imgettingcloser Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 Hey everybody, Quick question. I just finished building my first set neck guitar, and when I got it strung up and tuned the glue gave out on the neck to neck pocket joint. I used tite bond professional wood glue. Can anybody tell me what would work, different type of glue maybe? Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 (edited) How tight was the fit for your mortise and tenon joint? Any gaps between any faces and that type of glue will not do squat to hold things together. If that is the case then one option is to use epoxy, minimal shrinkage and can fill those gaps very well. If your joint was tight enough to begin with and the titebond failed then perhaps it was not cured enough? I can't say for sure because most everyone here who has a few builds under their respective belts will swear to titebond's effectiveness. But your joint(s) have to be fitting well for titebond to do its thing. Edited November 24, 2006 by Southpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 Wow! Do you have any pics of the neck joint? Hard to tell what could be the cause with NO pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 Titebond Original is the wood of choice for me. Southpa's right, though; you want a press-fit, fairly tight, on any set-neck guitar. No slop, no thick glue lines. I don't really buy into the 'starving the glue joint' by overclamping theory (I clamp quite enthusiastically), but assuming there's a good fit, good coverage (thin, even layer of glue on all sides of the joint), a clamp time of at least 30 minutes, followed by 24 hours of NOT stressing/straining the joint, and assuming the glue is fresh enough (1 year, 1.5 years old max; check the MIMF library to find out how to read the date codes), and the glue's never been in crazy cold temperatures, and you glued up at a reasonable, warm-ish temperature, you're fine. Cold, glue age, insufficient glue in the joint are the only glue-related reasons I can think of for titebon failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 Unless the glue was bad. Titebond original is not the issue. If the joint was sloppy that could be the problem. If the glue did not have enough cure time that could be the problem. If the wood was wet that could be the problem. If the joint was good over clamping would not be the problem, but if it was sloppy(ruff) and you clamped very hard it could have starved the joint(this is generally the overclamping scenerio, as most of the woods we use are hard enough to require a substantial amount of clamping force anyway). If the humidity was extra high that could have been a problem. If you put too much glue on and did not use enough pressure that could be the problem. The list goes on..... You need to give us more info or at least a picture or two. These joints are not going to fail immediatly no matter what glue you used(some may have issues down the road though). Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spazzyone Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 all the above are correct we use titebond original only and never have any problems so it must be your joint/curing time or your suface prep how smooth was the wood surface in the joints? too smoothe and glue penetration become's an issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imgettingcloser Posted November 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 Thanks everyone for the help. Here are two pics after it came apart. I noticed that there was no glue left on the back of the neck only in the pocket, and the glue looked a bit patchey to me as well. Cure time is not the issue as it was sitting for at least 2 months before it got strings on it. I did clamp it pretty tight, the back of the neck was sanded too 320 not sure if that could be an issue being to smooth. I'm also pretty sure that my joint is sloppy as I said this is the first set neck I every tried. Do you guys think I should try and sand and scape the old glue out, sand the back of the neck where it sits in the pocket to 120, brush more tite bond in thicker and covering the whole pocket evenley sides and all, then reclamp. or would I be better off going with epoxy incase the joint isn't very good? Thanks again, everybody has been a great help. I was amazed how fast I was getting replies to my question. Scott http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q198/im...er/IMG_0713.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spazzyone Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 only you could know how sloppy the joint is as i cant tell by the pics how loose does the neck feel in the pocket? does it drop right in or does it require a press fit? how much does it move side to side? 320 grit on a glue joint is a bit smooth but it also looks like mahogany in which case the pores help with glue area as the glue seeps into them but yes 120 would be better also its a short tennon set neck (something i hate) as its less glue area in the first place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imgettingcloser Posted November 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 only you could know how sloppy the joint is as i cant tell by the pics how loose does the neck feel in the pocket? does it drop right in or does it require a press fit? how much does it move side to side? 320 grit on a glue joint is a bit smooth but it also looks like mahogany in which case the pores help with glue area as the glue seeps into them but yes 120 would be better also its a short tennon set neck (something i hate) as its less glue area in the first place I would say that it is a bit sloppy, not as perfect as I would have liked. As for fit though it isn't loose at all no movment side to side. and you have to put a little preasure on it to get it in but not alot. So you think I should clean it up and glue the hell out of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 Before you applied the glue....could you press the neck in and pick the whole guitar up by the neck, and not have the body fall off? That's one test, but it doesn't test the fit of the tenon to the bottom of the neck pocket. If you have a sloppy joint, you don't want to use Titebond to fill the gap, you need epoxy. But also the Titebond has essentially sealed the wood grain, so the epoxy won't bond as well as if the wood were freshly sanded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imgettingcloser Posted November 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 Before you applied the glue....could you press the neck in and pick the whole guitar up by the neck, and not have the body fall off? That's one test, but it doesn't test the fit of the tenon to the bottom of the neck pocket. If you have a sloppy joint, you don't want to use Titebond to fill the gap, you need epoxy. But also the Titebond has essentially sealed the wood grain, so the epoxy won't bond as well as if the wood were freshly sanded. No, it wasn't that tight of a fit, I could pick it up without the two coming apart put it would become loose. So you think sand as much if not all glue from the pocket and use epoxy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 I see a big hollow right on the back of your neck tenon, which happens to coincide with the big dry patch in your neck pocket. Put a straightedge along the back of the tenon (lengthwise) and you will see what I mean. No wood-to-wood contact there! As mentioned the tenon must be a tight(ish) fit in the pocket to glue it right. I would also say your tenon is a tad on the short side, some folks might argue that point, but I like lots of wood in there. You have a few options. 1. Cut (or sand) the back of the neck tenon so its flat to give more surface contact with its matching face in the pocket. You will have to adjust your bridge height to compensate. If your neck sits too low then you could glue in a matching shim to bring things back up to the original level. 2. Leave as is and goop some 2-part epoxy in there to fill all the gaps. And if your neck still doesn't stay put because the tenon is too short... 3. Drill some holes, get a neck plate and resort to a bolt-on neck. Its still nice to have options, good luck with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imgettingcloser Posted November 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 I see a big hollow right on the back of your neck tenon, which happens to coincide with the big dry patch in your neck pocket. Put a straightedge along the back of the tenon (lengthwise) and you will see what I mean. No wood-to-wood contact there! As mentioned the tenon must be a tight(ish) fit in the pocket to glue it right. I would also say your tenon is a tad on the short side, some folks might argue that point, but I like lots of wood in there. You have a few options. 1. Cut (or sand) the back of the neck tenon so its flat to give more surface contact with its matching face in the pocket. You will have to adjust your bridge height to compensate. If your neck sits too low then you could glue in a matching shim to bring things back up to the original level. 2. Leave as is and goop some 2-part epoxy in there to fill all the gaps. And if your neck still doesn't stay put because the tenon is too short... 3. Drill some holes, get a neck plate and resort to a bolt-on neck. Its still nice to have options, good luck with it. I was leaning at using epoxy. And I thought about going to the bolt on as a last resort. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spazzyone Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 I see a big hollow right on the back of your neck tenon, which happens to coincide with the big dry patch in your neck pocket. Put a straightedge along the back of the tenon (lengthwise) and you will see what I mean. No wood-to-wood contact there! As mentioned the tenon must be a tight(ish) fit in the pocket to glue it right. I would also say your tenon is a tad on the short side, some folks might argue that point, but I like lots of wood in there. much better eye than mine i thought that was just the glue area and as i said before i mad hate short tennons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 Sorry to be off topic... imgettingcloser, could you please measure how long that neck pocket of yours is? I'm making a PRS style guitar and the neck pocket is basically identical to yours. I'm just concerned that I'd have to make it pass the pickup route. Would this be on the safe side? -Click- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imgettingcloser Posted November 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 Sorry to be off topic... imgettingcloser, could you please measure how long that neck pocket of yours is? I'm making a PRS style guitar and the neck pocket is basically identical to yours. I'm just concerned that I'd have to make it pass the pickup route. Would this be on the safe side? -Click- The neck pocket measures 2 7/8 inches deep. I just want all the way to the back of the first pickup cavity, and then measured my scale length. But if you read above you can see where i'm at now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 I noticed that there was no glue left on the back of the neck only in the pocket, and the glue looked a bit patchey to me as well. http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q198/im...er/IMG_0713.jpg To me, that looks like 1) The mating surfaces aren't flat and are not providing full contact which is why the glue didn't spread evenly 2) No glue was applied on the sides of the tenon. Also, were both surfaces clean and dust free? Did you get glue squeeze out when you clamped everything together? 320 Grit is fine for glue ups. Never had any problems, even with close pored wood like maple. I would avoid Epoxy for now until you really understand the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 Sorry to be off topic... imgettingcloser, could you please measure how long that neck pocket of yours is? I'm making a PRS style guitar and the neck pocket is basically identical to yours. I'm just concerned that I'd have to make it pass the pickup route. Would this be on the safe side? -Click- The neck pocket measures 2 7/8 inches deep. I just want all the way to the back of the first pickup cavity, and then measured my scale length. But if you read above you can see where i'm at now In Mevlyn Hiscock's book "Make Your Own Electric Guitar", the first building exercise shows that he uses a 70x40mm tenon, which is shorter than 2-7/8" and yours is wider too. I wouldn't be too worried about the tenon length at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imgettingcloser Posted November 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 I noticed that there was no glue left on the back of the neck only in the pocket, and the glue looked a bit patchey to me as well. http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q198/im...er/IMG_0713.jpg To me, that looks like 1) The mating surfaces aren't flat and are not providing full contact which is why the glue didn't spread evenly 2) No glue was applied on the sides of the tenon. Also, were both surfaces clean and dust free? Did you get glue squeeze out when you clamped everything together? 320 Grit is fine for glue ups. Never had any problems, even with close pored wood like maple. I would avoid Epoxy for now until you really understand the problem. After looking at it closer I noticed that there wasn't any glue on the side of the tenon ( dum mistake ). Also I agree that I don't think both surfacees are sitting flat with each other. Why would you not use the epoxy? What are the bad effects of useing it? Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted November 25, 2006 Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 all the above are correct we use titebond original only and never have any problems so it must be your joint/curing time or your suface prep how smooth was the wood surface in the joints? too smoothe and glue penetration become's an issue only you could know how sloppy the joint is as i cant tell by the pics how loose does the neck feel in the pocket? does it drop right in or does it require a press fit? how much does it move side to side? 320 grit on a glue joint is a bit smooth but it also looks like mahogany in which case the pores help with glue area as the glue seeps into them but yes 120 would be better also its a short tennon set neck (something i hate) as its less glue area in the first place I just wanted to point something out. USFS studied surface prep for optimal glue prep. They determined the best surface was a freshly planed(cut w/blade) one. Sanding was best if it was done 150 grit or finer, but the surface had to be cleaned as much as possible because any dust weakened the bond. Just thought it was worth a mention. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester Posted November 25, 2006 Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 (edited) In Mevlyn Hiscock's book "Make Your Own Electric Guitar", the first building exercise shows that he uses a 70x40mm tenon, which is shorter than 2-7/8" and yours is wider too. I wouldn't be too worried about the tenon length at this point. Don't remember reading that in the book... But thanks! Edited November 25, 2006 by Jester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted November 25, 2006 Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 Why would you not use the epoxy? What are the bad effects of useing it? You need to understand the problem before you find a solution. Jumping to using expoxy without a good understanding of what the problem is may not solve your problem. That's just my opinion though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imgettingcloser Posted November 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 (edited) Edited November 25, 2006 by imgettingcloser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imgettingcloser Posted November 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 I just wanted to say thanks to everyone that replied and helped me with my problem. The guitar is now fixed and it playes and sounds much better then I thought it would for only my second build and fist that was a set neck. Also thought I would share some pisc of it. They were taken inside and don't show much of the gloss in the finish, but thanks again. IGC Pic #2 Body Pic Body Pic #2 Headstock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 Excellent build! Great to hear that your problem has been sorted :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.