Progress Stopped

[verhoevenc]

So yeah... finally got into the woodshop at my university after much toil and trouble drawing out SEVERAL plans to prove compitency, etc. and that I wasn't just messing around in there. So yeah, I get into the shop... they don't have the MAIN tool I was planning to use. No router table... no bearing bits... they claim no bits to go 1 9/16" deep (the depth of the hollow of my body) even with multiple passes! Oh yeah, and no dremel, nothing like it. So yeah... back to square one: finding somewhere to build. I guess I'll just end up buying a router (Bosch from amazon) and a Grizzly H3114 table for it, plus a stewmac dremel and then all the router bits and do-hickeys so that I can actually build this thing. Cause I mean it's not like I can turn back now, I've got all the wood, bridge, nut, etc. It's crazy though, for the router, table, dremel, bits, and other pieces I need to make this guitar happen I'm adding another $700 on top of the wood I already bought, and the baby grand bridge (which is REALLY expensive too).

So yeah, templates will be built at school... everything else will be done at home outside in my yard (house isn't big enough for a shop room... and since it's a bad neighbourhood I'll have to bring the stuff in and out of the house every time i use it ) with my dremel and router.

Wish me luck Boys,

Chris

Edited September 12, 2005 by verhoevenc

[Mattia]

Do they not even have a router, though?

Because honestly, Router Tables? Anything but essential here. Drill press will clean out most of the bulk, the router merely make things look neat. If you're doing inlay, though, you will need and want the dremel.

However, all inclusive, it really shouldn't cost 700 bucks. 100-140 dollars for a router (Porter Cable 690, or equivalent Bosch, plunge and fixed bases), 80-100 for a dremel, 50 for the StewMac base, maybe (tops) another 100 on bits, both Dremel and Router. You can make your own router table, and you're done for just over half your quoted figure, if that.

[Mickguard]

Hey man, don't be such a dilettante ...a router table? pfft? Bosch? double-pfft...

Look, I wasn't so sure how far into this I'd go, so I wasn't willing to lay out 150 euros for a router...I ended up buying one for 20 euros!

I've been using it for six months now, and it's still kicking...sure, it's not some super piece of hardware, but it gets the job done. Depth is still an issue, sure--I can only go about 3.5 cm deep. Safely.

It's not like you're planning on building 50 guitars, right?

Most valuable piece of hardware I bought: pump action clamps. They were on sale: 4 cheapos for 5 euros. I'd also bought a longer 'good quality' pump action clamp before that (useful for glueups), but I end up using the cheapos most often.

Another valuable tool: double sided tape.

Another one: a couple of Stanley surforms. I also use a rasp quite often.

The only other tools I use consistently are a jigsaw and a drill--but you should have those anyway. After my fancy-pants Bosch drill died, I went out and bought two cheapos for $20--for the pair!

Anyway, all of these tools (with the exception of a router perhaps) are useful and even necessary in other areas of your life--and easy enough to borrow anyway, if you want.

With this set of tools, I haven't found myself saying too often 'gee, I wish I hadda...'

[verhoevenc]

This was my quota:

Router: $209.99

Bits: Set $48.40

Template: $5.55

Table: $62.95

Dremel: $104.39

Dremel Base: $50.95

Dremel Edger: $28.25

Binding Bits: $18.89

Inlay Bits: $16.95 + $15.95

Graphtech 1 13/16 Nut: $4.92

Frets: $3.11 x3

Inlay: $39.96

Fretboard: $18.36

Trussrod 18": $15.09

Binding: $4.90

Scrapers: $5.98

Digital Calipers: $50.98

Routerbits.com Bit 3021: $27.20

Total: 738.99

[Devon Headen]

You don't need a router table. The -only- things I used a router for on my last build were the pickup cavities and neck pocket. Obviously you can use it for a lot of other things, but I don't use it more than I need to. I honestly don't see how I ever got by without a good bandsaw, though. I think with a drill press and bandsaw + some hand tools, you can do 90% of the roughing process (which ends just before binding, inlaying, and finishing for me).

You shouldn't be paying that much for a dremel. I got mine with the flex shaft and a ton of bits for like $70. I think it's the same as one of the ones StewMac sells, but I don't wanna look up their price. Also, digital calipers aren't a neccessity. I actually prefer my regular dial calipers to those. Much less to go wrong, and I don't have to worry about batteries.

[Mattia]

This was my quota:

Router: $209.99

Bits: Set $48.40

Template: $5.55

Table: $62.95

Dremel: $104.39

Dremel Base: $50.95

Dremel Edger: $28.25

Binding Bits: $18.89

Inlay Bits: $16.95 + $15.95

Graphtech 1 13/16 Nut: $4.92

Frets: $3.11 x3

Inlay: $39.96

Fretboard: $18.36

Trussrod 18": $15.09

Binding: $4.90

Scrapers: $5.98

Digital Calipers: $50.98

Routerbits.com Bit 3021: $27.20

Total: 738.99

←

Routers like the Bosch 1617 and the Porter Cable 690 can be had for around 100 bucks if you only choose the one base (I'd vote for fixed, but to each his own). Amazon.com sells 'em. As said already, you don't need the table. I'd reccomend using the router for binding, not the dremel, particularly if it's a flat top, and making your own following jig can be done if you're on a budget. Inlay bits: annoy your dentist for used dental burrs. More than sharp enough for what you need them for, and probably free.

Inlay material: you getting a whole ounce of Paua or something? Also, what the heck do you want a digital caliper for? For an electric? I have a cheap dial caliper, analog, for about 10 bucks, built a stand for it, and I never use it for my electrics. My acoustics, yes, for plate and side graduation.

[jay5]

I just got a craftsman dremel on ebay for $25 Shipped. I built my router table for about $30. The Bosch 1617 (very good way to spend the $$) can be found on amazon.com, reconditioned and w/ both bases for $140. Dont buy a bit set, just buy the bits you need. Buy good ones (I prefer whiteside bits from routerbits.com). You dont need $50 digital calipers either. I have a pair of cheap calipers that work perfectly well for what I need. You can also build a dremel base for much less than $50. The question here is whether or not you value the time spent building these things and looking for deals more than the extra $$$ you will spend just buying everything?

[verhoevenc]

Yeah, I ended up getting hte reconditioned router, got the dremel from the factory direct site, and got a MUCH better base for it than stewmac from the factory site too for $24! Sorry all you guys that don't think I need a router, i SURELY do, I've decided after building my last guitar with table saws and band saws and all that stuff that I'm going the router+template way now.

Here's what I got in the end, after losing some stuff... adding some stuff... finding better prices:

Stewmac.com

Inlay Bits: $9.71

Template: $5.55

Binding Bits: $14.98

Graphtech 1 13/16 Nut: $6.53

Frets: $18.36

Fretboard: $18.36

Trussrod 18": $15.09

Binding: $4.75

Scrapers: $5.98

Purfling: $4.75

Total: $115.31

www.maui.net:

Sample Pack: $10

Dremeltools.com-

Dremel: $69.95

Dremel Base: $24.79

Collet Set: $5.70 (so I could get free shipping, cause if not shipping would have been more than $5.70)

Total: $100.44

Amazon-

Router: $139.15

Table: $62.95

Digital Calipers: $26.99

Small Plane: $7.95

Clamps: $49.94

Total: $321.99

Router Bits.com-

Bit 3021: $27.20

Total: $32.19

Total: $579.93

And that's WITH shipping, the other quotes weren't. So I think getting MORE for about $200 under my previous quota isn't half bad

Chris

[jnewman]

People weren't telling you you didn't need a router - they were telling you you didn't need a bosch router or a router table. I agree with at least the table part.

Also... with all that expensive equipment, why on God's green earth did you buy a $7.95 plane? I tried to go the easy way out and bought a $35 plane and it was pretty much unusable. I went ahead and coughed up the money for a Lie-Nielsen #4 ($225) and it's worth every penny, although I was using a borrowed $80 plane that worked just fine after a good bit of tuneup.

[tirapop]

All you really need is a sharpened spoon, a broken hacksaw blade, and a handful of sand... you're all a bunch of spoiled momma's boys.

[verhoevenc]

Hahahaha, no I didn't get an expensive plane because I've never used one yet, I got that one to try it out,s ee what I do and don't like about it, and hten go up from there. And plus, I don't plan to use it that much on this guitar anyways. My spruce top is on 3/16" thick, so the most carving I'm gunna be doing is a mere 1/16".

Chris

[jnewman]

Oh... you're talking about a little spoon-plane or "instrument-maker's" plane, not a block/bench plane... got it . That's a little different, just make sure you work on getting the blade razor sharp. Really. You want to be able to take all the hairs off a patch of your arm with it or it's not sharp enough.

[Mattia]

Heh. I'm not sure I'd agree that the Dremel router base is better than StewMac's; the better dremel base is the Cochran, which would cost you more than your router did, but a fixed base model, for a dremel, is ideal. It'll do the trick, though.

Re: planes, it's all about the setup, and having at least decent blades. I've got UK made stanleys, that run around 40 bucks or so, and they're perfectly OK planes for the cash. They need a bit of tuning, probably lapping the sole flat, de-burring the mouth, and a good bit of blade sharpening. Like any edge tool, it's all about sharpening that edge. Lie Nielsens, maybe Lee Valley's Veritas planes seem to be the only ones that you can actually use straight out of the box.

[verhoevenc]

Yeah, I'll agree that a fixed base is better than a plunge base for a dremel (ie: stewmac over the dremel one I bought).

HOWEVER if you read up on the dremel one I got, it may be a plunge base, HOWEVER you can lock it in two different plundge depths. SO I can just plunge down and lock it before I even start cutting, and tada, fixed base.

Chris

[Mattia]

Yeah, I'll agree that a fixed base is better than a plunge base for a dremel (ie: stewmac over the dremel one I bought).

HOWEVER if you read up on the dremel one I got, it may be a plunge base, HOWEVER you can lock it in two different plundge depths. SO I can just plunge down and lock it before I even start cutting, and tada, fixed base.

Chris

←

Well, yeah. All plunge bases lock down ;-)

[jnewman]

Re: planes, it's all about the setup, and having at least decent blades. I've got UK made stanleys, that run around 40 bucks or so, and they're perfectly OK planes for the cash. They need a bit of tuning, probably lapping the sole flat, de-burring the mouth, and a good bit of blade sharpening. Like any edge tool, it's all about sharpening that edge. Lie Nielsens, maybe Lee Valley's Veritas planes seem to be the only ones that you can actually use straight out of the box.

←

I agree about the setup business, but that's not all there is, either - no amount of setup and tuning could fix the $35 plane I bought, as its adjustments had a huge amount of slack, were impossible to set accurately, and wandered over time. Basically it was just a piece of junk. UK stanleys are a lot better hardware; I thought they ran more than that?

[Mattia]

I agree about the setup business, but that's not all there is, either - no amount of setup and tuning could fix the $35 plane I bought, as its adjustments had a huge amount of slack, were impossible to set accurately, and wandered over time. Basically it was just a piece of junk. UK stanleys are a lot better hardware; I thought they ran more than that?

←

Yeah, true. It's gotta be at least decent to begin with. I'm in Europe, so my guess is UK Stanleys can be had for a touch cheaper over here. Might've been 45 or so, but I don't think more than that. Then again, maybe it was on sale.

There are quite a few nice old Stanleys (US made) going on eBay quite regularly. Worth keeping an eye out for. A friend of mine (who knows more about old planes than I do, and has a small collection of vintage Bedrock planes) got me a circa 1918 Stanley Bailey #5 in good condition from a local antique place (local to him), needs a small amount of cleaning but not much, blade's short but still OK, Brazilian Rosewood handles, for a mere 40 bucks. I'll probably get a Hock blade for it at some point, but that's a lot of plane for your cash. He sent me a big long list of things to look out for with auction planes, which I can reprint if anyone's interested.

[jay5]

Please do, I am always finding old planes at the flea market but Im leary of buying them cause' I have no idea what im really looking at and if Im getting a deal or getting screwed.

[Mattia]

Here goes! Thanks to Matt H for this:

There are those who say that the Bailey design was the best that

Stanley ever made.  As a Bed Rock user, I disagree, but I do agree

that the Bailey type 2 is the most successful of all of the designs

that Stanley invented.  Note that I said "type 2" Bailey.  The type 2

is very similar in design to the #4 you've got, probably - all the

essential elements are there.

- lever cap with elongated screwhole (though the kidney shaped holes are cool)

- back & forth adjustment

- screw-adjust forwards and backwards adjusting of the frog, with

blade and lever cap removed - uses an H-shaped metal piece, one side

of which bolts to the frog, the other side of which fits over the

adjuster screw.

- under-blade lateral adjustment

Those are the essential features to look for.  Note that on a LOT of

Baileys being sold, the back-and-forth adjustment is missing at least

one piece - the adjusting screw, h-shaped piece, or the screw

fastening that piece to the frog.  Be careful of this, as planes

missing these pieces sometimes have stripped-out screw holes.

Be careful of Ebay for tools.  If you don't see disassembled pictures

of the plane, you might want to ask for them w/r/t the varous concerns

outlined below -

Other things to watch for:

- squareness of the bottoms relative to the sides of the plane (e.g.,

perpendicularity).  As I'm certain that you know, the soles of planes

need to be lapped flat.  One of the unfortunate consequences of

lapping done by not-terribly-experienced people is crookedness. I have

a wonderful #5 that was lapped crookedly when I got it.  There wasn't

a lot of sole left on it to get it correct while retaining structural

integrity.  I decided to have it flattened by a machine shop as they

could do it far more precisely than I could - it turned out to be a

very good deal overall, as I paid perhaps $30 for the plane and $20

for the machining.

- on the long planes (the #6 (fore) plane and the #7 (try) planes),

watch for cracks in the casting, especially on older ones.  On later

type 1s and all type 2s, there will be two long ribs cast into the

rear of the plane. Check carefully along these for stress cracks,

especially just aft of the rear handle.  If a #7, in particular, gets

dropped and hits the floor at the back end, cracks can develop easily.

They look very minor but allow significant flex and may require

welding (which is do-able but costly - the plane will need to be

completely leveled subsequent to such repair).

- watch out for welds.  Welded planes are usually strong.  They're NOT

usually straight.  If you get a plane with a weld, check it VERY

carefully for straightness.  If the bottom is a bit out, that can be

lapped.  If, on the other hand, the sides are out of alignment front

to back, select another plane, as you'll never get that one to cut

straight, even if a machine shop mills the bottom and sides square.

- don't worry about broken handles.  Broken handles can be replaced

easily.  However, DO watch out for stripped threads in the handle

attaching areas, especiallly on the bolt holding the rear handle on.

Broken handles can lead those screws to get stripped.

- look at the mouth.  In America, a lot of these planes have been

modified to slightly widen the mouth.  That's not a horrible thing if

it's done correctly.  The problem (yep) is that mostly it's NOT done

correctly.  The outside edge of the mouth (the bottom of the plane)

should be quite flat and even along its length, and should be

perpendicular to the sides.  If it's not, it will need to be squared

up if you're ever to take fine cuts when planing.  This is where

having a good frog adjuster comes into play - you may need to be able

to move the frog ALL the way forward if the forward edge of the mouth

has been filed or squared.

- look for evidence of the frog/mouth junction having been flattened.

Most Baileys require at least some time with a file to get the bed

straight and flat, and if someone's done it already, check their work

- they may have done it for you!  And, as with other things, they may

have done it less than perfectly.

- Check the leading edge of the cap iron  It should have a pronounced

bend and be free from excessive pitting.  The cap iron must be sprung

against the blade; if the leading edge is pitted, replace it, as

you'll never get a straight, square, uninterrupted edge, which in

essence means that shavings will get trapped beneath it at every turn.

Blech. Yuck.  Gack. Not Good.  You know?

- check that the cam on the lever cap hasn't worn.  The steel in the

lever cap is not as hard as the steel in blades, and on very old

planes the cam can wear to the extent where the cap doesn't lock as

hard as it should.  These can be replaced but they are often a sign of

a plane that's just wearing out....I've only seen this on two of the

several hundred planes I've seen but it was obvious that someone had

overtightened the lever cap screw and locked the lever cap with a

hammer or something.....repeatedly.

- an obvious concern is rust pitting.  It is certainly possible to fix

a great deal of rust pitting; a bit of rust remover and some effort,

and some subsequent careful lapping, can do a world of help.  The

caveat is the depth and degree of the pitting.  If it's terribly deep,

you're SOL - you won't be able to remove enough steel to remove the

roughness without compromising the structural integrity of the tool.

So a little rust is OK, a lot of rust might be OK, but ONLY if the

pits aren't hugely deep (like 2mm or more).

A very good site to check out w/r/t planes is the following:

http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html    The site offers a

tremendous amount of information (along with plenty of opinions, but

he's a tool guy, so it comes with the territory).

I would urge you to look out for Bed Rocks as well - if you can find

one in reasonable condition, you'll be pleasantly surprised at the

performance.

[...]

Last, you might want to read Garrett Hack's "The Handplane Book" by

Taunton Press.  It's a tour de force, really - one of the better tool

books I've ever read.