strummer2k Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 First off, I have one successful build under my belt and now a friend of mine wants me to build him something. He has come up with an original design and mocked it up in Photoshop (so not everything may be to scale). To me, it looks a bit like some of the old Ovation electrics that were around for a short while. We're going for a Brian May vibe and I want to put some ?Trisonic pickups in there instead of the humbuckers. Here is the mockup: This will have an opaque orange finish. So, the problem is that he is dead-set on the rounded edges as shown in the pic and I really, really want to chamber it because it sounded so good in my other build. For the sake of argument, let's say I use the traditional Mahogany back, Maple top approach and glue those together after chambering the body. Questions: 1) When I start to route the edges, am I likely to start chipping out the top, or tearing chunks out? 2) Under an opaque finish, is the seam between the two wood pieces gonna show? I have heard of glue kinda sinking back. Maybe covering the seam with epoxy would help (much like the grain fill process for Mahogany). 3) Is there anything special I need to know about installing a Bigsby? Thanks for any feedback. I know the horns need some work(doesn't look like you could get your hands in there comfortably) and some of the controls will have to move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 That design is bizarre but I really like it for some reason.. If it were me I's scrap those pointless little cutaways and make it a flowing curve. I know you'd be sacrificing some upper fret access, but it would look a lot better. reminds me of bo didley's guitar: http://www.edromanguitars.com/avail/guitar...ch/6138_950.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strummer2k Posted June 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 That design is bizarre but I really like it for some reason.. If it were me I's scrap those pointless little cutaways and make it a flowing curve. I know you'd be sacrificing some upper fret access, but it would look a lot better. reminds me of bo didley's guitar: http://www.edromanguitars.com/avail/guitar...ch/6138_950.jpg Well, my friend is pretty set on the horns, I am just trying to make it happen for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Friggin heck... upper fret access is WAY overrated! Acoustic steel-string guitars join at the 14th fret and I still reach all up in there. Just give'er! If you can rework it to get your hand in there, cool, otherwise don't sweat it. The link to Bo Diddley's guitar shows a distinct lack of upper-fret access. My bigger concern is-- how's he supposed to play it while sitting down? Slip, slip, sliding away.... Other than ergonomics, it looks hella nifty! Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitefly SA Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Ben, if he took out the cut aways then it would look exactly like a toilet seat as opposed to kind of like one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 (edited) Ben, if he took out the cut aways then it would look exactly like a toilet seat as opposed to kind of like one rolleyes.gif Its been done before: http://www.dealguitars.com/bio.htm http://www.cheekshow.biz/images/Toilet%20seat.jpg http://www.basista.eu.org/fun/2005_10_21/n...ar%20toilet.jpg You could use a toilet seat for the body blank! you'd have the pickup route pre-done for you as a bonus Its a bit harsh saying it looks like a toilet seat though I actually like the design. Edited June 7, 2006 by Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strummer2k Posted June 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Alright, very funny on the toilet seat thing. Like I said - not my design. Now can anyone help with the questions I had? Questions: 1) When I start to route the edges, am I likely to start chipping out the top, or tearing chunks out? 2) Under an opaque finish, is the seam between the two wood pieces gonna show? I have heard of glue kinda sinking back. Maybe covering the seam with epoxy would help (much like the grain fill process for Mahogany). 3) Is there anything special I need to know about installing a Bigsby? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitefly SA Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 sorry about the toilet seat comment, it wasn't my intention to insult you im just not a fan of those type of shapes, like the vox teardrop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strummer2k Posted June 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 sorry about the toilet seat comment, it wasn't my intention to insult you im just not a fan of those type of shapes, like the vox teardrop I am not the least bit offended. Honestly. It isn't something I would build for myself. I am just trying to get some answers, but I guess no one has run into any of these issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 I've used roundover bits on cherry and maple, and there's no more or less risk of tearout than any other routing job. Maybe there's even a bit less, but that could've just been my imagination. So, the roundover shouldn't be a "special" problem, though you always need to take care. As for chambering, I think people are hesitant to answer because they're not sure if they're missing something by pointing out the obvious: just chamber it only as close to the edges as you can go without getting into the rounded over part... problem solved. If your roundover bit has a 1/4" radius, then don't go any closer to the edge than 1/4" and you should have no problem. Depending on the thickness of the cap/drop-top, give yourself an extra fraction of an inch for wiggle room. Regarding the glue: If you've glued the top to the body nicely, there won't be any significant gap left. In some cases, it's so seamless that you can't even tell that 2 pieces of the same species have been glued up. I wouldn't sweat something like "shrinkback" at this stage of the game. By the time you've finished'er up, there won't have been enough shrinkage to even notice. And in the worst case scenario-- is it so bad to see a little line? The difference in colour and woodgrain will already show that they're 2 different pieces. That's my opinion, anyhow. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strummer2k Posted June 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 I've used roundover bits on cherry and maple, and there's no more or less risk of tearout than any other routing job. Maybe there's even a bit less, but that could've just been my imagination. So, the roundover shouldn't be a "special" problem, though you always need to take care. As for chambering, I think people are hesitant to answer because they're not sure if they're missing something by pointing out the obvious: just chamber it only as close to the edges as you can go without getting into the rounded over part... problem solved. If your roundover bit has a 1/4" radius, then don't go any closer to the edge than 1/4" and you should have no problem. Depending on the thickness of the cap/drop-top, give yourself an extra fraction of an inch for wiggle room. Regarding the glue: If you've glued the top to the body nicely, there won't be any significant gap left. In some cases, it's so seamless that you can't even tell that 2 pieces of the same species have been glued up. I wouldn't sweat something like "shrinkback" at this stage of the game. By the time you've finished'er up, there won't have been enough shrinkage to even notice. And in the worst case scenario-- is it so bad to see a little line? The difference in colour and woodgrain will already show that they're 2 different pieces. That's my opinion, anyhow. Greg Thanks for the input, yeah, my main worry was tearing up the maple cap when I rounded it, but now that you mention it, it really isn't much different than routing for binding. My hope is to make it end up looking like a single piece of wood since the color will be a solid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Oh yeah. Well, if it's a solid then I especially wouldn't worry about it. All those 2- and 3-piece body blanks you see... the glue join may be "up and down" instead of "laterally" (trying to think of better terms) but it's the same idea. You don't see a 3-piece Fender body with these 2 mysterious lines through them where the glue shrank back. I'd say you're sweating a non-issue. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. pierce Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Do the routing in a couple of passes, lowering the bit a little each time for extra insurance, and you should be fine. As far as showing a line, depends on the finish - I've heard of some waterbase glues showing glue-lines under waterbase finishes, but if you get a proper glue line you should be fine. If you do your grain-fill with something like System 9 epoxy, than I can't imagine you'd have a problem, but honestly, from what I know about finishing (granted, I've only done a handful of guitars, but I have done a deal of woodworking finishing) you shouldn't have a problem if you do a proper join. A helpful method I did on my last build so I wouldn't cut the control cavity too close to the bevel (not a chambering, but same problem) was to bevel the back the same as the front, and that gave me something to look at and gauge by as I cut the bevel. (I would have bevelled the front, but I made the oversized cavity before I glued the front on, then cut out the opening to the cover) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Just to tack onto this thread, since it's a propos: I'm chambering a body right now. Is there any reason to seal the wood with some kind of finish before putting the top on? For the sides thing, I've read that if you rough the wood a bit with coarse sandpaper (not enough to screw up the level surface), the fibers of the wood will mesh together better and you'll end up with a less visible glue line. I haven't actually tried it myself yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Mick: in a word, no. Leave the inside unfinished, unless you care what it looks like/want to be able to clean it more easily. 99.99% of all acoustic guitars (thinner plates, more finicky when it comes to humidity) have unfinished insides, finished outsides, works fine. As for glue joints: the best joint you can get is two freshly planed surfaces. None of this 'rough up the surface' bull****. Next best is freshly scraped (sharp scraper), followed by sanding. The whole 'sanding/gouging increases surface area' makes no sense, because you want minimum distance between the parts to be glued, and minimum glue in there. It's a wood to wood joint with a tiny glue interface, not a wood-glue-wood sandwich you're after. If I have to sand and then glue, I prefer to use 220grit, and clean out as much dust/gunk from the pores as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. pierce Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Just to tack onto this thread, since it's a propos: I'm chambering a body right now. Is there any reason to seal the wood with some kind of finish before putting the top on? For the sides thing, I've read that if you rough the wood a bit with coarse sandpaper (not enough to screw up the level surface), the fibers of the wood will mesh together better and you'll end up with a less visible glue line. I haven't actually tried it myself yet. "Roughing up" the surfaces prior to gluing does make a less visible glue line at times, but to me, it seems to be a cosmetic approach to fixing what was destined to be a sloppy glue joint to begin with. I've done that on some non-structural joints on a general woodworking before, in areas, where things weren't mating quite right, to hide the glue line. But a guitar or anywhere it counts, it shouldn't be necessary because your surfaces should be pretty much as perfectly matched as you can get them before you glue. Perfectly mated up surfaces make basically invisible glue joints. As far as the chambering thing, I asked that question prior to topping off my chambered build, and these where the responses I got from others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 As far as the chambering thing, I asked that question prior to topping off my chambered build, and these where the responses I got from others. I tried searching, and didn't find quite what I was looking for in the archives, sorry if it's there and I missed it. Oops...should have searched first...what can I say, all the routing I did today has me exhausted... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 I am making note; Mattia and I disagree on a point (pretty rare ). I am of the opinion that if you finish one side finish the other (by that I mean a light wash coat). I was watching a Bendetto vid. the other day and noted he believes the same (so at least I know I am not alone). I don't think it is required, but what is the harm in a little insurance. If I didn't do it I wouldn't lose any sleep over it though. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Hehehe....I'm pondering a light shellac wash on the insides of my back/side assembly, just because I figure it'll look really clean, but I won't do the same for the top, which is the bit most likely to need repairs at some point. I know shellac comes off easy, but still. And I'm certainly not gonna start shellacing my semihollow electrics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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