Distance

[bugman96]

Another newbie question: how critical is the distance from the end of the fretboard/neck pocket to the bridge?

Thanks.

[unclej]

it's very critical. it effects your scale length which effects the intonation of the guitar. but the real measurement is from the nut to the saddles on the bridge. measure acurately from the breakpoint of the nut to the TWELTH fret. twice that distance is where your saddles should be.

what kind of bridge are you using and while i'm thinking about it what made you ask the question in the first place?

Edited July 29, 2005 by rhoads56

[Devon Headen]

I makes no difference at all as long as your bridge is the correct distance from the nut (scale length).

[Mr Alex]

measure acurately from the breakpoint of the nut to the fourteenth fret

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dont you mean 12th fret?

Edited July 29, 2005 by Mr Alex

[bugman96]

it's very critical.  it effects your scale length which effects the intonation of the guitar.  but the real measurement is from the nut to the saddles on the bridge.  measure acurately from the breakpoint of the nut to the fourteenth fret.  twice that distance is where your saddles should be.

what kind of bridge are you using and while i'm thinking about it what made you ask the question in the first place?

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I asked because I didn't know and I'm currently absorbing info on how to build a guitar so that I can hopefully make one in the near future. Not sure what kind of bridge I'm going to use yet though I'm leaning toward something like a tele bridge.

I'll ask this here too so I don't clog up space with another stupid post: I know I can get wood for a solid from an online retailer but where can I go in the real world without placing a special order? I've been checking out local places and no one has anything usable. <-----never mind...I just found out exoticwoods.com is 15-20 minute drive away.

Edited July 29, 2005 by bugman96

[Scrappy_Squirrel]

...measure acurately from the breakpoint of the nut to the fourteenth fret.

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What do you mean by "breakpoint"? Is it the top of the nut where it meets the headstock, the bottom of the nut where the nut meets the fretboard or the point where the strings touch the nut?

[thegarehanman]

breakpoint: Where the strings meet the nut closest to the fretboard

[Scrappy_Squirrel]

breakpoint: Where the strings meet the nut closest to the fretboard

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To be sure I'm understanding this correctly:

Does this mean that the breakpoint will vary from string to string if one were using a compensated nut like the earvana? If so, I imagine the scale length in this instance would be the AVERAGE string distance from the "breakpoint" to the twelfth fret... it is the twelfth fret and not the fourteenth, correct?

[thegarehanman]

The breakpoint is always the same thing, but yes, it would be at a different place on a compensated nut. The scale length would NOT be an average. This is because all of the frets are still positioned using the set scale length of the neck. Say(for instance) you have a 24.75" true scale length. This would be considered a 24.811 compensated scale length(for TOM positioning purposes). The nut could potentially be compensated also. However, the frets are still positioned based on 24.75" scale. And it's the twelfth fret that is half the distance of the scale length.

[Scrappy_Squirrel]

The breakpoint is always the same thing, but yes, it would be at a different place on a compensated nut. The scale length would NOT be an average. This is because all of the frets are still positioned using the set scale length of the neck. Say(for instance) you have a 24.75" true scale length. This would be considered a 24.811 compensated scale length(for TOM positioning purposes). The nut could potentially be compensated also. However, the frets are still positioned based on 24.75" scale. And it's the twelfth fret that is half the distance of the scale length.

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What is being "compensated" for in the bridge positioning? Also, does the additional compensation still apply to other scale lengths and is there a formula for working out the additional "compensation"? For instance: On a Fender, the true scale length is 25.5. Would the compensated distance of the bridge be 26.011?

[unclej]

first let me apologize for the misinformation on the "14th" fret. don't know what i was thinkin..and whiskey had nothing to do with it.

second, when i read the question i assumed that you were replacing the neck on an existing guitar with the bridge already in place in which my answer would be closer to correct. i certainly didn't mean to confuse the issue and thanks to everyone that corrected my mistake.

[thegarehanman]

Compensation is neccessary because of string guage. Thicker strings require more compensation. You really only have to worry about compensation when you're installing a TOM bridge because you don't have that much play with the saddles. Hardtail bridges and the like also require compensation, but more often than not, the saddles have enough play where you don't have to worry about(1/16" of) compensation when installing it. I always just use stewmac's calculator to figure out compensation. Most guitar scale lenghts won't need compensation of more than about .1" though.

[Scrappy_Squirrel]

Compensation is neccessary because of string guage. Thicker strings require more compensation. You really only have to worry about compensation when you're installing a TOM bridge because you don't have that much play with the saddles. Hardtail bridges and the like also require compensation, but more often than not, the saddles have enough play where you don't have to worry about(1/16" of) compensation when installing it. I always just use stewmac's calculator to figure out compensation. Most guitar scale lenghts won't need compensation of more than about .1" though.

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Thanks for the explaination. Sometimes the details can be a bit confusing when it comes to all of these measurements for a new build.

Although, I have one more question regarding neck construction, attachment etc. hopefully the original posters question was answered because I've outright hijacked this thread, unintentionally of course. It would be nice to have a lot of this neck related stuff in one thread anyway. Bugman96, If I'm being a dick just tell me and I'll butt out.

Anyway, is there a hard and fast rule for how high the fretboard should stand above the top of the guitar after the neck is attached?

[thegarehanman]

Not at all, that's all dependent upon what bridge your're using and wether or not you have a neck angle. Only the fretboard will be proud of the body if you have a neck angle whereas some of the neck(and fretboard) will lie above the top of the body if you have no neck angle but need the clearance.

[Scrappy_Squirrel]

Not at all, that's all dependent upon what bridge your're using and wether or not you have a neck angle. Only the fretboard will be proud of the body if you have a neck angle whereas some of the neck(and fretboard) will lie above the top of the body if you have no neck angle but need the clearance.

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I see...so, in effect the neck angle, or lack thereof, and fretboard height above the body, are all dependant on which bridge will be used in the build, hmmm...

1. TOM style bridge = Neck angle + fretboard just above body.

2. Fender style = No neck angle + fretboard and a little neck above body top.

All depending on more exact measurements determined by the exact bridge used and body top shape.

In your experience, is there a neck angle/fretboard height measurement one could use that would be nearly universal for the retrofit of most any bridge on the market? I'm guessing not.

[thegarehanman]

I don't want to give an average angle. I wouldn't want to be held responsable for any damage it might do. You shouldn't see many guitars with more than a 5 degree angle though. It would take maybe half an hour to draw out your bridge, nut, and what not to determine what angle you want. You can have no neck angle and use a TOM bridge or have an angle and use a Fender bridge. The bridge does not determine the method of construction. The thing is, if you use a TOM bridge with no neck angle, you'd probably have to recess the bridge to avoid having the neck sit too proud(in a purely asthetic sense) of the body. And if you used a neck angle with a hardtail(fender) bridge, it would be a very shallow angle. I wonder why no one else has been replying to this? Does no one know this stuff, or am I just doing too good a job of explaining it? Or...does no one care?hmmm

[Scrappy_Squirrel]

I don't want to give an average angle. I wouldn't want to be held responsable for any damage it might do. You shouldn't see many guitars with more than a 5 degree angle though. It would take maybe half an hour to draw out your bridge, nut, and what not to determine what angle you want. You can have no neck angle and use a TOM bridge or have an angle and use a Fender bridge. The bridge does not determine the method of construction. The thing is, if you use a TOM bridge with no neck angle, you'd probably have to recess the bridge to avoid having the neck sit too proud(in a purely asthetic sense) of the body. And if you used a neck angle with a hardtail(fender) bridge, it would be a very shallow angle. I wonder why no one else has been replying to this? Does no one know this stuff, or am I just doing too good a job of explaining it? Or...does no one care?hmmm

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You are doing a good job of explaining it all...maybe there aren't many people on the board today. Perhaps noone else cares... Regardless, thanks for all your help thegarehanman!

What is the smallest angle a TOM can accommodate without recessing and without the neck being garishly high above the body?

Edited July 29, 2005 by Scrappy_Squirrel

[thegarehanman]

I honestly couldn't tell you, but I'm guessing you could get away with a pretty shallow angle(maybe 1 degree). Realistically, TOM bridges can be adjust pretty low(not as low as a hardtail, but pretty low none the less). It's good to figure your angle out w/ your TOM bridge's posts a little less than halfway unscrewed. This gives you room to lower or raise the action when the whole guitar is actually built.

[Scrappy_Squirrel]

I honestly couldn't tell you, but I'm guessing you could get away with a pretty shallow angle(maybe 1 degree). Realistically, TOM bridges can be adjust pretty low(not as low as a hardtail, but pretty low none the less). It's good to figure your angle out w/ your TOM bridge's posts a little less than halfway unscrewed. This gives you room to lower or raise the action when the whole guitar is actually built.

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That makes sense.

[Mattia]

I honestly couldn't tell you, but I'm guessing you could get away with a pretty shallow angle(maybe 1 degree). Realistically, TOM bridges can be adjust pretty low(not as low as a hardtail, but pretty low none the less). It's good to figure your angle out w/ your TOM bridge's posts a little less than halfway unscrewed. This gives you room to lower or raise the action when the whole guitar is actually built.

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That makes sense.

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FWIW, my TOM/Stoptailpiece guitars (ditto Les Pauls, I believe) have roughly a 2 to 3 degree angle. This said, I recalculate the angle with each guitar I build, just to be sure. Mostly because I've yet to build two identical guitars, otherwise I'd just lock it down and jig up for it ;-)

[rhoads56]

What is the smallest angle a TOM can accommodate without recessing and without the neck being garishly high above the body?

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Stop asking for the answers to be handed to you, and do the REQUIRED WORK, which is drawing up a plan AFTER you have obtained the hardware you need.