Pickup Swap Disappoints

[vpcnk]

i bought a gibson hawk a couple of months back. prior to that i already had a blueshawk with "blues" 90 pickups. when i got the hawk which had two 490R humbuckers the first thing i noticed when i plugged it in was that it simply "boomed". i dont know how to describe it - the sound was softer than the blues 90s - but it was louder and fuller. even with the volume set to 1 or 2 it was very audible.

but i wanted to improve on it. doing some research on the hawk i discovered that it used 300k pots. then i also heard about the seymour duncan jb and 59.

so off i went to a prominent shop in nyc and swapped the stock pots and pickups for 500k and sd jb and 59.

yesterday i got it back. i plugged it in. and the "boom" is gone. yes there's greater clarity but the loudness is gone. with the stock pickups even at the volume and tone set to 2 and 3, the guitar used to be loud. now to get the same level of sound i have to raise the volume and tone to double - 4 and 5.

what gives?

and i looked at the stock pots and pickups (now dismantled) - there's no indication as which model they are - 300k or 490R etc.

appreciate the feedback.

[vpcnk]

btw what i mean is that the sound is now lower and weaker.

is this to be expect of sd pickups when compared to gibson pickups or is there something wrong with the installation?

[al heeley]

If you've got different pots in there the taper is bound to be a little different, the ramp in resistance change as you get close to zero.

It's not really normal, is it, to play live with vol set only at 2 or 3, well not for me anyway. It also sounds like the new pickups are maybe not as high output as the old ones. However, your amp is there for giving you volume, I certainly would not worry about this, but are you happy with the tone?

[vpcnk]

If you've got different pots in there the taper is bound to be a little different, the ramp in resistance change as you get close to zero.

It's not really normal, is it, to play live with vol set only at 2 or 3, well not for me anyway. It also sounds like the new pickups are maybe not as high output as the old ones. However, your amp is there for giving you volume, I certainly would not worry about this, but are you happy with the tone?

my concern was more about the loss of sound and volume. it used to sound full and thick - now it sounds weak.

can you elaborate more on your point about the pot taper being different. i thought that the 500k pots will open up the humbuckers than the stock 300k pots.

the seymour duncan jb and 59 are quite popular pickups and the gibson 490s are only moderate output pickups and not considered "hot" like the gibson 496 or 498 or dirty fingers.

[al heeley]

if it sounds weak and thin then could you have one of the polarities wrong?

On the pot taper thing, you can get log taper (A) pots (mostly used for tone ctrl) and linear taper ( pots, more usual for volume. What I was trying to say was that if one goes from 500 ohm resistance at 0 to zero resistance at 10 it may not be a linear transition, even in a lnear taper pot. The log pots normally allow greater turn for a smaller change, eg between 7 and 10 if that makes sense. There's no reason why you can't use a lower value pot if you want a brighter sound.

The important question is when the vol is on 10 do they still sound weak and thin? If so then it sounds like a wiring issue. Aer they 2-wire or 4-conductor for coil-tapping?

[spazzyone]

its not the SD's the jb is a "hot" pickup

id say its your pots as the SD's are recomended with 500k's

wich will open them up a bit more and give a little more top end

[crafty]

Try putting the 300k's back in. 300k sounds very nice with the JB. The '59 was a waste of money because it's basically the same thing as a 490R. The 500k pots will actually help the treble response and overall output of the pickups, but the low end will suffer and that's why you're losing the "boom".

[lovekraft]

with the stock pickups even at the volume and tone set to 2 and 3, the guitar used to be loud. now to get the same level of sound i have to raise the volume and tone to double - 4 and 5.

What do the new pickups sound like with the tone and volume set to 10?

[Mattia]

with the stock pickups even at the volume and tone set to 2 and 3, the guitar used to be loud. now to get the same level of sound i have to raise the volume and tone to double - 4 and 5.

What do the new pickups sound like with the tone and volume set to 10?

Well, quite.

I have volume controls on my guitars, but they rarely go below, say, 8 or so. Unless I'm mixing the two. None of my 500K pot guitars sounds 'great' with the volume on the guitar set to 2. None.

[vpcnk]

actually i played it over the weekend and now feel that my initial reaction might have been a bit hasty.

yes the 'boom' is gone and the volume is lower - but the sound is clearer.

but if i raise the volume to 7 or 8, it is pretty loud.

and now i have clear sound distinction between the two pickups - the 59 and the jb.

if what crafty says is true regarding losing the lower end in the 500k pot, then i should say that the difference is very noticable between the 300k and the 500k pot - in terms of low end reproduction.

[lovekraft]

Seriously, have you tried playing with the guitar wide open? That's the only way you'll ever know what your pickups sound like - turn your amp down if it's too loud. I've been playing for over thirty years, and I can count the times I turned my volume below 7 or so (while playing) on one hand. besides, since the noise level of your cables, pedals and amp is fixed (for any given situation), turning down the guitar is tantamount to turning the noise level up. Just my take on this - as always, YMMV.

Edited November 21, 2006 by lovekraft

[Mickguard]

but if i raise the volume to 7 or 8, it is pretty loud.

VP, these guys are trying to be gentle, but you're not paying attention.

Here's what you do....walk over to your amplifier. Now, turn the volume knob on that down--there might be two: turn down the one marked 'master'

Now, turn the volume and tone on the guitar all the way up. All the way.

Adjust the volume on the amp until you get the loudness you're looking for.

After that, you can play with the knobs on the guitar to nuance the tone a bit, blend the pickups, etc.

Seems odd to me that you have two high end guitars and you don't understand how to use them.

Obviously the guitar sounded 'boomy' --with the volume and tone knobs that low, you were cutting out most of the high frequencies. And I'm guessing that if the volume on the guitar was that low, then your amp is really loud.

The guitar only sounds a little clearer now because you exchanged the 300k pot with a 500k--which allows more of the high frequencies to pass through. This has nothing to do with the pickup. You wasted your money on this one. Consider returning the guitar to stock.

And try spending a little time learning about the knobs on your amp too.

[vpcnk]

hey i can understand that you can make anything work - on a relative level.

but my question was not about the pickups in themselves - but how they compared to the stock pickups/pots.

and my gibson ga-5 amp is as simple as it gets - it has only a single volume control and nothing else! so there's little confusion there.

the boom with the earlier setup existed even when i turned the volume up. the stock setup was significantly louder than the new one - so noticable that i felt the need to write about it here.

>You wasted your money on this one.

on which?

>Consider returning the guitar to stock.

the pickups or the pots?

appreciate the feedback.

Seriously, have you tried playing with the guitar wide open? That's the only way you'll ever know what your pickups sound like - turn your amp down if it's too loud. I've been playing for over thirty years, and I can count the times I turned my volume below 7 or so (while playing) on one hand. besides, since the noise level of your cables, pedals and amp is fixed (for any given situation), turning down the guitar is tantamount to turning the noise level up. Just my take on this - as always, YMMV.

i normally set the amp volume at 70% of the total volume so that i dont have to keep going back to it and adjust only the volume/tone of the guitar as i need it to be.

sorry guys i am quite new to the electric guitar - i played an acoustic for years - and so probably am not clear about the fundamentals.

[crafty]

Hey, I think everyone's being a little hard on you here for no reason. I do the same thing you do by turning the amp up and the guitar down. There's nothing wrong with that and I think most people just keep the guitar on 10 and the amp on 2 and there's nothing wrong with that either. If it keeping the guitar volume down works for Clapton, Hendrix, Page, Les Paul, and Yngwie, it'll work for you too.

What I would do is restore the guitar back to the 300k pots and see how the pickups sound then. I think it'll help cut some of the bite on the JB and warm up the '59 a little too. I personally wouldn't have bought a '59 just because you already had the 490R, but lesson learned.

Edited November 21, 2006 by crafty

[Desopolis]

I agree they are being harsh.

try the 300K pots,

did you change the Cap as well?

My amp is insanly loud past 4, I allways use the guitar volume to level it out. Especially with my Super hot pickups.

[vpcnk]

I agree they are being harsh.

try the 300K pots,

did you change the Cap as well?

My amp is insanly loud past 4, I allways use the guitar volume to level it out. Especially with my Super hot pickups.

no - i did not change the cap - if you mean the tone capacitator.

in an earlier thread i had asked if the cap too need to be replaced if the pots are being replaced - but i was told it was not necessary. so ...

[lovekraft]

I don't think anybody's been particularly harsh - if I was perceived as harsh or demeaning, I certainly apologize, but I think you guys are still missing the point. Reading the very first post, we find the following:

...even with the volume set to 1 or 2 it was very audible...now to get the same level of sound i have to raise the volume and tone to double - 4 and 5.

Now, I know that a lot of you adjust your volume from the guitar, but given the intrinsic nature of a passive electric guitar with magnetic pickups, I'd be willing to wager that not one of you regularly plays his guitar with the volume set between 1 and 2 (nor 4 and 5, for that matter), and on the off chance that you do, you're losing enough high end to obscure the actual sound of your pickups - that's a simple fact of life. Everyone is entitled to use his equipment his own way, but some methods cause unintended side-effects that users need to be made aware of. 'Nuff said! Of course, fi you're running EMGs, none of the preceding applies to you, so you can ignore it.

The other thing that nobody (including me) has even considered is the fact that if the old pots were linear taper and the replacements are audio taper, the 4-5 range on the new pots is about the same as the 1-2 range on the old ones. Since Gibson is notorious for using linear volume pots, that's a fairly likely scenario. vpcnk, do you know what the taper of those pots is?

Edited November 22, 2006 by lovekraft

[crafty]

The other thing that nobody (including me) has even considered is the fact that if the old pots were linear taper and the replacements are audio taper, the 4-5 range on the new pots is about the same as the 1-2 range on the old ones. Since Gibson is notorious for using linear volume pots, that's a fairly likely scenario. vpcnk, do you know what the taper of those pots is?

Oh, hey Bill, I didn't think you were being particularly harsh or anything. I agree that the range on the pot IS going to be completely different on the new pots. I just think he's not wrong for wanting to use the controls on the guitar to control the overall volume of his playing. My style includes turning the amp up and the guitar down, so that's why I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I do think that any change you do to a guitar is going to CAUSE a change and it could be good or bad. In this case, I think it may not have been a good thing initially, but I bet if he puts the 300k's back in it'll help.

[al heeley]

The other thing that nobody (including me) has even considered is the fact that if the old pots were linear taper and the replacements are audio taper, the 4-5 range on the new pots is about the same as the 1-2 range on the old ones.

Ermm, that was one of the first things i mentioned in this thread.

[Mickguard]

My harshness level depends on how far I'm into my morning coffee pot.

VP, seems to me you have a bit of a Gibson fetish...well, I don't blame you for that!

On the other hand, it seems to me that the GA-5 might not be the best amp for you (or better put, the only amp). It's a Class A amp, it's not really meant for home use, unless you're able to play loudly all the time. I like my Epiphone Valve Junior lot (it's a GA-5 clone) but ultimately it's not really practical. I end up using a preamp pedal in front of it, which defeats the purpose.

If you can, then I'd say get yourself fitted for a set of musician's earplugs and then open up both the guitar and the amp --you'll find a whole world of difference in tone.

But I'd also suggest investing in another amp that gives you more control of your preamp and master levels, and one with a true EQ section as well. It'll be more versatile for you in the long run.

And I still think you should return the guitar to stock--try out a different amp first, before you decide on changing the electronics.

[lovekraft]

The other thing that nobody (including me) has even considered is the fact that if the old pots were linear taper and the replacements are audio taper, the 4-5 range on the new pots is about the same as the 1-2 range on the old ones.

Ermm, that was one of the first things i mentioned in this thread.

Sorry, Al, no disrespect intended - I was so astounded that somebody was playing their guitar with the volume set between 1 and 2 that I must have missed it! Mea culpa!

[vpcnk]

The other thing that nobody (including me) has even considered is the fact that if the old pots were linear taper and the replacements are audio taper, the 4-5 range on the new pots is about the same as the 1-2 range on the old ones. Since Gibson is notorious for using linear volume pots, that's a fairly likely scenario. vpcnk, do you know what the taper of those pots is?

that's interesting. the guitar tech at manny's music where i did the swap, had some no-name brand which had some marking as "cts" - which i hear is a reliable maker of pots.

not sure if it was linear or audio taper - would that have an effect in the loudness?

the gibson hawk i have was made in 1996 - would it have been linear taper?

but thanks for the pointer. i'm probably going to take it back to the shop and i'll ask them to check it out.

The other thing that nobody (including me) has even considered is the fact that if the old pots were linear taper and the replacements are audio taper, the 4-5 range on the new pots is about the same as the 1-2 range on the old ones. Since Gibson is notorious for using linear volume pots, that's a fairly likely scenario. vpcnk, do you know what the taper of those pots is?

btw i checked out the pots on the net - seems like current available gibson linear pots are only 300k. all 500k pots seem to be audio taper.