Touch Style Guitar

[Primal]

So the post over in the Player's Corner got me thinking. I am now considering building a touch style guitar as my next project (bah, I just keep changing my mind!), but a few questions have come across my mind.

First, the bridge. I did a search on touch style guitars and in one of the two results, Brian suggested using two hardtail bridges together. The only problem with that would be having the two sets of strings far apart. I guess you could remedy that by grinding the two inside edges of the bridges down so that the saddles meet.

Second, the pickups. I've seen various touch style guitars with different pickup configurations. One, which would probably be the easiest, was 4 single coil pickups aranged like P-bass pickups. My only concern with this would be bass response from the bass strings. Anyone have some insight as to how well strat pickups would work with bass strings? Another alternative would be humbuckers. However, I would need to find humbuckers that would have even response over all the strings. The obvious choice would be EMGs, since their bass pickups are the same as 81s. However, I would prefer to stay away from EMGs, because I haven't been to impressed with the EMGs in my Dean (yes, they are REAL EMGs, not EMG-HZs). Any suggestions?

Third, the strings. Where could one find guitar strings long enough? I know that the Chapman Stick uses a 34" scale, and to my knowledge there aren't any guitar strings that long. If I am going to end up having to order custom strings from anyone, I will drop this project.

I'm sure there are more questions, and eventually I will think of them, but this is all I can come up with now.

[Pr3Va1L]

look. Touch styles are either 6+4 or 7+5.

You just need to make a bass, then make a guitar, then strap em togheter. (not really, but you get the point?)

so you need 2 hardtails... one for bass and one for guitar, then you need pickups for guitar and pickups for bass, that's all.

I've been giving this some tought too lol... Haven't even started my 1st project, and I alredy have so many ideas for my next

[Primal]

look. Touch styles are either 6+4 or 7+5.

You just need to make a bass, then make a guitar, then strap em togheter. (not really, but you get the point?)

so you need 2 hardtails... one for bass and one for guitar, then you need pickups for guitar and pickups for bass, that's all.

I've been giving this some tought too lol... Haven't even started my 1st project, and I alredy have so many ideas for my next

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But having bass pickups and guitar pickups wouldn't provide consistant tone across all of the strings. Thats where the problem lies. I don't want to sound like its a bass and a guitar, I want it to sound like it is one instrument.

I'm also guessing that the bass end is more of a baritone rather than a bass, in the sense that it is tuned higher (maybe starting with the A string?).

[Primal]

*bump*

[WeeTee]

I have no experience on this, but I have given it some thought. Here are some of my ideas.

First, the bridge. I believe the best way would be to use one-string bridgesone-string bridges, like M_A_T_T used on his bass pictorial. They would allow any string configuration with any kind of spacing. Another one would be to have a custom 10-string bridge (or however many strings you want) made, or make one yourself. I believe going with multiple normal guitar/bass bridges would only bring trouble.

The ideal solution for the pickup problem would again be to make your own pickup, but I know that's not everyone's cup of tea. Another option would be, like you said, to combine multiple pickups in a P-bass kind of way. I would probably go with EMGs, but any kind of soapbar would probably do.

Does anyone have any experience on how a bass pickup sounds with guitar strings?

The strings... Warr Guitars (maybe the others too) use locking tuners, which allow using much shorter strings - you only need enough length for the string to reach the tuner, plus maybe an inch to spare...

One thing I have been thinking about are the frets. Would some special kind of frets be needed/advantageous? What kind of fret wire would you use?

[Pr3Va1L]

the biggest ones you can find, i guess... or else you'd need to scallop it or something.

[Primal]

First, the bridge. I believe the best way would be to use one-string bridgesone-string bridges, like M_A_T_T used on his bass pictorial. They would allow any string configuration with any kind of spacing. Another one would be to have a custom 10-string bridge (or however many strings you want) made, or make one yourself. I believe going with multiple normal guitar/bass bridges would only bring trouble.

I had thought about using those bridges, however those would only me usable for the bass strings since the ball end on guitar strings aren't big enough for those bridges. I believe ABM makes monorail guitar bridges, however ABM bridges are EXTREMELY expensive ($20 per).

The ideal solution for the pickup problem would again be to make your own pickup, but I know that's not everyone's cup of tea. Another option would be, like you said, to combine multiple pickups in a P-bass kind of way. I would probably go with EMGs, but any kind of soapbar would probably do.

I thought about that, too. I have some little sewing machine bobbins that would be good for pickups for individual strings:

The strings... Warr Guitars (maybe the others too) use locking tuners, which allow using much shorter strings - you only need enough length for the string to reach the tuner, plus maybe an inch to spare...

I would still think you would need longer strings. You would need at LEAST 40" worth of strings to reach the tuners at the top of the headstock.

One thing I have been thinking about are the frets. Would some special kind of frets be needed/advantageous? What kind of fret wire would you use?

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I might try some stainless steel frets. I don't think you really need that much height on the on the frets.

[Andy]

I've got no idea if this could work.. but could you use Piano wire for the strings, that'd surely be long enough, and if it doesnt have ball ends (which I dont think it does) then you could develop kinda a locking bridge or something.. Like a massive hard tail Floydrose, Or get some ball ends (possibly bass sized for alls trings) and wind the string around and solder it in place like it usually is..

[Primal]

I've got no idea if this could work.. but could you use Piano wire for the strings, that'd surely be long enough, and if it doesnt have ball ends (which I dont think it does) then you could develop kinda a locking bridge or something.. Like a massive hard tail Floydrose, Or get some ball ends (possibly bass sized for alls trings) and wind the string around and solder it in place like it usually is..

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Piano strings (even the high ones) are so thick that it would require MASSIVE tension to tune them up to pitch.

[Powerfibers]

I have had two different touch guitars. The first was a Chapman Grand Stick (12 string model), The second was an ADG 8 string (Made by Warr). I have neither at the moment, so I am sorry to say I cannot be of as much help as if I still did.

I think that before you pursue this further, you should consider how you will be playing the touch guitar. The tunings on these instruments are vastly different. On a Stick the lowest strings are in the middle of the neck. The 8 string Warrs and ADGs are more like extended range basses. low to high. The Stick had stereo jacks, the ADG a mono one. From a guitar players perspective, I liked the ADG set up better. The "inside out" Stick tuning was mind boggling after twenty years of guitar.

The Stick had rods for frets, round stainless drill rod-like pieces of metal that give an excellent feel. The ADG had large bass like frets. Both had a dampener (the soft half of velcro) and a zero fret if I recall. Look on the Warr and Stick websites. I am sure you will learn a lot there.

As for bridges, I think that individual saddles mounted to a piece of aluminum angle would be your best bet. Pickup wise, something like a Bartolini seems to be what the ADG had in it. It sounded good for bass and treble tones. The best pickup would be someting that doesn't require individual poles, but rather has some sort of bar design. (like a Hot Rail if that makes sense). Maybe you can contact Bartolini and see if they make pickups for touchstyle guitar.

You should be able to get strings and gauge recommendations from Stick and from Warr. Good luck,

Bob M.

[Primal]

I think that before you pursue this further, you should consider how you will be playing the touch guitar. The tunings on these instruments are vastly different. On a Stick the lowest strings are in the middle of the neck. The 8 string Warrs and ADGs are more like extended range basses. low to high. The Stick had stereo jacks, the ADG a mono one. From a guitar players perspective, I liked the ADG set up better. The "inside out" Stick tuning was mind boggling after twenty years of guitar.

I'm considerng the Stick tuning, just because its different and it looks intriguing.

The Stick had rods for frets, round stainless drill rod-like pieces of metal that give an excellent feel. The ADG had large bass like frets. Both had a dampener (the soft half of velcro) and a zero fret if I recall. Look on the Warr and Stick websites. I am sure you will learn a lot there.

I read on the sticks site about the frets, but unfortunately I couldn't find any close up pics. I'll probably be using bass size frets.

As for bridges, I think that individual saddles mounted to a piece of aluminum angle would be your best bet.

I'm not to sure how I would go about doing that, but I will definately look into it! Thanks.

Pickup wise, something like a Bartolini seems to be what the ADG had in it. It sounded good for bass and treble tones. The best pickup would be someting that doesn't require individual poles, but rather has some sort of bar design. (like a Hot Rail if that makes sense). Maybe you can contact Bartolini and see if they make pickups for touchstyle guitar.

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I might experiment with my own pickups, then go from there. Given the design of the Chapman Stick, it would be pretty easy to make a "pickup module" to slide right in so I can experiment easily.

[rocksolid]

I don't think you'll have a problem with buying long strings if you just implement a headstock design using those steignberger tuners, you could fit quite a few of them in a tight space if you wanted to.

[WeeTee]

I don't think you'll have a problem with buying long strings if you just implement a headstock design using those steignberger tuners, you could fit quite a few of them in a tight space if you wanted to.

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Making it headless would have the additional advantage of making the instrument body-heavy, since it's usually held more vertical than horizontal. If there was a normal headstock with 10 or 12 tuners, it would be hard to not make it neck-heavy - especially if the design was Stick-like (almost no body).

[PaulSimonon]

You can use piccalo bass strings...

Also, you could consider using the NOVAK system and use regular guit strings.

As for pickups, who couldn't you use seperate pickups for the bass and treble sides? I've seen it done on some 9 string basses.

[Primal]

As for pickups, who couldn't you use seperate pickups for the bass and treble sides? I've seen it done on some 9 string basses.

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Yes, I could. But as I said before I would be concerned with the frequency response of guitar pickups with bass strings, or bass pickups with guitar strings (minus, of course, EMG pickups). I could go with guitar and bass pickups, but I want a consistant sound over all the strings, if that makes any sense.

[PaulSimonon]

Well, if you've got seperate preamp sections for treble and bass sides, I'm pretty sure that you'd find a suitably consistant tone.

[WeeTee]

Well, if you've got seperate preamp sections for treble and bass sides, I'm pretty sure that you'd find a suitably consistant tone.

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But only after some adjusting. To me it would seem easier to have consistent tone as the starting point, and have separate preamp sections for making the tones different when necessary. That would be much easier with identical pickups and electronics.

Regarding the pickups themselves, to me it would seem easier to use off-the-shelf pickups that have blade magnets, instead of having to wind your own using separate bobbins, as Primal suggested. Unless of course you like winding pickups...

[Primal]

Regarding the pickups themselves, to me it would seem easier to use off-the-shelf pickups that have blade magnets, instead of having to wind your own using separate bobbins, as Primal suggested. Unless of course you like winding pickups...

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I have been wanting to try winding my own pickups. I also saw a guy on the MIMF who had individual pickups for each string with trim pots in the EQ to adjust the level of each pickup to perfection. I thought that was rather neat.

[PaulSimonon]

But only after some adjusting. To me it would seem easier to have consistent tone as the starting point, and have separate preamp sections for making the tones different when necessary. That would be much easier with identical pickups and electronics.

Of course you'd have to adjust it, that's the point! How hard is it to turn a few knobs? It'll prove to be a lot harder to find pickups with good response to a low F# and the highest string, assuming he's stringing it from the F#.

[cbowen]

Hope someone is still watching this thread. I'm fascinated by the Stick as well and view it as a really interesting project. I've got some questions that maybe a few people can answer.

The biggest problem I see right now is the bridge. I think I can create the adjustable nuts and the string damper okay, but building a fully adjustable bridge doesn't seem feasable right now. The string spacing is 0.300" on a Grand Stick, which is pretty small. I saw a reference to single-string bridges, but the link was broken. Any suggestions on where I might find something that could work? I'm interested in building a variation on the Grand Stick.

The neck on a Grand Stick is 3 5/8" wide. I'm wondering if twisting is ever a problem on necks this wide? Chapman uses a single truss rod in the back of the instrument for compression or extension. I'm thinking of using one of the premade truss rods for bass guitar that's the same length, but was wondering if I should use just one like Chapman does (who may be able to get really select wood) or if two would make the setup better since I would cancel any tendency to twist or is this likely to be a problem? I'm thinking of using Padauk for the neck with no additional fretboard material.

Someone mentioned here that Chapman laminates multiple layers of wood for the neck. I can't see that in the pictures. Would a solid piece of 8/4 Padauk be just as good? The neck is 7/8" thick, with 1 3/4" thick section near the pickup.

Any suggestions from those with vastly more experience than I? (which is most everyone).

Charles

[Pr3Va1L]

well... for thee pickups... the stick uses 2 EMGs... One for bass and one for guitar (the same you can get for bass and for your guitar, as far as I know) and I guess it sounds alright...