Meet the Twins

[Mickguard]

Some quick progress pics:

Damn them fertility drugs:

Family progress portrait:

[Mickguard]

Figure it's time to start a thread for this, now that I'm making progress (and especially since Swedish Luthier posted his excellent mutant longhorn in this month's GOTM)

The longhorn has always been my absolute favorite guitar design. But I've never wanted the Dano version...go figure. I originally wanted to make my own guitar version --but then the pickups on my old Univox Hi-flyer bass died. So instead of rerouting its (plywood) body for the set of Fender pickups I have here, I decided that the guitar needed a sister...The Hi-flyer was my very first guitar--I've always loved the neck on this one. Used to have a 4001, but I preferred the Hi-flyer. And when I stopped playing bass and switched to singing, I taught my buddy how to play bass on the Univox.

I actually started the body a year ago, but I didn't know how to use Autocad then, so my plan wasn't accurate enough and I didn't have the proper tools. Luckily, the original plan I worked from was larger than the final design, it was easy to get into shape. The body's alder, bought the block off a guy on ebay.de--it was supposed to be two pieces, he sent a 5-piece...another great ebay experience . No matter, this one is going to be painted (I'm hoping Swedish Luthier will give me tips on the finish). It's extremely lightweight.

I decided to build the bass first, since I don't perform with a bass. That way I can tweak the design for the guitar build.

Took me a long time to get the pickups routed:

I used my laser sight to position the neck pocket and bridge. Because the Hi-flyer's neck and bridge are very narrow, I had to angle the Precision pickups to get the poles to line up more or less with the strings. It won't be perfect, but it'll be close enough. I have a Jazz pickup to match, but I decided to stay with a one-pickup design.

You'll notice that the original design of the heel had an extension going up the bass side. Well, the router tore that off right quick!

Here's a closer shot of the heel after some sanding/reshaping (It looks better this way anyway). The neck joint is very snug:

I didn't feel like buying a new set of screws --the Univox body is much thinner than this one. So I decided to recess the back plate. I like the look:

In fact, I liked the look of that so much, I decided to change the design of the six-string guitar. More on that later.

I still haven't sanded the body yet --lots of tape residue to clean up. I'm planning on building my own robo-sander type jig to help me clean up the side of the body, which is still quite bumpy. Then I still need to decide whether to carve the back. I'm thinking at least the belly carve, maybe one for the leg too. And possibly a forearm carve on front. And I'll have to clean up the neck too --we went to town on the guitar with spray paint, etc. Not to mention throwing it across the stage during our shows... This is one tough neck.... although I had to replace a tuner...I managed to clean up a lot of it though...

In the meantime, I still have design decisions to make for the guitar.

This time out....(drum roll)... I'm building the neck too!

I originally planned to make a set neck...but I'm thinking for a first neck, I should probably stick with a bolt on. In that case, I'll use inserts instead of a neck plate, and I'll extend the neck onto the body -- I'm using a preslotted ebony fretboard from LMI--it has an extra 7 cm or so after the last fret slot. So I'll be able to use the fretboard to hide the routing, instead of having to rely on a pickguard for that. I'm tempted to add frets--but it might be fun to leave the extension fretless...could provide some weird sounds...

My first design is the one on the right--the body slopes up to form the neck joint. But after routing for the neck plate on the bass, I had the idea to flatten the top of the body --if I go with a bolt-on, then I'll still leave a shelf for part of the heel (and probably end up with 5 or 6 bolts). If I go for a setneck, then I'll do it PRS-style. (I'm also playing around with different headstock designs --I might go with a modified Dano cokebottle--I want the strings to remain completely straight).

For wood, I'm using the same plank as my Rocket...I don't know what kind of wood it is, it resembles photos I've seen of Ipe, it has a similar grain to mahogany, it's pretty dense stuff too.

So the body will be a one-piece plank. It's only 35 mm thick though--so I might still cap it with maple. It's a hard one to choose, because I know that the ipe will look excellent with a cherry red stain. The neck will be the same wood. I'm going to try out two--one will be a one-piece, the other will be two-pieces.

The headstock will be a drop-down 3x3 --an angled headstock just wouldn't look right with the horns. For the same reason, I probably won't angle the neck, but instead I'll recess the bridge a little and leave the neck a bit proud of the surface. Frets will be jumbos. For the headstock, I plan on working with an idea I've had for a while--I plan to leave the back of the headstock quick thick, which will allow me to recess the tuners into the face of the headstock --that way I should achieve sufficient string tension without needing string trees.

For hardware, I'm using a single Gibson Legendary Series P-90, compensated wraparound bridge, volume + varitone, Grover locking tuners, Schaller straplocks. For the pickguard, I'm tempted to use a floating Les Paul/archtop style guard.

[Setch]

Cool. I've always liked the lognhorn design, and I'm chuffed you're making the neck for the guitar. Bass is looking good - I like that neck joint.

[Mickguard]

Routed the body edges today...I used two profiles--a narrower profile for the horns, because I didn't want to lose the squared off look (the Dano basses are more rounded, I believe, but I like the square look of the guitarlins). Next step: routing the control cavity...then time to sand.

Now I need to start making design choices for the guitar. Especially whether I should go for a

short neck or a long neck

I prefer the look of the long neck--more elegant, more true to the original. The short neck looks a bit squat. Because the LMI fretboard I bought has an extra 7 cm past the 22nd fret, I have the option of keeping that (the neck in the long neck photo has a 7 cm extension at the heel).

I don't like my chances of cutting extra fret slots, but they wouldn't be critical, so it wouldn't matter if they were perfect...I don't know how well it would look if I left the area fretless (but that could be real fun to play slide with).

If I go with the longer neck, I'd still build an extension on the neck, similar to the one in the photo...

Decisions, decisions...

(that's the neighbor, Babe, in the background...he likes the longer neck too )

[Mickguard]

Spent some time tweaking the guitar design:

and a third version with deeper curves at the neck:

I'm going with the longer neck--although I've compromised a bit. The rounded body is the same shape as before-- for the squared off body, I raised the upper line by about 15 mm to provide more neck support. I'm starting to lean toward the rounded body now, and especially the version with the deeper curves, if I can pull that off.

At this point though, I'm certain I'm going with a set neck. For one thing, I don't like my chances of 100 percent success for a first neck For another, I think the joint will be much more stable as a bolt on. Especially if I go with six bolts

I'm very encouraged by the neck joint on the Devestator bass --if it's stable enough for bass strings, it'll be stable enough for a guitar.

I'm still wondering about what the fretboard extension will look like without frets? I get the feeling it might look a little off...although it could be fun to add some kind of inlay or drawing there...

I should have time to route the control cavity on the bass today, and then all that'll be left to do will be the sanding.

[psw]

(that's the neighbor, Babe, in the background...he likes the longer neck too )

Oh "he"...and I was going to comment on the nice bit of french âne...err...donkey in the pic!

Anyway...I always liked the long horn look...but you got to have the long neck to go with it...maybe draw the frets on the fretless bit...but if you are building it, I'd be inclined to fret it anyway...if it's a little inacurate that won't matter too much as it's a little hard to play that high on those tiney frets anyway. Didn't the Dano have 31 frets or something? Also, you don't want the bridge to be pushed too far back by a shorter neck for playing comfort...but it looks A-oK so far....

No Pickguard on the plans?

pete

PS...I like the angled bass pickup...neat feature/solution!

[Mickguard]

Oh "he"...and I was going to comment on the nice bit of french âne...err...donkey in the pic!

Well, 'he' is relative since they castrated him...

Anyway...I always liked the long horn look...but you got to have the long neck to go with it...

I've always looked at the Dano neck as a gimmick though, it's one of the things that kept me from buying one. Hondo made a normal 22-fret version too, I almost bought one of those, but I didn't want the humbucker, didn't look right to me. But seeing the Hondo encouraged me to go for a 'normal' neck version.

Anyway, I've been toying with the design...and I keep coming back to the shorter neck.

One of the reasons for building the bass was to give me a prototype for the guitar (since the bass is less critical for me than the guitar). Happily, the neck I want to use as a template fits snugly in the neck pocket. So I can get a real world view of what the guitar will look and feel like.

And I like the way it looks too, no worries there--although I agree that the longer neck makes the whole thing a bit sleeker.

Still the guitar hangs really well with this neck --I have a strap on there, I can wear it like that-- I'd worry that the longer neck would pull the whole thing out of balance (the headstock dipped a slight bit with the bass neck on there--maybe that's why you always see pictures of Entwhistle and Bruce with the bass held up way high?).

There are other issues with the longer neck --for one, it puts the lower frets much farther away from the body than I like --because of the body shape. The longer neck also means moving the bridge closer to the neck joint, giving me a lot less playing space to work with. That's less of an issue, though, since I'm only planning on a single pickup.

One limitation with the shorter neck: getting to the upper frets requires shifting my hand in (same issue with my Rocket), which is a bit awkward. But I tend to focus on the lower 12 anyway.

These are inherent limitations to the lyre shape, I suppose.

The main thing though is that this is going to be my first neck --I really feel that I should just go easy on myself. I'll always be able to build a new guitar later down the road. That's the glory of this whole DIY thing, right?

No Pickguard on the plans?

I plan to use a more or less standard LP Jr. shaped pickguard ...don't have a CAD file for that, otherwise I'd add it in. I'll try attaching it and snapping a pic later in the day. Got to get to work!

edit: well, one of the benefits of working for myself is there's no one to tell me what to do (other than the wife, of course). Here's a mockup of the guitar, using my favorite tool, double-sided tape. Try to imagine the guitar as cherry red (though I like the tv yellow too).

[psw]

True, balance could be a problem, though with the long horn I thought it would have balanced it out a bit. Oh well. I think the 31 fret one was a guitarolin (half mandolin/half guitar)....the biggest issue would likely be the flexability of the neck with that many clear of the body...effecting tuning stability, strength, and "stuff"...so the shorter neck is probably the go.

Although that pickguard has no relation to the body shape, holds no controls, hides no holes or cavities...it looks really good....you are the pickguardian! Maybe a Sustainer in there one day in which case the shorter neck would be better...

pete

[Mickguard]

Oh yeah, a sustainer would be excellent...hmm, a stealth sustainer?

The nice part about the pickguard is it gives me lots of space for a tenon extension --so I can minimize the amount of heel block under the neck itself.

I plan on using carbon fiber rods in the neck, so that should keep things pretty stable --I bought a 1.5 hollow tube kite rod, that ought to do it!

[Mickguard]

Routed the cavity, drilled the holes for the pots, drilled all the screw holes (except for the pickguard...still need to shape that... working on a design for that). Also drilled the wire guides for the pickups and the bridge ground, and added a hole for my hanging stick.

The inner cavity is a little rough--I wasn't really certain how much of a lip I should leave for the screw holes, so I didn't round it completely. I'm tempted to leave it the way it is--but I'm also thinking of making a clear cover, so that will force me to clean it up. The outer recessed part fits the cover I have really well--with the finish on, the cover will fit pretty snug. I also used a bit to widen the cavity on the inside, although the pots I'm using are mini pots, so there's plenty of room.

I also fixed the tearout I had on the pickup cavity--if you look at the center portion treble side where the two pickups join, I lost a chunk out of that --I've rebuilt most of it, there's just a little sliver to add. With paint it should be invisible, since I don't want to use a pickguard there, and didn't want to buy a ring for them either. But I'm still interested in adding a bridge and pickup cover set, just haven't decided yet.

In the meantime, I've started sanding, so far just to 50 --I'll take it to 200 or so before I start finishing. But I'm going to London this weekend (first time!) so that's going to have to wait... (the spots you see on the horn are just darker grain, not gouges)

Also, I cut out the blanks for my necks --I'll take them down the road to a friend's later, we'll use his thicknesser to get them all squared up. I have enough for two necks --one will be a two-piece, which is deep enough for an angled headstock (although I might still make a drop down, because I kind of like the idea--seems easier for a first build).

The other blank will be a one-piece neck --when it's thicknessed, it'll be 35 mm deep...I have this idea of making an extreme drop down --instead of angling the neck, just dropping the tuning pegs low enough so that string trees won't be necessary.

Does anyone have an opinion on the feasibility of this plan? Or are there strength issues?

Right now I have to make a box for my amp --picked up a new Epi Valve Junior --what a great amp! They fixed the noise problem too. But it's still too loud for late-night play --I'm recording some new songs, and the amp really sounds best when it's cranked...I'm going to make a carpeted box that will help keep the volume down a bit...

[Mickguard]

'Bout time I updated this thread...

First off, I decided to add a belly carve to the bass, mainly in order to test out the look of it for the guitar:

I think I'll go for it on the guitar...if only because I think carving is the most fun part of building.

Meanwhile...well...shucks...

It's all Scott French's and Verhoeven's fault. After seeing their recent guitars, I just knew I had to make a hollowbody version too...meanwhile, I have this Fender telecaster neck that I took off my (failed) tele mod...so I thought I'd make a unicaster...Except, the idea quickly evolved...I decided to use the set of GFS Brooklyns I have here...

The wood's scrap ash, the cap will be maple. I plan to completely hollow the innards, adapting Scott's "tuning fork" frame to my own design. I also modified the neck area on both guitars to provide a bit more support. I'm thinking I'm going to try to mount all the controls through the side --I'll make a plate to hold the jack, and make a hole large enough to slide the pots and switch through.

I also plan to use tung oil for the finish, see if I prefer that to spraycans.

Like I said, I was going to use the Fender neck....but then I decided that I should make my own neck (using the fingerboard I pulled off another neck) as a practice for the other guitar's neck, which I really want to be a set neck (which is possible a record for the number of times the word 'neck' has ever been used in one sentence). So I figured I'd do better to make all my first-neck mistakes on a bolt-on neck. Including a plan to convert the neck for a zero fret...

I got started on the neck this week, I'll post photos once I've made a bit more progress. Already made my first mistakes though, so there's hope...

[GregP]

Awesome work so far! I've nothing of interest to contribute, but I wanted to give you some props.

Greg

[Mickguard]

Well then...

Today I shaped the neck:

It came out pretty well...the white strips are bars of 'composite' (in French--I bought them thinking they were carbon fiber...apparently they're fiberglass......but they should add plenty of stiffness nonetheless). Initially they measured 10 mm x 2.7 mm, but I shaved them down to just 8 mm width. We'll see how they behave --consider me your guinea pig.

One of the bars is slightly off center...it was actually the second one to be routed, but I got all excited about it and rushed the job. I've since figured out how to position the router bit on my lines...it looks like I got the truss rod routed pretty much on the center line, and that's the important one...

There's a slight gap next to one of the rods --should I bother filling that?

I originally wanted to use CF kite tubes, but I got nervous about routing the channels for them --the tubes are 6.5 mm wide, which means taking out a lot of wood. But I'd never used epoxy before (hence the sloppiness) so I didn't realize how solid it becomes. So next neck I'll go with the kite tubes.

I actually think the rods are probably overkill for this neck, since this wood seems really stable, but I really wanted to try them out. I don't know exactly what species this wood is though ....I took it from an old butcher's counter...it was rigged to hold the butcher's knives...Anyway, of all the different types of wood I've worked with so far, this one has been the easiest, at least with the router. Drills well too. We'll see how it does when carving. I liked it because I wanted a light-colored wood for this guitar.

Here's a pose with the fingerboard in place:

I sized it so there's a slight overhang at the end--just in case I butcher the end of the neck pocket, like I usually do.

You can see where the board discolored slightly from the iron when I was removing it from the old neck. Also one of the fret markers faded out. I plan on reshaping the edges of the board a bit too--I'd actually hacked up the neck last year, before I knew what I was doing (well, I still don't know, but I know enough to use the proper tools this time!)

Eventually though, if the neck works out, I'll be tempted to make my own fingerboard for it.

In the meantime, I'm preparing a second neck blank from scrap in order to practice carving...For one thing, I'm not sure I understand entirely how you're supposed to go about it, measurements-wise and all...I've read everything I can find, plan on reading some more. But I figure practicing on a real piece of wood is going to give me a lot more information.

I'm actually really looking forward to carving...I think it's going to be the most fun part of all.

But next step is to drill the tuner holes --I've already prepared a jig for that, and I've been practicing with it. Then I'll carve the slope and route away the top of the headstock, so I can drill the truss rod access hole. Once that's done, I'll glue on the board and get started carving...

And now that the heel is shaped more or less how it's going to be, I can route the neck pocket --been waiting to route out the insides until I know exactly where everything is supposed to sit. It actually makes sense to use the square neck to make the pocket, easier to clamp into position.

[Mickguard]

Oops

Well, it'd be freakish if I made no mistakes, right?

Anyway, every step in the building process is a new adventure for me...this is the first time I've attempted to drill tuner holes... for better or worse. My biggest hurdle is sometimes I get over-eager and jump right in without preparing things completely.

For example, I really meant to draw a line and work out the exact locations...using an existing 6-in-line neck as a guide. But in the process of getting the drill stand all set up and trying to figure out how to attach and clamp things down, I forgot all about the line...

But I really should have prepared a guide block anyway, since I know that the drill stand isn't all that accurate and wobbles a little (I'm going to break down and buy a proper drill press--with laser guide--eventually).

So I ended up filling most of the holes and trying again, this time with a guide block. The guide block itself isn't perfect (see comment about the drill press above) but it's much closer.

Here's the results:

With the bushings in, I'll be able to position things a little better, and the wiggliness in the line will be all but invisible. Hey, it's my first neck, waddya want?

Now, here's something else...I measured the holes on the two six-in-line necks I have. Both have 10 mm holes. That's including the finish --and pretty thick finish at that.

But when I measured the Grover locking tuners I'm using, the shaft (the thick part at the base that inserts into the holes from the back of the headstock) comes out as significantly less than 10 mm --actually more like 9.5 mm (or 9.55 mm). So they're basically loose in the other headstocks.

Now, I'm planning on using an oil finish for this neck, which means the build up in the tuners holes is going to be pretty minimal. And I can see no good reason for having loose tuners --seems to me that 0.5 mm of wiggle room can add up to significant wobble in the tuning of the guitar.

So I decided to drill with a 9.5 mm bit instead. This gives the tuners a tight fit into the headstock. Not so tight that it should crack the wood or anything. But they're snug enough to hold in place without requiring screws or bushings.

I figure the 10 mm spec exists to account for differences in finish thickness and tolerances on existing guitars. Maybe other tuners come in at exactly 10 mm? (I have a set of gotoh's that came off my MIJ strat and it's the same thing, they're not 10mm either)

Now, if I were to get really fancy, I'd drill the backside of the headstock for the 9.5 mm post and drill the topside of the headstock for the bushings--which are actually smaller than 8 mm in diameter at the thickest part.

So we're talking 2 mm of potential wiggle room for tuner heads in most guitars.

But given my difficulties in just getting simple holes lined up, I don't like my chances of making more complex holes --but maybe I can add some wrapping around the bushing (or find a proper sized washer) to position it in the hole?

Yeah, yeah, I know...one step at at time.

[Setch]

I'd check your drills with a caliper - all the tuners modern tuners I've used have fitted snugly in a 10mm hole. In fact, the locking Grovers on my 3rd guitar are held purely by the screw in bushing and friction - I never got round to drilling and installing the screws at the back, and it holds tune perfectly.

[Mickguard]

I'd check your drills with a caliper - all the tuners modern tuners I've used have fitted snugly in a 10mm hole. In fact, the locking Grovers on my 3rd guitar are held purely by the screw in bushing and friction - I never got round to drilling and installing the screws at the back, and it holds tune perfectly.

My caliper is currently misplaced...maybe it's time to clean up around here. I've been using a diameter guide to check things (although it doesn't give me half sizes and I don't trust it anyway). And yes, there's considerable variation among the various bits I have here. Some of that is cheapo tools, but the wood bits I have are supposedly high quality.

Anyway, I've complained before about the lack of precision in the measurements for tools I've been finding here...there's a lot of slack in pretty much everything. Even the ultra-expensive bearing bits I bought (don't remember the brand, but they're high-end stuff) are off --the blades are undersized from the bearings (and these are new bits too). It's just a fraction of a millimeter, but add that fraction to both sides of a neck template, and that fraction starts to get significant.

I mean, I'm trying to counteract my natural tendency toward haste and sloppiness, trying to gain a bit of accuracy here...but even the tools are working against me

To make matters worse, like I said, not only do I have a wobbly drill stand, but the chuck on my drill wobbles too. So I'm a candidate for a drill press down the road.

It's because of the wobbles that I switched to the 9.5 mm bit. At any rate, the Grovers fit snugly now.

But like I've said, I've checked the diameters of the Grovers, and the Gotohs, and I have another couple of sets of cheapo tuners around here...none fit snugly into the tuner holes on my existing guitars. All the tuners are slightly less than 10 mm (but I don't really trust the diameter guides I have here anyway), all the tuner holes are just about 10 mm (but that includes finish). So between the lack of accuracy of my tools, and the lack of precision of the guitar parts I have...

But I guess this sort of thing is what drives people toward better and better quality tools.

[marksound]

Not trying to derail here, but have you guys seen this?

The Longhorn is back

[Mickguard]

Not trying to derail here, but have you guys seen this?

The Longhorn is back

Oh yeah, I saw it...although I'm not sure it's actually been brought to market yet? Still, I'm thinking it's just going to be another shoddily constructed Asian-built 'licensed' instrument, no matter how cool it looks. And overpriced too, because of the Dano connection.

If I really wanted to buy one, I'd get the Jerry Jones version, they're supposed to be well built. Or the Hondo II version made by Tokai in the early 80s.

Although maybe I'm going to have to make a version with lipstick pickups...damn you marksound and your infernal internet links!

[thirdstone]

Ah so COOL . Love the Longhorns, good to see there are other sick puppys like myself. Should have done the dano headstock though.

maybe for anothr one.

I made one in the 90's with a gold floyd rose and a bling paint job (it was the end of thr hair bands ).

LONGHORN

rear

I took the trem off a couple of years ago and fitted a regular wood bridge. Much better.

Anyway I don't want to high jack the post .

Keep it going

Edited May 16, 2006 by thirdstone

[Mattia]

Uh, yes, because the original Dan-os were so well known for being quality workmanship.

No, wait...

[Mickguard]

rear

Ah very cool solution to the neck joint problem....I'm wondering how stable my neck joint will be on this one --I'm going with a standard bolt on heel. The side support for it will be pretty minimal ---I could place it closer to bottom end, and that would be more stable. But it wouldn't look right --this design really needs the neck to stick out pretty far ...I have the tips of the horns at just about the 12th fret.

So I'm counting on the screws to provide the stability for the joint. I'll be using inserts. Don't know how much that'll do...although I'm tempted to go with six screws just to make sure.

As for the headstock, well, I have a set of 6-in-lines here, that's why --But I've been trying to decide whether I should go ahead and convert it to the Dolphin style:

I think it'd work better with the overall design too.

Uh, yes, because the original Dan-os were so well known for being quality workmanship.

Which is exactly why I never wanted to buy one...

[soapbarstrat]

Yeah, let's see Gibson go through the trouble of putting wall-paper around the edge of their bodies !

[j. pierce]

I love this project, mick. Looking nice. I've never been a huge fan of the dolphin style, I say rock the tele vibe you've got going now. (Unless you want to go with a huge 70's fender headstock. Everything looks better with a huge 70's fender headstock.)

I've always been crazy about the dano-style - I've been thinking of building something in that vibe for a while a now.

Mark Hammer, whose page I used to read when I was building more effects ( and who posts some brilliant stuff over at Aron's DIY stompbox forums) had a bit about building some dano-style guitars a while back.

http://hammer.ampage.org/?cmd=lt&xid=&fid=&ex=&pg=2

scroll down to "dano-tech" towards the bottom of the page.

(BTW, that p'up arrive safe and sound?)

[Mickguard]

(BTW, that p'up arrive safe and sound?)

The pickup, along with all the fretting tools I bought, are in a box right now on their way here...except they were shipped by surface by mistake...so it's going to be a few more weeks...or months

Well, that won't slow me down too much, I have plenty to do with the current build, and I still have to finish the bass too...and there'll be plenty to do on the second guitar before I'll need to fret about fretting...(that one's for marksound)

For the headstock...I'll probably just leave well enough alone...I played around with the dolphin design, but it ends up looking a little silly....kind of like the real thing.

Danelectro may not have built the greatest guitars in the world, but they had a real sense of style...I especially like their take on the LP type single-cutaway shape..

[thirdstone]

Mickgard 6 screws should be okay for the neck join. The only reason I used that unusual join was so that I could put the neck pup around the second octave point and still have total neck access. If you are only having a bridge pup then you could have had an extended tenon through the body covered by the pickgard.

As 6 aside headstocks go the Dolphin style I don't mind. IMHO I would prefer that to the tele.