b 5th

---8--- g 3rd

---7--- d 7th

---7--- a 4th

---7--- E Root

--(0)-- E Root

By adding the fourth (instead of suspending the third) it gives the chord a kind of open, unresolved kind of sound…OK, so it's probably more of an 11th sound…so conventional chord theory allows us to name a chord, I want to do more than that…and I hope you do too!

Now…I know it as the "So What" chord after the opening track of Miles Davis's terrific album of 1958…Kind Of Blue. This album was in part a reaction to the bop era by introducing modal jazz. Instead of more and more complex changes and hard bop playing, Miles, Coltrane, Cannonball and the boys used modal melodies and themes in a much more lyrical way. A large part of how this new style worked was the chordal playing of the pianist…Bill Evans. On this, the following has been said of this track:

"The chording by pianist Bill Evans gives the impression of harmonic changes, but this is merely an illusion…" Tirro, Frank: Jazz, A History"

[psw]

The Secret Life of Pentatonics: Part 2

The Magic Chord and Quartal Harmony

OK…so here's that Magic "So What" chord again:

---7--- b

---8--- g

---7--- d

---7--- a

---7--- E

--(0)--(E)

What Evan's brought to the session, was a harmony based on fourths instead of thirds. The track "So What" uses only the above form of chord.

Quartal Harmony

But here's another way to look at this Magic chord using Quartal Harmony:

---x---

---8--- g

---7--- d

---7--- a

---7--- E

---7--- b

Here I've simply taken the high note on the high e string and put it down on the low e to illustrate how the chord is truly made of a stack of notes all a Perfect 4th above one another. That is: B-E, E-A, A-D, D-G are all intervals of a perfect fourth apart.

Hence quartal harmony, harmony based on 4ths rather than the conventional 3rds of traditional theory.

Remember that the guitar is tuned in 4ths so that a bar across the strings will be a stack of consecutive 4ths except at the b string, which is a major 3rd, so to continue the sequence you need to raise it a fret. It's easy to use the guitar as a kind of slide rule to find perfect 4ths as it will be the note on the string above or below a given string…except for the cross over between the g and b strings.

Now, as I said, I first came across the chord in Miles Davis's classic opening track "So What" from one, if not the best jazz album of all time, "Kind of Blue". Quartal harmony features extensively on the album especially in the playing of the pianist Bill Evans. This opening track is a great way of introducing your self to jazz and in particular the modal school of playing. It's a great track to jam on so here's the basics:

"So What"

-------------------------------------------------|------------7--------5---------|----

-------------------------------------------------|------------8--------6---------|----

-------------------------------------------------|------------7--------5---------|---

-------------------------------------------------|------------7--------5---------|---

-------5------------------5----7----------5----|------------7--------5---------|--

-----------5----7----8--------------8----------|----5---------------------------|----

On the track the opening melody (and simple variations) is played on bass and the two chords answer. The form is AABA with the B section moved up one fret to Eb . The improv is in D dorian…simple, that's the C major scale starting on D.

Of course Miles and Evans weren't the first to use it. The Oxford Dictionary of Music says

"Quartal Harmony: This term became commonly current in the '30's and '40's as distinguishing a chordal system based on the interval of a fourth, as the long traditional system was on the interval of the third."

But that's all they have to say on the matter but there is a lot more to it than that. It was particularly of interest to impressionistic composers such as Debussy and Stravinsky amongst others. And of course Frank Zappa too!

[psw]

The Secret Life of Pentatonics: Part 3

The Magic Chord and The Pentatonic Scale

So…what has this got to do with your average guitar player!!!!!!!!!!

A-ha

Let's look at the chord in another way before you completely lose interest…oh you have…well perhaps this will grab you:

---7--- b

---8--- g

---7--- d

---7--- a

---7--- E

--(0)--(E)

Lets look at the chord as a sequence of notes…a scale rather than a harmony of fourths…a little rearranging and…hey presto…our Magic quartal chord is revealed to be….

Quartal Chord notes in fourths: (E) E A D G B

Becomes………da, dahhhh....: E G A B D (E)

Or the guitarist's favorite, garden variety, no frills E MINOR PENTATONIC SCALE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, all I've done is to rearrange the chord so the notes are played as a scale, or alphabetical sequence of notes.

So now let's take our fourths and treat as a scale:

The Scale of Fourths

B____E____A____D____G____C____F___A#/Bb___D#/Eb___G#/Ab___C#/Db___F#/Gb___B

So if we take any five notes from this sequence we'll get our Magic chord and/or our Pentatonic Scale so:

….b, E, a, d, g……..= E G A B D = E minor Pentatonic

….e, A, d, g, c……..= A C D E G = A minor Pentatonic

---12--- e

---13--- c

---12--- g

---12--- d

---12--- A

---(x)---

So it follows…(to go to the extreme end of the scale)

….a#,D#,g#,c#,f#….= D# F# G# A# C# = D# minor Pentatonic

BTW1: Satanic Metal Heads may appreciate that this is actually the Circle of Fifths….Backwards!

BTW2: Country and New Age players can transpose E minor Pentatonic to be G major…the whole theory will work for major but let's stick with the minor pentatonic for now…OK!

So let's call this observation of mine: Pentatonic Theory and The Scale Of Fourths

[psw]

The Secret Life of Pentatonics: Part 4

Pentatonic Theory and The Scale Of Fourths

So…hopefully…you'll see that there is a relationship between the pentatonic scale and my Scale of Fourths and Quartal Harmony and that our Magic chord, based solely on fourths, spells out the entire scale…there are no wrong notes. This phrase… there are no wrong notes…will become more important in the near future so hold on.

I'm not saying that the minor pentatonic is derived from quartal harmony…it's useful to think of it in terms of a minor scale with some notes missing. I suspect that most people, like me, who've looked into modal playing and the theory behind that, often are really thinking in terms of the minor pentatonic with added or changed notes.

It should be noted that the pentatonic scales are practically universal as the scale of choice for most folk and popular melody around the world. Rock, Blues, Country, Celtic…Japanese 5 note scales…Medieval Troubadour Music…

What I am (hopefully) doing is slowly bending your mind to a different way of understanding, organizing and as a result, using pentatonic scales through the understanding Quartal Harmony and theory, even if you are not playing music based on the concept. It works because there is an innate relationship, which I hope you see now, between the common pentatonic scale...that we all know and love…and the Scale of Fourths.

In some way's it's easier than normal harmony. Instead of stacking various combinations of major and minor thirds through a couple of octaves for each chord (or key centre) till you have a chord and all it's extensions…just to derive a chord name…and then trying to work out which mode or scale or whatever to use, this theory is based solely on one interval the Perfect Fourth and, through it's relation to the pentatonic scale, serves to make it accessible especially to us six stringers.

Ok…so let's look at this "scale" again:

The Scale of Fourths

B____E____A____D____G____C____F___A#/Bb___D#/Eb___G#/Ab___C#/Db___F#/Gb___B

Each successive group of 5 notes (the root being the second note of that group being the ROOT for minor the last being the ROOT for major) gives us our Pentatonic Scale…and…each successive appearance is only one note different from the last so:

….b, E, a, d, g……..= E G A B D = E minor Pentatonic

….e, A, d, g, c……..= A C D E G = A minor Pentatonic

[psw]

The Secret Life of Pentatonics: Part 5

Conventional Chord theory applied to the Scale of Fourths

Let's just bring the magic chord back:

---7--- b

---8--- g

---7--- d

---7--- a

---7--- E

--(0)--(E)

Now…I'm not sure how many of you know about conventional chord theory…so this will be a quick and dirty explanation:

OK….here's C major

C__D__E___F___G___A___B

Now if you take every second note for three notes you get the C major Triad:

C__D__E___F___G___A___B

Now above the triads you get extensions to the chord:

C__D__E___F___G___A___B

R---9---3----11-----5-----6------7

Alright….forget that for now!!!!

Try this: Consider the Scale of Fourths and it's resultant chords in a similar way:

OK we noticed that the first two Magic Chords / Pentatonic Scales have only one note different…C replaces the b.

….b, E, a, d, g……..= E G A B D = E minor Pentatonic

….e, A, d, g, c……..= A C D E G = A minor Pentatonic

OK…now consider the next note in the scale of fourths as an extension to our Magic Chord:

So we'd get the sequence E G A B C D

Here's a way of playing it as a six-note chord:

---8--- c

---8--- g

---7--- d

---7--- a

---7--- E

---7---{B}

Hopefully you'll be able to hear this as an extension of the same chord just as the 7th is an extension of the same chord:

OK…just in case you don’t get it:

__C__Cmaj7

---0------0----

---1------0----

---0------0----

---2------2----

---3------3----

---x------x----

Still C, just a different type….If you were to add all the extensions it might get less and less C like…OK.

Also…you run out of strings so we can't include all the notes and will have to sacrifice some or it won't fit on the guitar!

So…if you play our magic chord with the low E:

---7--- b

---8--- g

---7--- d

---7--- a

---7--- E

---0--- E

Then play our second chord from the sequence…under the same root and try and hear it as an extension of the original chord:

---12--- e

---13--- c

---12--- g

---12--- d

---12--- a

---0---- E

Now I hope you're actually playing this because it's the only way you'll get it. This is where a lot of theory goes wrong…it's just stuff you learn…for it to work you've got to hear it…and let's face it, it's a pretty easy chord to play…so play it!

Alright…now we'll call that Am11 in conventional chord theory, the first extension of the E Magic Chord.

Now play this:

---5--- a

---6--- f

---5--- c

---5--- g

---5--- d

---0--- E

Now with conventional theory….Dm11…forget that…I want you to hear it as the second extension of our E magic chord…not a D chord!

Now...go through each extension…hearing each as an extension of the same E magic chord. Here's the next one…we'll call it our third extension:

---10--- d

---11--- c

---10--- f

---10--- c

---10--- g

---0---- E

Get the idea?…then get to it…!....Play!!!

Eventually you will have played the chord on every possible note…because as we'll see in the next post…the Scale of Fourths indeed contains every possible note.

Now just to get your interest back…this theory then suggests that…there are no wrong notes. What this theory is implying…as we'll soon see… is that every and any appearance of this chord is in some way an extension of the original.

Now…we know that the magic scale is in fact the pentatonic scale expressed as a chord. It therefore follows that if any appearance of this chord is an extension of the original (in this case E) chord then any pentatonic scale may be played over it and in some way relate through the extensions of the Scale of Fourths

This phrase… there are no wrong notes…will become more important in the near future so hold on.

[psw]

The Secret Life of Pentatonics: Part 6

Scale of Fourths and the Chromatic Scale

Ok…so if we take the "Scale of Fourths" and rearrange it in a straight sequence you get the chromatic scale…Check this out!

The Scale of Fourths

B____E____A____D____G____C____F___A#/Bb___D#/Eb___G#/Ab___C#/Db___F#/Gb___B

Chromatic Scale

B___ C __ C#/Db ___D___ D#/Eb ___ E ___F___ F#/Gb__ G ___ G#/Ab ___ A ___A#/Bb ___B

Same thing right…different order!

BTW when I refer to the Scale of Fourths I'm really talking about using the stacking of fourths like a measuring stick…the "scale" of a ruler.

So…if you hadn't already noticed… our Scale of Fourths contains all possible notes…in other words, it's just another way of organizing the chromatic scale.

If you haven't done it already…go back to the last post and play all the extensions of the scale of fourths….

OK, OK…so you don’t want to have to figure them all out and name them…blah, blah…ok try this!

Don't worry about the order…just play the chord shape on any and every fret with the low E ringing and try to hear it as an extension of the same E chord sound…if you get my meaning.

It's important to be able to hear this effect for this stuff to have any real benefit or change in the way you think apply it to your practical playing.

[psw]

The Secret Life of Pentatonics: Part 7

Reality Check…there are no wrong notes???

Ok…let's summarize a little:

1. Our Magic Chord is derived from a stack of fourths…we're calling this a Scale of Fourths

2. The Scale of Fourths is just a way of organizing the Chromatic Scale…it contains every possible note

3. The Magic chord can be moved around to create extensions of it…any appearance of this chord shape (or the notes within it) will relate back to the Scale of Fourths

4. The Magic Chord can easily be rearranged to reveal the notes of a pentatonic scale…the Magic Chord = the Pentatonic Scale

5. Each appearance of the chord or the pentatonic scale taken in sequence along our Scale of Fourths is one note changed from the previous…For example, A minor pentatonic is only one note © from the E minor Pentatonic (.

6. Any appearance of this chord (or the scale made up of it's notes…the pentatonic) relates to the original chord or scale…even if the resultant chord contains none of the original notes of the chord.

7. If you bend your ear to it…you can hear any appearance of this chord, on any fret…relating back to the original (in our examples Em11 or E minor Pentatonic)

OK…got that?

Right…so it logically follows that any Minor Pentatonic Scale can be related back through our Scale of Fourths to our original key centre/ pentatonic scale/magic chord

Yeah…so maybe you think the magic chord sucks…So What!…(pun intended)[/I]

Well, just as we don't have to play every note…in fact it's often desirable not to…to play extensions of a chord…you don't actually have to play over the Magic Chord…

In our example Em or Em7 or E5 all work just as well.

Another thing…us rock and blues guys think nothing of playing a E minor pentatonic over an E major chord.

This is the same principle as blue notes…they add color and dissonance that works…it's enough that it's in E, right! We don't even come out of the E minor pentatonic when the chord changes…say to A7 in a blues…right!

So what is all this leading too…

What is on offer here is a way to understand that, as long as there is are unifying factors, every note makes logical sense and can be freely used over anything, as long as the unifying factors are upheld. What is different in what I've come up with is that the unifying factor is the common pentatonic scale and it's relation to the chromatic scale (every note scale) via the arrangement of this into the Scale of Fourths.

Now, for this to work you do have to hear all positions of the magic chord as related to a given key centre.

So…if the minor third or flat five notes not wrong in a rock or blues over a major progression, then why?

Because there is an established unifying factor from what we've heard before that gives us an innate sense of hearing this as right even though it's clearly wrong…right! In other words…these notes are outside the scope of being understood by conventional music theory…yet we have no trouble understanding it as both players and/or listeners…what gives!

Well..you could argue that that is why music theory is crap…it can't explain or account for something as simple and common to the music I like and play therefore it's pretty pointless…not so, I say! There's more to this theory than conventional theory…and without all the books and stuff…you can write your own rules!

[psw]

The Secret Life of Pentatonics: Part 8

Get out of here…..!!!!

That's right…we're going outside

Now the secret to outside playing is that you have a framework or logic to it and you know how to get back in! By outside playing I mean using chords that are clearly…wrong! That is seemingly unrelated notes to the key centre

So let's start by going outside just a few steps…

We'll play in E so keep that low E string going or have someone…or record…. some E minor tonality (not necessarily our magic chord)

For reference here's our framework rule:

The Scale of Fourths

B____E____A____D____G____C____F___A#/Bb___D#/Eb___G#/Ab___C#/Db___F#/Gb___B

Ok…we'll use G minor pentatonic

The notes are G Bb C D F…pretty "outside" only the G and D notes are common to E minor pentatonic…and there are no E's

OK…but we know we can get back pretty smoothly if we move back through our above rule…The Scale of Fourths…through D minor pentatonic (D F G A C)…then A minor pentatonic (A C D E G)…back to E minor pentatonic (E G A B D). This strategy gradually brings us back to the core of our E minor sound.

Here's an example, remember this is over E minor

.........G min...............Dmin.......................Amin.................Emin.......................

-----------------------------------------|------------------------------------------|------------------

-8----6------------6-------------------|---5--------------------------------------|------------------

-----------7-------------7----5--------|-----7----5-------------------------------|------------------

----------------8-------------------7---|---------------7-----5-------------------|------------------

-----------------------------------------|--------------------------7-----5-----7~|~(7)~~~~~~

-----------------------------------------|------------------------------------------|-------------------

Ok…let's go right outside and use the same strategy to get back in:

This time we'll play Bb pentatonic (Bb Db Eb F Gb)…now you'll see in this scale there are no notes in common with E minor Pentatonic. In fact it's all wrong by conventional thinking…maj7, b5, b2 worst of all…maj3 in e minor! So with this scale you'd be right out of key and you'd look and sound a little silly if you were to play this….well, we'll see….try this:

..Bb min..........F min.........Cmin............Gmin................Dmin.............Amin..............Emin..........

------------------------|------------------------------|--------------------------------|---------------

6------------------------|-8---------------------------|-10----------------------------|------------------15^(17)

---8-6------------------|----10-8--------------------|-----12-10---------------------|-12---------------

-----------8-6----------|-----------10-8-------------|-----------12-10--------------|----14-12--

------------------8-6---|-----------------10-8------|--------------------12-10-----|------------14--

----------------------8-|--------------------------10-|----------------------------12-|-------------

Now fingering doesn't get too much easier than that…too easy!

Hopefully you'll see and hear the sense in this even though we started with notes far removed from anything seemingly related to E minor!

Now I know these examples may seem a little lame but I'm just trying to illustrate the point and make it accessible…I hope that it's starting to work!

Now…this is called superimposing pentatonics over a harmony and is a pretty common way to play outside…the Scale of Fourths though, gives an effective, new way to get about different key centers and because the 4th is quite a large step…you can get outside or back inside relatively quickly…if you want.

[psw]

The Secret Life of Pentatonics: Part 9

Help…I've got to get back in…Now…..!!!!

So you're probably thinking you have to memorise the Scale of Fourths and walk your way back like I did in the previous examples…wrong! That's one logical way back…retrace your steps.

Another way would be to work you're way backwards (or forwards) till you find yourself with a note or notes in common with the key center (in these examples E minor)

Or you may find the harmony underneath changes to something more in common to where you are or closer to where you were going

Or…you may find you're really far outside but have to get back…quick!

Here's a way to do that…this time the notes are in triplets (groups of 3 notes per beat) rather than the straight 8's (4 notes per beat) of the previous examples:

....Emin..............Fmin.............Bbmin...................Emin..............

--------------------------------------------------------|-------------------

---12^10--8------------------------------------6--9-|-8~~~~~~~~~~

-------------------9--------------------6-----8--------|-------------------

----------------------10--8------6--8-----------------|-------------------

--------------------------------------------------------|-------------------

--------------------------------------------------------|-------------------

It's only on the last note that we suddenly find ourselves back inside again from two completely unrelated pentatonic scales to the key center.

Also…you might ask…how does E F and Bb relate to each other through the Scale of Fourths…

They don’t…obviously!

But they do obscurely!

They relate by virtue of the pentatonic scales that we're using being made up of material from the Scale of Fourths. So, in many cases…if not potentially all (depending on your ear and skill)…your never really far at all from a doorway back in.

The key to being able to successfully do this is to be able to hear these seemingly unrelated pentatonics…these magic chords…as all being extensions of the same chord or pentatonic scale.

All pentatonics are one…and if a tree falls in a forest…etc....that's right...it's a Zen thing...it's simply a matter of mind-shifting a little!

[psw]

The Secret Life of Pentatonics: Part 10

Hey, but I want to stay in…..!!!

Combining Pentatonics

Let's go back to the tune "So What"

-------------------------------------------------|------------7--------5---------|----

-------------------------------------------------|------------8--------6---------|----

-------------------------------------------------|------------7--------5---------|---

-------------------------------------------------|------------7--------5---------|---

-------5------------------5----7----------5----|------------7--------5---------|--

-----------5----7----8--------------8----------|----5---------------------------|----

On the track the opening melody (and simple variations) is played on bass and the chords answer. The form is AABA with the B section moved up one fret to Eb . The improv is in D dorian…simple, that's the C major scale starting on D.

Ok…so the two chords here are Em11 and Dm11…or E minor and D minor Pentatonic.

Now let's combine these two chords/scales

---5--- a

---6--- f

---5--- c

---5--- g

---5--- d

---x---

---7--- b

---8--- g

---7--- d

---7--- a

---7--- E

---x---

C D E F G A B C = C major

Or D E F G A B C D = D dorian

So combining the notes of two Magic Chord forms a step apart form the mode of dorian in relation to the lower of the two.

So…it follows that, if you were to play the notes of these two scales D minor and E minor pentatonic combined…or indeed in separation….you would still be playing completely inside but with a modal sensibility.

If we were to put our mind to it we'd find all kinds of other conventional modes with various combinations…so this is not just about playing outside…you can use it to express inside type sounds and everything in between.

You could also get from outside to a related inside mode a little easier with our combined pentatonics.

[psw]

The Secret Life of Pentatonics: Part 11

So What…Now!

OK…this has taken some time to get to this point but there was a reason to it. You have to gently bend your mind and ear to the concept. If I were to simply say:

Pentatonic Scale = Chromatic scale = there are no wrong choices when using pentatonic scales = all pentatonics relate to each other = any pentatonic scale is the right scale for any key….

You wouldn't believe me…but more importantly, you wouldn't hear it even if you did!

The idea of playing outside is not to choose notes to jerk your listener around…. You perhaps do want to create this effect on your listener:

Whoa…what the F^*(…oh, ok…hey that was pretty cool!

You may want to simply expand your pentatonic playing with a bit of spice or modal type of feel by combining closely related pentatonics….giving you access to modes and more by simply combining or mix'n'matching related pentatonics.

There is another potential…when you get real good at the idea of outside playing.

Remember our C major chords:

__C__Cmaj7

---0------0----

---1------0----

---0------0----

---2------2----

---3------3----

---x------x----

Now most people find that C major seventh chord kind of pretty, plaintiff…perhaps a little wistful…or maybe sappy…whatever!

Now consider that the sound is created by adding a B to a C chord…now play C and B notes together:

---------

---0----

---5----

---------

---------

---------

Now that's dissonant…. bring the other notes in and the prettiness re-emerges:

---0---

---0---

---5---

---5---

---3---

---x---

…even though in this form the adjacent C and B still rub right up against each other.

What I'm trying to suggest is that perhaps that dissonance is not necessarily harsh. So playing notes "outside" need not necessarily be heard as discordant and wrong…dissonances can sound strangely beautiful.

So, there you have it… PSW's Secret Life of Pentatonics…I hope at least someone finds it interesting enough to read it and try it out in their own playing. Anyway…for all it's worth, there it is…there are countless exercises and stuff I could elaborate stuff with, but this is plenty to take in for now.

If anyone want's to discuss it or have me clarify anything…now's the time…reply below!

Have Fun....Pete

[Maiden69]

[psw]

imagine how I feel

I think I'll go and have a lie down

[Daniel Sorbera]

Wow thanks sooooooo much! you have helped me alot! I havn't really gotton through it yet (man thers alot of info in there!) But from what I have read so far it's all good stuff and has helped my playing already.

[TenderSurrender]

Hey man thanks a lot! just started reading through... i can see this being a great help for next year during music A level

imagine how I feel 

I think I'll go and have a lie down

We dont blame you... reading through it is hard enough... writing it must of been a nightmare!

~~ Slain Angel ~~

[Mr.Churchyard]

imagine how I feel

I think I'll go and have a lie down

←

Great, man.

I thought there would be the name of Miles Davis popping up...

Sheer brilliance.

Mods, pin this immediately!!!

....Please?

Edited May 31, 2005 by Mr.Churchyard

[Bigtommyb]

Wow. up to part 5 and im having a break - lots of usfull stuff... just trying to get through it all in 1 go is a bit of a mind melter.

Good work!

BigT

[psw]

Thanks for the positive feedback...you wont need to dwell on the concepts too long...I'm not suggesting that you actually play the scale of fourths...but...it is important to try to hear the magic chord as an extension of the original...once you can get you're ear around that, a lot of the theory will fall away and you'll be able to play it more and more naturally and intuitively.

The theory is simply a means to open your ears to some far out sounds and new ideas!

I hope it works for you guys

pete

[AlGeeEater]

Thats awesome Pete! In school, i learned everything in here, but i understand all of this better. It was harder in school, but now learning this makes me completely understand basic theory!

Awesome man, thanks!

Chris

EDIT:

OK….here's C major

C__D__E___F___G___A___B

I thought the notes for a C major were:

C_E_G_C_e

What are those extra chords, or is that just the scale. I can see C_D_E_F_G_A_B_C_D_E_F_G. Every other note or something? Whats the 2 note gap too between G and C?

Edited May 31, 2005 by AlGeeEater

[psw]

No Wayyyy!!!!

If they teach this kind of theory in school i'd really like to know!...as far as I know the concept is mine!

Sideslipping is a common Jazz term for slipping in and out of a key.

Certainly superimposing pentatonics and such is not original...Larry Carlton for instance uses a scale he refer's to as the SUPER ARPEGGIO which are alternating major and minor thirds stacked upon one another to superimpose triads. Eventually, over a few octaves and repeated notes, it includes all notes within the chromatic scale.

This is a lot trickier to come to terms with than my 12 note "Scale of Fourths" idea. The Super Arpeggio also bears no direct relationship to the pentatonic scale either.

I've never seen the pentatonic explained as a stack of fourths either. Traditionally this or any other scale is seen as an isolated sequence of steps and half steps. By taking a step right outside the traditional way of looking at things, I hope to have opened up some minds and ears to other way's you can hear and think about things.

If there is any systems or techniques for making sense of all 12 chromatic notes like this, I'd love to hear about it (BTW I don't mean 12-tone stuff for instance, that's a different and far stricter compositional tool).

As I've mentioned elsewhere...Allan Holdsworth must be one of the more amazing outside players about, but he has a very unique way of organising things to achieve his results, at least as far as note choice goes. But he is a good example of the potential colors available outside of the five note pentatonics or seven note conventional scales generally used.

Anyway...thanks for the complements...just having a little rant I guess because I just hope this work is not passed over as something people already know!

And if it is...great...but where did you hear about it?

pete

[AlGeeEater]

No Wayyyy!!!!

If they teach this kind of theory in school i'd really like to know!...as far as I know the concept is mine!

←

What i meant was i learned theory, not as much in depth as you. We quickly blew by notes, chord changing(Cmajor to a CMajor7th), circle of fifths, ect ect. We also learned pentatonics too, but here it depends on your teacher. Fourtunatly, my music teacher is excellent. He went to college for about 5 different music courses, plays in a band and has been playing piano, guitar, bass, clavinet, the triangle since he was around 8. He's a great Jazz musician, and thats what he's loved ever since he was around 12. Also his dad used to be a pretty popular musician around the 50's and 60's era(can't think of there name right now ). In my buddies school, his music teacher is still teaching them basic Chords and that type of thing.

Im guessing me learning a bit of theory in school helped me better understand your explination.

Edited June 1, 2005 by AlGeeEater

[psw]

Well...I see...that's different...anyway, I completely agree with your Einstein quote...nothing is original in the broader picture, now is it

[AlGeeEater]

Well...I see...that's different...anyway, I completely agree with your Einstein quote...nothing is original in the broader picture, now is it

←

Yes glad to see you understand. I'm sorry for not explaining myself a bit better, but I was very suprised to see how much I understood your explination, 'cause i struggled with it in school.

[Mr.Churchyard]

OK….here's C major

C__D__E___F___G___A___B

I thought the notes for a C major were:

C_E_G_C_e

What are those extra chords, or is that just the scale. I can see C_D_E_F_G_A_B_C_D_E_F_G. Every other note or something? Whats the 2 note gap too between G and C?

←

C major SCALE:

C__D__E_F__G__A__B_c

this notes are

C=first scale degree (root)

D=second scale degree

E=third scale blablabla

to build a major triad (three.note.chord), you take the root, the third, the fifth of that same scale - note that this is one way of seeing this.

now that C E G are the notes of the c major triad, you are asking why there is a "two note gap"? Because the basic major triad is root, third and fifth. If it was for example a seventh chord, there would be also the seventh, so there wouldn't be that big gap... Is this what you asked? I hope I could explain it (hope didn't make any language-based mistakes either).

This becomes especially interesting when you take unusual scales and harmonize them.

[psw]

Hmmm...I'm not sure where the problem is....

The Secret Life of Pentatonics: Part 5

Conventional Chord theory applied to the Scale of Fourths

Now…I'm not sure how many of you know about conventional chord theory…so this will be a quick and dirty explanation:

OK….here's C major

C__D__E___F___G___A___B

Now if you take every second note for three notes you get the C major Triad:

C__D__E___F___G___A___B

Now above the triads you get extensions to the chord:

C__D__E___F___G___A___B

R---9---3----11-----5-----6------7

Alright….forget that for now!!!!

EDIT discussion of Scale of Fourths and the Magic Chord

Hopefully you'll be able to hear this as an extension of the same chord just as the 7th is an extension of the same chord:

OK…just in case you don’t get it:

__C__Cmaj7

---0------0----

---1------0----

---0------0----

---2------2----

---3------3----

---x------x----

Still C, just a different type….If you were to add all the extensions it might get less and less C like…OK.

Also…you run out of strings so we can't include all the notes and will have to sacrifice some or it won't fit on the guitar!

←

When I stated C major and wrote out the C major scale I was refering to C major the scale.

Then I stated that the Triad...the basic C major chord...contained every second note for three notes...and then highlighted (bold)...C E G.

Then I added the 7th...B which is the next second note (ie skip one).

Eventually if you take one skip the next you'll have every note of the scale and so every extension (ie unmodified extension) of the major triad.

Anyway...I did warn that this was a quick and dirty explanation of conventional chord theory....I followed it by saying...forget that!...

The intention of bringing in the idea of extensions (7ths,9ths,11ths,13ths) was to help people come to grips with the concept that eventually, if you see the pentatonic scale as a stack of fourths...not a 7 note scale with a couple of notes missing...you will find that the extensions of the magic chord...and so in effect the pentatonic scale...are in fact every note of the chromatic scale.

To put it another way...Conventional theory relates back to it's parent scale (C major in my example)...but in Quartal Harmony (which is different) my analysis shows the parent scale to be the chromatic scale (all 12 notes).

The significance of this is that the extensions of the magic chord therefore include all notes. As the magic chord can also be analysed as the pentatonic scale, the result is that you can hear any pentatonic group of notes (ie any pentatonic scale) as relating to a key centre.

Now on Mr Churchyards point...you get really interesting material by applying chord theory to different scales.

My point in Combining pentatonics was that you could get a similar result by combining different pentatonic scales.

Let's look at it this way....

Guitar players brought up on minor pentatonics (like me), will often think of playing A minor pentatonic over a C major progression.

I showed that if you combine the notes of D minor and E minor (not A minor as we're often thinking) once you take out the duplicates you get all the notes of the C major scale.

That means, that we could make/play melodies/solos using D minor and E minor (or A minor or indeed C major) Pentatonic. But not just in combination...separately. This could result in quite different note choices and licks than the traditional way of looking at it while still leting you work out of your blues boxes.

Now if you take two different pentatonics....say E minor and G minor, in E...you generate some interesting scales:

E G A B D

G Bb C D F

= E...F...G...A...Bb...B...C...D

= r..b2..m3..4..b5....5...b9..7

Now, this scale has no name! What it has is that kind of gipsy phrigian flavour of the b2 and b9 and a neat little chromatic move between the 4th and 5th degrees (ver bluesy). Also it's an 8 note scale that, like the bebop scale in jazz, fits neatly into 8th note groupings.

Anyway...hope this helps with the ideas and the potential

Keep working on it and let me know how it's going

pete